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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > PROcede Ignition Timing control- Fact from Fiction



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      07-15-2009, 04:24 PM   #1
shiv@vishnu
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Exclamation PROcede Ignition Timing control- Fact from Fiction

Ok... so I got a bit tired of this debate regarding CAS offsetting and it's effect (or, as some have claimed, it's lack of effect) on actual timing advance/knock resistance. I thought the concept was pretty straight-forward and un-debateable. But I feel some parties suggested that it was more of a questionable "theory" than the testable and repeatable fact that it really is.

So I took the time to conduct a bunch of timing experiments today. All the while logging Actual and DME (perceived) timing advance in a number of map configurations (ranging from zero PROcede timing conrrection/CAS offset to several degrees of timing correction/CAS offset). And the results speak for themselves.

My questions to the forum is:

Can I present this info (datalogs), all of which is easily repeatable by others running CANbus PROcedes, without the thread turning into a flame war?

It's going to be a good thread just as long as we can stay on topic. Lots of useful tech info.

What do you guys say?

Cheers,
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      07-15-2009, 04:27 PM   #2
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In my experience running the standback and the juicebox, once the juicebox tune knocked and adapted to the power level the timing on both tunes was identical, and i was pulling timing with the standback. So without starting a flamewar, based on my experience cas offset works for about 15 seconds if that and then the car runs whatever it wants to run.
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      07-15-2009, 04:29 PM   #3
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Yes, please present and make sure it's not just the data, but clear conclusions drawn by the data so that the layman can make the connection between the two and the brainiacs can see if the agree with the conclusions.
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      07-15-2009, 04:30 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSled View Post
In my experience running the standback and the juicebox, once the juicebox tune knocked and adapted to the power level the timing on both tunes was identical, and i was pulling timing with the standback. So without starting a flamewar, based on my experience cas offset works for about 15 seconds if that and then the car runs whatever it wants to run.
ok... everyone is entitled to an opinion. But what I'm going to present is fact.

Shiv
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      07-15-2009, 04:31 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSled View Post
In my experience running the standback and the juicebox, once the juicebox tune knocked and adapted to the power level the timing on both tunes was identical, and i was pulling timing with the standback. So without starting a flamewar, based on my experience cas offset works for about 15 seconds if that and then the car runs whatever it wants to run.
Yes, but we know the inputs and outputs for the two systems you mentioned. Shiv is claiming that Canbus integration allows him to do something different and the data will support his claim.

Lets see it.
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      07-15-2009, 04:33 PM   #6
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No problem with the data except can you post a 2nd set of logs, with the car fully adapted w/ and w/o CAS offsetting? TIA
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      07-15-2009, 04:33 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
ok... everyone is entitled to an opinion. But what I'm going to present is fact.

Shiv
please show two logs, BOTH AT THE SAME PSI/POWER LEVELS. Both adapated with some sort of timestamp if possible. 1 log pull 3 degrees of timing or whatever, the other make no changes. I bet my ass that both logs will be identical.

When you change boost, no kidding timing is going to be different

canbus doesnt having anything to do with timing control. The ecu will run max timing on its own. I was a big non believer of no timing control, but on this car, its usless from the countless testing ive done with various systems/octanes/meth.

Hell on meth i added as much as 7 degrees of timing over a matter of 8-9 dyno runs, run one and run 9....guess what, same actual timing.
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      07-15-2009, 04:45 PM   #8
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Well, I for one would love to see what Shiv has to show us in this regard...so please do.

Anxiously awaiting the update next week and the custom tune documentation...please tell me the in dash boost and ait readings, etc. are coming in this update?!?! For now I guess I am going to be switching some coil packs, as I threw a 29d1 code (misfirings cylider5) today...6426 rpm's, I think a coil went bye bye, but we shall see, I think it is time for Tischer to the rescue! LOL

Thanks Shiv, now please post the timing data.
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      07-15-2009, 05:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSled View Post
please show two logs, BOTH AT THE SAME PSI/POWER LEVELS. Both adapated with some sort of timestamp if possible. 1 log pull 3 degrees of timing or whatever, the other make no changes. I bet my ass that both logs will be identical.

