[CobraMarty]

Compared to the stock N54 intake manifold-
At 18lbs of Boost we were able to gain +23hp and +16ft/lbs of torque peak gains! With this new intake manifold.

N/A gains? +11hp and +8tq over the N54 intake?

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

Compared to the stock N54 intake manifold-
At 18lbs of Boost we were able to gain +23hp and +16ft/lbs of torque peak gains! With this new intake manifold.

N/A gains? +11hp and +8tq over the N54 intake?

Doubtful. That was made for a Turbo car, chances are little to no consideration was made for cylinder fill, or volume - probably loses a bunch of low end power to just add a few HP at top.

And for 3k, there would be better options (custom)

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

Doubtful. That was made for a Turbo car, chances are little to no consideration was made for cylinder fill, or volume - probably loses a bunch of low end power to just add a few HP at top.

And for 3k, there would be better options (custom)

It's 2k but I agree a custom intake manifold would be the route I would go. Spend a bit more and get more. You have to fab up a pipe anyways. Might as well get it all done at once.

What happens if you dyno with no intake manifold at all?

[W37V]

Originally Posted by Torgus

It's 2k but I agree a custom intake manifold would be the route I would go. Spend a bit more and get more. You have to fab up a pipe anyways. Might as well get it all done at once.

What happens if you dyno with no intake manifold at all?

BPC did it. IIRC, It didn’t yield anything. To my recollection, The highest gains were with hacked off regular single stage intake manifold.

Out of all combinations, the highest tq gain were with 3im. N54 yielded high rpm hp gains.

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by W37V

BPC did it. IIRC, It didn’t yield anything. To my recollection, The highest gains were with hacked off regular single stage intake manifold.

Out of all combinations, the highest tq gain were with 3im. N54 yielded high rpm hp gains.

Hmm makes you wonder if you should just do that and plastiweld a printed IM to it Or scan and print a full manifold. Probably more work than it is worth.

Well it sounds like the biggest restriction is after the IM imo.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Torgus

Hmm makes you wonder if you should just do that and plastiweld a printed IM to it Or scan and print a full manifold. Probably more work than it is worth.

Well it sounds like the biggest restriction is after the IM imo.

Best solution still appears to be a flowed head + adapter w/S54 ITBs controlled by DME + runner length optimized CSL airbox (3D printed?) w/MAF and yet to be developed BPC tune. Not exactly a simple bolt on at this point unfortunately.

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by justpete

Best solution still appears to be a flowed head + adapter w/S54 ITBs controlled by DME + runner length optimized CSL airbox (3D printed?) w/MAF and yet to be developed BPC tune. Not exactly a simple bolt on at this point unfortunately.

Agreed for the most part. Now you need cams. Which the n54 just got cam options like 6 months ago and is a much bigger platform regarding who would use them. I would love to see a 325+ whp n52. 100+ whp per liter is nice for an NA engine imo.

Probably need custom grinds unfortunately. And perhaps piston with reliefs.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Torgus

Agreed for the most part. Now you need cams. Which the n54 just got cam options like 6 months ago and is a much bigger platform regarding who would use them. I would love to see a 325+ whp n52. 100+ whp per liter is nice for an NA engine imo.

Probably need custom grinds unfortunately. And perhaps piston with reliefs.

Agreed. Plan is to get cams designed based on flowed head and have stock cams hardwelded and ground to spec. This also requires machining the head to get rid of the Valvetronics so an intake cam tray from an N54 can be fitted with also requires the N54 cam chain as it'll be the correct length since the centerline of the intake cam will necessarily change location. Throttle operation then moves to the ITBs of course, either via DME changes or, my preference, mechanical linkage to a Tilton pedal box.

[CobraMarty]

That would be pretty cool and all but it is quite far removed from a N52 at that point.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

That would be pretty cool and all but it is quite far removed from a N52 at that point.

It's still an N52, albeit in race form. Certainly not meant for the street although there's no reason it couldn't be.

Eventually though it'd be unstreetable as compression goes up, cams get more radical, idle goes way up to stay alive, etc.

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

That would be pretty cool and all but it is quite far removed from a N52 at that point.

I agree to a point. But if you don't go there everyone is going to be basically stuck at the power levels that they have now.

Originally Posted by justpete

It's still an N52, albeit in race form. Certainly not meant for the street although there's no reason it couldn't be.

Eventually though it'd be unstreetable as compression goes up, cams get more radical, idle goes way up to stay alive, etc.

That is when it starts to get fun Mechanical linkage to the ITBs ftw. F DBW

[atmosphericM]

Late to this thread, but I'll be the skeptic... EDIT: Looks like TaskMaster beat me to it, so I'll just take away all of my hard work and lave my final thoughts.

