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JBL MS-8 Processor Integration Thread
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02-21-2015, 02:40 PM | #771 |
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I'm impressed Squidly, you did your homework! I actually didn't even think about that LOL. So with the 3-way front, having the sub connected to the low outputs, you can keep the polarity of the sub the same as the underseats.
Having said that, it is still good to experiment. In my car, for example, I'm running a 3-way active front, and despite auto-T/A, I had to put the left tweeter in reverse polarity for it to sound good. In the end, your ears are the ultimate judge, not the algorithm in the processor.
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02-21-2015, 02:45 PM | #772 | ||
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02-21-2015, 02:59 PM | #773 | |
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kaigoss69, i'm going out to the car just to do this now. Will post on the result.
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02-21-2015, 03:59 PM | #774 | |
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kaigoss69 & Squidly, I just tested your theory,,, and it didnt work for me. But it could be my setup.
I reverted back the underseat polarity to normal (+to+, -to-). Re-calibrated the system and played some tracks that overlapped both the lo's and mid's. I could definitely feel the sub imaging coming from the trunk. Before I wasn't able to differentiate the front stage and the sub. Reverted the polarity and re-calibrated. All back to normal. I can't differentiate the front stage and sub. Is there an easy way to identify if my wiring is correct for underseat. Cable I used has marking for positive and negative terminals, however without removing the underseat woofer trim I can't be sure if I have the properly connected the the correct terminal. I did this over an year ago. Thanks Quote:
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02-21-2015, 04:23 PM | #775 | ||
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Bavsound said they are coming out with some underfloor woofers to replace the OEM ones later this year, but so far there's no info on it. i'll take a look at what you have and do a little research there. |
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02-21-2015, 04:33 PM | #776 | |
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Incidentally, just before my MS-8 came back to me, when i was still undecided if i was going to keep it, i just happened to be googling "jbl ms-8 sucks" and found a thread where some dude was heading out to some car meet where he advertised that he was going to run over his MS-8 with his car and videotape the whole thing. I guess Andy W caught wind of this, and somehow got his contact info and called him up. He offered to replace a bunch of his MS-8 equipment that he thought might be faulty and offered to drive/fly out to his house and spend a day with him for free tuning his system. Long story short, they found that there was something about reversed polarities in his tweeters that was messing up the whole autotune algorithm. When they swapped it, everything came together. I don't know all what they did, but the fact that reversed polarities had something to do with it means that there is still something inherent in it that the ms-8 auto-tune algorithm can not handle properly. But i know nothing about the particulars of what his system looked like or what his input configuration/xo setup was. |
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02-21-2015, 04:36 PM | #777 |
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^^^ Yeah I hate them LOL. They suck at midbass, they suck at bass in general (perhaps not all the fault of the speaker, since the enclosures are too small). Plus, you upgrade yourself into a corner with these. Once you decide you can't stand them, and you want proper mid- and sub-bass, you need to take them out, put back in the OEM woofers (or something else), and then install the trunk sub. Furthermore, you may buy an amp for the Earthquakes, that is not powerful enough for a trunk sub.
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02-21-2015, 05:03 PM | #778 | |
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If you read post #7 on the link, he mentioned something similar, where he reversed the sub polarity during calibration and reverted back post, for his midbass issues. Almost similar to our cars.
Last year or so I have had the underseat set on proper polarity, and I was missing the mid's. I compensated by upping the EQ. But kaigoss's 3 way competently fixed that issue with midbass. And then his trick with reverting the trunk sub for better lo's in front stage. I have to say, after JL amp upgrade with extra power to the underseats and reversed polarity. I can definitely say it's the best MID's have ever heard in my car (F30). I have listened to HIFI and HK systems in other F30's. I'm quiet happy with it as it is.... I'm also impressed how the base OEM speakers sound with a little bit more power and proper DSP. Imagine with better speakers... Quote:
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02-21-2015, 09:41 PM | #779 |
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What you guys need to keep in mind is that every setup is different and introducing things like amp crossovers or aftermarket component speakers can easily change the phase relationships between speakers (crossovers change phase). So unless you are running exactly the same equipment in exactly the same configuration it's a waste of time to talk at any length about the specific phase relationship within your specific system. Its far more important that you just understand that relative phase between the different parts of your systems is not a given and you should experiment with it if you are after optimal results.