When you change boost, no kidding timing is going to be different

canbus doesnt having anything to do with timing control. The ecu will run max timing on its own. I was a big non believer of no timing control, but on this car, its usless from the countless testing ive done with various systems/octanes/meth.

Hell on meth i added as much as 7 degrees of timing over a matter of 8-9 dyno runs, run one and run 9....guess what, same actual timing.
Even, if the timing curve looks the same it always has a difference between reactive and proactive system...

There is always more than one road to get from A to B and I am curious to see how Shiv lead us to B.
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      07-15-2009, 05:23 PM   #10
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gimme some popcorn alex!

i don't see the need to pose the question shiv, regardless of what u say this is a public forum and its going to have people with differing opinions regardless of fact or opinion.
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      07-15-2009, 05:23 PM   #11
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Shiv - great approach asking folks to be sane for this discussion - well done. I'm interested in hearing about this as well.
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      07-15-2009, 05:24 PM   #12
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Always nice to see numbers and conclusions based on those numbers.
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      07-15-2009, 05:26 PM   #13
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Interesting. I never knew procede did knock control on itself. The only way I would imagine you prove it is using a high octane map and running low octane. Then run a Bavarian tech for CAN interference or even knock on certain cylinders. If there is no knock present it means the procede did its job. Same thing can be done with the timing.
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      07-15-2009, 05:27 PM   #14
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definitely post the info.
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      07-15-2009, 05:52 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSled View Post
please show two logs, BOTH AT THE SAME PSI/POWER LEVELS. Both adapated with some sort of timestamp if possible. 1 log pull 3 degrees of timing or whatever, the other make no changes. I bet my ass that both logs will be identical.

When you change boost, no kidding timing is going to be different

canbus doesnt having anything to do with timing control. The ecu will run max timing on its own. I was a big non believer of no timing control, but on this car, its usless from the countless testing ive done with various systems/octanes/meth.

Hell on meth i added as much as 7 degrees of timing over a matter of 8-9 dyno runs, run one and run 9....guess what, same actual timing.
No need to present evidence - WhiteSled has spoken.
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      07-15-2009, 06:37 PM   #16
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Please present the data as a service to the community. Hopefully, people will choose to be objective to better understand how this all works. There will inevitably be partisans who will attempt to debunk what you present. I recommend the moderators keep a close tab on things with a heavy hand...
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      07-15-2009, 06:45 PM   #17
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Dude Shiv. You contribute so big to the tech on this forum. Thanks in advance and gl.
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      07-15-2009, 06:58 PM   #18
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post the info plz
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      07-15-2009, 07:15 PM   #19
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Here you go guys:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282443

Enjoy,
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      07-15-2009, 07:17 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboSid View Post
gimme some popcorn alex!

i don't see the need to pose the question shiv, regardless of what u say this is a public forum and its going to have people with differing opinions regardless of fact or opinion.
Sadly, talking tech isn't about discussing opinion (see Whitesled's post as an example of this). It's about bringing measurable and repeatable data to the table. Data than any number of people, with the appropriate tools, can gather themselves. It's just that a handful of people on this forum are more interested in partisanship than actual learning.

Shiv
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      07-15-2009, 08:05 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Sadly, talking tech isn't about discussing opinion (see Whitesled's post as an example of this). It's about bringing measurable and repeatable data to the table. Data than any number of people, with the appropriate tools, can gather themselves. It's just that a handful of people on this forum are more interested in partisanship than actual learning.

Shiv
actual learning?
I simply posted my experience and finding with a tuning solution that controls timing and a solution that doesnt (despite what terry says)
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      07-15-2009, 09:33 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSled View Post
actual learning?
I simply posted my experience and finding with a tuning solution that controls timing and a solution that doesnt (despite what terry says)
I have about 3 MB of logs which show the opposite. I welcome and would like to see opposing data. But none has been presented as of yet.
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