...is losing some of the low end power that the 3 stage delivers really worth gaining a few more ponies past redline? To each his own. Definitely sounds like it is to you, Big, so go for it man! I think it's good to at least have found out that the N54 is a fair alternative to the 3 Stage. One great thing about the 3 Stage for the N52 'tinkerers' out there is that they can just upgrade to the stock 330i tune to utilize the 3 Stage whereas one MUST have an aftermarket tune to utilize the N54 mani - effectively making the N54 route much more costly. But still, if a tune is in the cards regardless, a simpler, cheaper N54 mani definitely seems like a good option to consisder vs. the 3 Stage. It all depends on what you're modding for.

[atmosphericM]

Originally Posted by Torgus

I will again say if you want a great NA motor this is not the one given what is offered for the platform. The s65 or n54 will get you more performance for less $. The s65 is the way to go for NA, but even potentially FI given your goals.

I don't see how having other options available to this platform in any way diminishes the value of the N52 offering...

I'd also barely even consider the M3 to be the same "platform."

[atmosphericM]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

This is exactly where the N52 is now. People keep doing the same intake/exhaust crap which does nothing. Headers are decent at least (thanks to Supersprint and all the *ahem*, copies), but you're never getting around the stock manifold being tuned for a specific RPM and powerband.

I'm not following here. TaskMaster is referring to expensive, involved mods returning little or nothing on the VQ. Here, we've proven that a few cheap intake mods (cut out charcoal, silicone inlet) can net 10+ whp. How is that nothing? You yourself even praise the 3 Stage as a great mod. So I feel that we are doing ok around here. Looks like it's getting to where people are getting more adventurous i.e. the BBTB, but so far so good there, right? I've yet to see anyone do anything major to these engines that seemed a waste, other than the silly cone filter mods, etc. But at least those mods are just for fun and are inexpensive (that's not to say that we shouldn't kill them with fire). I mean, looks like we're doing exactly what needs to be done, visiting the intake manifold!

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

As far as the S65 - well, M cars are always cool, but its fucking heavy as hell, gets extremely poor fuel economy, and its not exactly reliable or cheap to maintain. There's obviously a tradeoff for the extra 100hp.

100hp? More like 200 (published at 184 to be exact). And if you're comparing the N54/N55 to the S65.. well who cares? One has forced induction.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by atmosphericM

...is losing some of the low end power that the 3 stage delivers really worth gaining a few more ponies past redline?

Only for the track, makes no sense on the street as there is no off the shelf tune for it.

[Biginboca]

Well my tune just arrived from Bob and the manifold arrives tomorrow. Hoping to start (maybe finish) the swap this weekend and will have some comparison data afterwards.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by atmosphericM

I don't see how having other options available to this platform in any way diminishes the value of the N52 offering...

I'd also barely even consider the M3 to be the same "platform."

Modifying the N52 for big increases in power is in no way a reasonable thing to do or possible at a reasonable cost and this is likely to remain true for the foreseeable future. No engine builder out there has or will work on one that I can find although the 328i cars Turner raced a while back had tweaked N52s but they weren't full-up race engines afaik.

FBO on an N52 is unlikely to gain much more than ~60bhp and it comes at considerable cost even if DIY'ed compared to just increasing boost on an FI engine. I think this is pretty much his point.

[Biginboca]

I wish some of the guys from BPC would weigh in on this thread with their thoughts on the manifolds.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

I wish some of the guys from BPC would weigh in on this thread with their thoughts on the manifolds.

I already talked to Bob@BPC about it, he's just a little busy, that's all.

He sent me those graphs a while back, but I don't remember what all of them were.


I'm just going to say the 3 stage manifold can make more top end power (compared to how it is now) with things like the MVS, 4th stage disable, intake and BBTB.

But I think the total CFM and shorter runner length of the N54/55 manifold with the same mods would flow better.

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by atmosphericM

I don't see how having other options available to this platform in any way diminishes the value of the N52 offering...

I'd also barely even consider the M3 to be the same "platform."

What is the value of the N52?

It's an E9x. It is the same platform. You can bolt on the suspension etc to the other models. Plug n play.

The value of the M3: High reving NA V8 made for motosport and the track option for the e9X platform. Fine as DD but bad MPG and bearing issues that you should have addressed day 1. Most expensive.

The value of the N54: FI motor option for the E9x platform. Capable of more HP than the M3 with FI. Known to have failure points, injectors, coilpacks, etc. Middle price option.

The value of the N52: Very reliable, few problems, great DD option for the platform. No real high HP options off the shelf. Least expensive.

This is how I look at them and I've owned 2 modded N54s and 1 stock N52.

I think the other two engines diminishes the value of an N52 if you want to track it or go 'fast'. If you don't want either the N52 is great if you want a nice reliable DD bmw that with a manual is fun to drive. You want a track E9x you go m3 or spend a lot on an n54 getting it up to M3 standards. You want a high way roll racer cah? go with an N54.

Just how I look at it. Not her to offend anyone or turn this into a N52 vs. n54 vs S65 debate. It's been done way too many times before on this forum.