As I recall the MS-8 does not time align the sub so it's phase relationship with the under seats can be constructive OR destructive at the crossover point.....considering how many variables there are in the wiring, amps, and crossovers going to those respective speaker setups, it's best to try it both ways....as you discovered it will be fairly obvious, one way will sound right and one way will sound wrong. The one that's a little trickier is the relationship between the underseats and the mids. The MS-8 WILL compensate for those being out of phase but will have to do more correction so it may be difficult to tell which is better....in my case I was able to see a narrow and consistant band of frequency dip at the crossover point with my RTA that disappeared when I reversed the mids, subtle but giving the MS-8 fewer major issues to deal with seems to be the trick to consistent great sounding calibrations. Last edited by jeffb335; 02-21-2015 at 10:00 PM.. |
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02-22-2015, 10:56 PM | #780 | |
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With just the xd800 powering my system, i was at 9 o'clock with all my amp gain settings, and HU was around 50%, which is where i like my volume to be most of the time. With the ms-8 in line, i have to go to around 75% volume at HU to get the same volume. MS-8 system level is around -6db after calibration (-25db during calibration). Is there any way to boost that MS-8 output voltage without going higher than -6db on the system level setting? I heard there is some hidden menu somewhere ... |
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02-22-2015, 11:07 PM | #781 | ||
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02-23-2015, 12:21 AM | #782 |
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At this point its just a nitpick thing... i'm just asking because there is just something psychological about "losing" power by having to boost the level up higher than what you had to before to get the same volume. I know i can boost amp gains more than what i had them at before to compensate, but i want to keep those as low as possible to minimize the hiss.
That said, I'm happy with what the ms-8 has done for me so far, and tweaking over the weekend hasn't produced much more significant improvement over what i consider great sound that i have now, so i don't think i'm really planning any additional changes for now. If the answer is, there's nothing that can be done about it, thats cool. I'm just asking to see if missed anything. I'm prob just bored right now :-) although i know that once i get my sub, this whole shenanigans is going to start all over again |
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02-23-2015, 04:20 AM | #783 | |
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02-23-2015, 07:51 AM | #784 |
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A higher or lower gain position is not "better" than another, you simply set it where it needs to be to match the amp to the other components in your system. You did not loose any power, that' may be your perception, but it's not how this works.
The MS-8 output voltage is 2.8V, more than enough, that's not "low". Keep in mind the MS-8 is trying to hit a pre-determined sound target....so assuming your systems basic architecture is set up right it will be able to do that.....your calibrations should yield similar results and you should reach a point where further tweaking does not yield much results. That just means you got it right. Last edited by jeffb335; 02-23-2015 at 08:16 AM.. |
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02-23-2015, 12:13 PM | #785 | |
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In my case. I have both JL AMP and MS8 Amp in the mix. I initially set my gins on JL amp according to their recommendation using sine-wave tone (Set @ almost 11 o clock position) . It was too high for the rear's running off of MS8 AMP, front's were too over powering. So using the SLP app and MS8 Test menu i level matched it from the front seating position. All channels.
I did a recalibration @ -20db as i would usually with MS8. Everything worked out great. Now my ideal listening volume level is 1/3 on the OEM head unit (NBT) If i go anything over it's too much sound for me (Before I did this it was a little over 50%). I have no hiss after calibration MS8 @ -7db. Before I did this I had hiss at this level. After level matching i hear nothing @-7db. My JL amp gain's are between 8-9 o clock. I think your gains are too high right now and during calibration maybe its clipping so MS8 is reducing the gains to compensate. Quote:
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02-27-2015, 08:00 PM | #786 |
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Following.. I just scored a MS-8 and received my earthquakes (2ohm's) in the mail today. All I need is the snow to melt and do a nice install.
Meanwhile, trying to find a good center speaker + cic center grill, and eventually new components for the front. Can't wait ! My car has the HI-FI w/CIC retrofit
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05-22-2015, 11:28 AM | #787 | |
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I went through your complete thread again earlier this week (yes all 36 pages again ). I am curious to know how your final set-up is?!? After reading so many of your posts from multiple threads, i have come to assume that you are running active now. Two Channels = Vifa ring radiators Two Channels = JBL 4" Two Channels = Under-seats What about the remaining 2 channels of the MS8??? With reference to your post no. 699 and 702 on page 32 of this thread, is your final set-up = Front 3-way (ref. post 699) Pre-out from underseat woofer channel MS8 to Sub amplifier > IDmax 15 And the last two channels for rear fill (maybe in series) running on MS8 power! What happened to your centre channel??? Are you still running it? If yes, what is the advantage, if no, why did you lose it? Why i asked is because on page 1, in the 1st thread, you are still "for" keeping the centre channel+adding tweeter! I recall from one of your threads that now your system is tuned for the driver and you keep it like that because "the wife" does not notice the difference My problem here is that i do not have pre-outs for all channels in my PP82DSP so i have limited power. Keeping 4 channels for an active front stage, can i use my channels 5-6 (in series) for rear fill, and use the pre-out from 7-8 for my mid woofers and use the same channel bridged for my Morel SC10 (just got it )! I will use the crossover on the amplifier HP @ 60Hz for mid woofers and LP for the SC10 @ 60Hz (both -24db slope)! Do you think it is important to time align the underseat mids and the woofer in the boot independently with the rest of the speakers ? Do you think i will be able to get away with it if i use the pre-out from my PP82DSP 7-8 channel into my Jl 500/3, A+B = stereo for underseat, and Channel 3 = (taking bridged output from A+B) for the SC10? Do you think it would be a good idea to have your system's current configuration updated on the 1st page of the thread and your post no. 699 on page 32 as a tip !