Or you can be like JustPete who is building a sick N52 race cah. Which I can't wait to see the finished product btw

Originally Posted by justpete

Modifying the N52 for big increases in power is in no way a reasonable thing to do or possible at a reasonable cost and this is likely to remain true for the foreseeable future. No engine builder out there has or will work on one that I can find although the 328i cars Turner raced a while back had tweaked N52s but they weren't full-up race engines afaik.

FBO on an N52 is unlikely to gain much more than ~60bhp and it comes at considerable cost even if DIY'ed compared to just increasing boost on an FI engine. I think this is pretty much his point.

nailed it on the head.


I agree be interesting to see BPCs comments.

[justpete]

One race perspective point -- the S65 at 4L takes you out of competitive classes and throws you into the GTS/Unlimited realm where it's a dog, comparatively. With NASA however they set your class and penalty points as a function of a Dynojet run taken over a set of rpm points per their spec. Class limits are usually at 3.2L these days and the S54 which you'd think would be competitive really isn't so much. And it's heavy so bhp/ton is a problem as tuning the torque curve to get decent performance for the differential weight throws you up a class where you'll get beaten like a rented mule. An FI N54 is a better choice but you'll need a restrictor plate and care in tuning in the torque curve to get your bhp/ton competitive which means you're not too far off using an M20 or whatever from days gone by and tuning the ever loving shit out of it but that restricts you, generally, to non-e9x platforms. Regardless, it's stoooopid costly except in the club circuits where it's just credit card abuse and lotsa late nights in the garage cursing life. Which is all completely forgotten once you're on the grid. Theoretically.

[hassmaschine]

Originally Posted by atmosphericM

Late to this thread, but I'll be the skeptic... EDIT: Looks like TaskMaster beat me to it, so I'll just take away all of my hard work and lave my final thoughts.

...is losing some of the low end power that the 3 stage delivers really worth gaining a few more ponies past redline? To each his own. Definitely sounds like it is to you, Big, so go for it man! I think it's good to at least have found out that the N54 is a fair alternative to the 3 Stage. One great thing about the 3 Stage for the N52 'tinkerers' out there is that they can just upgrade to the stock 330i tune to utilize the 3 Stage whereas one MUST have an aftermarket tune to utilize the N54 mani - effectively making the N54 route much more costly. But still, if a tune is in the cards regardless, a simpler, cheaper N54 mani definitely seems like a good option to consisder vs. the 3 Stage. It all depends on what you're modding for.

I don't think anyone is saying if you have a 3 stage, you should swap to an N54 manifold. Actually, I don't even think the N54 is even close to ideal - it just happens to bolt up and eliminate the high-rpm resonance of the 3-stage so it at least makes more power. There's probably a better design that keeps close to the stock 3 stage torque curve while also providing more power at higher RPM.

For me, my primary interest in this is for my N52 swap - the 3 stage doesn't fit anyway, and I see the N52 as a sort of baby-S54. 300bhp should be attainable without messing with Valvetronic (obviously, much more is possible if you go wild as Pete likes to do), we're not even that far off now with the 3-stage and basically a stock motor. That's more than enough for a car that weighs 2700lbs, and I really doubt I'm going to miss the 8ft/lbs especially since the gearing is so much shorter anyway.

Originally Posted by atmosphericM

I'm not following here. TaskMaster is referring to expensive, involved mods returning little or nothing on the VQ. Here, we've proven that a few cheap intake mods (cut out charcoal, silicone inlet) can net 10+ whp. How is that nothing? You yourself even praise the 3 Stage as a great mod. So I feel that we are doing ok around here. Looks like it's getting to where people are getting more adventurous i.e. the BBTB, but so far so good there, right? I've yet to see anyone do anything major to these engines that seemed a waste, other than the silly cone filter mods, etc. But at least those mods are just for fun and are inexpensive (that's not to say that we shouldn't kill them with fire). I mean, looks like we're doing exactly what needs to be done, visiting the intake manifold!

Yeah, the 3 stage is good bang for the buck, no argument there. That doesn't mean you can't do a lot better, but nobody has really tried - and obviously, for most people it's the best option. I'm talking about the loud exhaust and "cold air intake" BS. Most people will never move beyond that. Bolt-ons are never going to make a big difference because BMW doesn't design engines that have obvious bottlenecks. There are only design choices and compromises..

But if you want anything beyond 6900rpm, the 3 stage isn't going to do it. Whether or not BPC overlaid an N54 and tuned 3 stage or not is irrelevant - there are lots of 3 stage tuned dynos, and you won't find a single one that makes power past the stock redline. The resonance design of the 3 stage is clever, but it works against you outside of it's finely tuned parameters. I have tested this myself and there's no way around it.

100hp? More like 200 (published at 184 to be exact). And if you're comparing the N54/N55 to the S65.. well who cares? One has forced induction.

Yeah, I guess it depends if you want to pick the lower power N52 that BMW purposely detuned for comparison. I mean, they came in stock form with 265bhp - that's not a 184hp difference.