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Turbo Lag - Giving the NA guys just 1 extra second of false hope... Last edited by birdcatcher; 05-22-2015 at 11:34 AM.. |
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11-06-2016, 01:08 PM | #788 | |
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11-08-2016, 09:28 AM | #789 | ||
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Mobridge DA2 > JBL MS-8 > ARC XDi 600/4 > JBL Gti 408 Mids & Vifa OT19 Tweeters; PG Ti2 1600.5 > Morel HCW-10 & IDMax 15
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01-25-2017, 02:32 AM | #790 |
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Sorry to revive a dead thread but I was wondering if someone could help me. I have an ms-8 paired to my hifi headunit. For some reason at low volume or even with the headunit off I get a weird static sound on the speakers. It goes down when I lower the gain but then the audio quality goes down as well.
I have tried various ground connections and I have run the positive to the battery directly. I used to have a dynavin hooked up via rca and it worked perfectly. I wanted to go back to stock and now I'm stuck with this horrible sounding system. And yes I am using the technic harness! There was one guy on an E46 forum that was talking about grounding the amp to the headunit. Or regrounding both amp and hu to the same spot on the chassis. Would you guys think that makes sense? This is for an E90 not E46 Thanks in advance! Last edited by Roon2k; 01-25-2017 at 03:37 AM.. |
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10-22-2018, 10:10 AM | #791 |
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kaigoss69 I'm still rocking the MS-8. After a lot of trial and error, my only remaining issue is the balance of the treble, especially the higher frequencies like high hat cymbals, emanates much more strongly from the passenger side. In other words it's worse with the high hats as opposed to ride cymbals or crash cymbals. If I turn logic 7 / processing off I don't have the issue and the treble is balanced. So it must have something to do with the calibration. Also the treble volume overall is suppressed a lot on both sides (with processing / logic 7 on) as opposed to with processing / logic 7 defeated.
I think I read about switching the polarity on one of the tweeters - might this help with this issue? If so, which tweeter should I reverse the polarity on and should I do this pre or post calibration? Right now on I don't have the treble attenuated on the crossovers. I'm thinking of re-calibrating with both tweeters attenuated at - 6db on the crossovers and then after calibration, put the left side on 0 db on the crossover and right side on -3 db on it's crossover. But I'd rather get at the root of the problem as opposed to a post calibration band-aid. I have triple checked every single wire and know for sure that the polarity is correct for every single driver in the system. Everything else is good - upfront bass (I did turn up the gain a bit on the underseat subs post calibration and calibrated with a LPF on the amp about 40 hz above the MS-8 LPF crossover point ), smooth transition at crossover points, punchy bass with good dynamic range, good sub to underseat woofer blend, solid image (sounds like music playing on the dashboard) except for the treble etc. Any suggestions? My setup is: On PPI 900.4 amp Channel 1 - Front left MB Quart 2 way components with tweeters replaced with Morel's / Crossover - 175hz @ 24 db Channel 2 - Front right MB Quart 2 way components with tweeters replaced with Morel's / Crossover - 175hz @ 24 db Channel 3 - Front left OEM Hifi underseat sub / Crossover - HPF 65 hz @ 24db and LPF 175 hz @ 24 db Channel 4 - Front right OEM Hifi underseat sub / Crossover - HPF 65 hz @ 24db and LPF 175 hz @ 24 db On MS-8 power Channel 5 - JBL Coaxial 2 ohm center channel speaker / Crossover - 175hz @ 24 db Channel 6 - Rear left OEM Hifi / Crossover - 175hz @ 24 db Channel 7 - Rear right OEM hifi / Crossover - 175hz @ 24 db On Rockford Fosgate 1000bd Channel 8 - JL 10W3V3 in VP electricity custom corner loaded fiberglass sealed box / Crossover subsonic 23 hz and LPF 65hz @ 24 db
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