[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by SSW

I regard my E90 as a grand touring (GT) car -- not a back road carving sports car or a balls to the wall track car -- which just needs to be stable at high speed on "normal" roads and highways.

There was nothing really wrong w/the OEM shocks in my E90 when I bought it but I thought they could use an upgrade after 6 years. So, I decided to go w/the FSDs (over the Koni Yellows) because I wanted better performance BUT I didn't want to bother w/adjustment. I didn't bother changing the springs either because, from what I read, the Eibach Prokit springs (the only ones you can use w/the FSDs) wouldn't really be all that much different than the OEM sport springs.

Given this, I'm satisfied with with the FSDs. They are firm w/o being harsh and adjust to changes in road conditions quite well, except when the dampers are "overloaded" by sharp bumps/dips in the road, in which case there is a slight "floaty" after-feel in the suspension, which I assume occurs as the dampers readjust to the unexpected change in road condition. Otherwise, I have no complaints w/the FSDs. There is still a bit too much "sway" in the front when pushed into turns, which could be helped w/stiffer springs and/or a bigger sway bar, but this really has nothing to do w/the shocks.

IMO, the only reason to change to the Yellows (or better but much more expensive coilovers) would be to try to convert the car from a GT to sports/track car, which I think is contrary to its design.

The result would be a much firmer and controlled feel to the suspension, which would probably feel harsh to most and would require other changes to the suspension (including changes in the springs, control arms, sway bars and/or bushings AND, if you're really serious, a LSD) in order to overcome the weight and other design limitations of the car. This is the reason I have chosen NOT to go that route w/my car.

If that's what you want, to each his own, but if you want to make your E9X into a sports/track car, I think it would be much easier to just buy a car -- such as an M3, 911, Corvette or Viper -- better designed and suited for that purpose from the outset.

In my experience, with my BMW and my corvette, I can tell you that I had KW V2 coilovers on my BMW and I was extremely afraid of ruining the quality of ride that comes with most coilover systems (potentially). I rode in a few members KW V1 and noticed it felt a bit firmer then stock but was tolerable. My mentality was when going to a Kw v1 or non adjustable shock, if you are not pleased with the combo you have no recourse.

By no accident, I opted for the KW V2 and first drive out on the road it was substantially too soft, way softer then stock. I was extremely pleased knowing I could now dial in more firmness to my needs and I didn't ruin the car with a suspension that I'm locked into.

Keeping that in mind, I follow and still recommend the same practices for my customers and that is when going for coilovers or shocks, choose adjustable ones.

I'd imagine you'd be able to enjoy Koni Yellow more then your FSD for the simple fact that you can dial in those quirks you hate about the FSD.

I know there are some newbies to shocks and adjustability but it's really not rocket science. I typically just drive normal and notice any differences compared to stock, then I usually apply some bumps in the road, good turns and heavy braking at high speed. It was at the high speed braking I noticed my KW v2 from their original settings were causing the nose to dive way too hard.

I turned the knob twice for firmer front and continued to drive around. I ended up staying conservative on the rear adjustment being it's a RWD car. I believe my original settings were in the middle for both front and rear and I ended up going about 2 clicks firmer in the front and the car was pleasant to drive. The next day I totally forgot I had an aftermarket suspension and believe me I had coilovers on other platforms that would send sharp pain into your spine on the slightest crack in the road. Sometimes you may need to go back and forth between 1 or 2 clicks as it may improve 1 thing but may too aggressive on bumps, but it's truly great when you finally dial it in.

Sorry for the rant but my point is Koni yellows being adjustable doesn't make them a GT car as much as one may make it out to be. There are plenty more track focused and more aggressive adjustable shocks available. I consider the Koni Yellow a "street" adjustable shock and maybe 10% usage on the track. My corvette, in stock form has many faults in regards to suspension. It's quite stiff stock and it doesn't handle bump in the road that well. I'm talking about large bumps of course. One of the first things most guys do on the Corvettes is at least change the shocks, it improves a lot of issues, 1 of which includes offering better off the line traction, stability over bumps and reduces wheel hop. However, in stock form it does take perfectly smooth roads great. I'm debating on getting shocks in my Corvette and i was inbetween just getting a bilstein non adjustable shock but I think I just talked myself into something adjustable.

Originally Posted by ajsalida

This is kind of amusing, to each his own I guess. Koni yellows are not super firm track junkie shocks at all. Pretty mild on lower settings, even feel softer than stock in some ways but that is just due to better wheel control.

What is amusing is FSD are firmer than stock at low piston speeds, trying to get the feel of stiff sport-track shocks for body motion control without the harshness at higher piston speeds. It is a trade off. I doubt the FSD feel very good on a track, some track shocks feel harsh on the street for a reason, and that reason is only apparent on a track at track speeds. The FSD have aggressive blow off valves that open under harsh conditions (meaning little control), trying to give you two types of shock in one: firm at low piston speeds and soft at higher ones.

Anyway yellows are good shocks, great value, and not harsh at all. I think maybe if you only plan to replace shocks, and don't do HPDE etc. Try FSD. If you plan on lowering, sway bars etc., yellows. But that is because the yellows are both adjustable and IMHO better all-around shocks. Not because they are for track junkies or super-firm. Also these comments only apply to stuff in this price range. True track junkie shocks are in another league entirely, in terms of cost and performance. However, and this is also amusing, some very high end track shocks feel super nice on the street, when everything is set up right. But you'd need to lay out many $k's just for the shocks to find that out.

FWIW I have them (yellows) on my e92XI, which I also consider a GT car and not a track car or canyon carver at all. Better ride than stock by a long shot. Not plush, just firm & supple with very good control.

edit: BTW that floaty FSD feeling is likely the blow off valves opening up when you don't want them to, for example when you are turning and/or braking, relying on the firmer low-speed damping, but then hit a bump or wavy bit of pavement, and the valves open up...firmness (and control) gone.

+1

[SSW]

It's interesting how my earlier post has generated such an apparently passionate (or at least extended) response in "defense" of Koni Yellows from Jeff@TopGearSolutions and ajsalida.

FWIW, I have nothing "against" Koni yellows and I think my suggestion that the Koni yellows are more appropriate for sport/track use has been somewhat exaggerated. I agree that Koni yellows are/can be suitable for street use, where they are used most often. Lots of guys like them.

The FSDs are NOT perfect but they suit my needs and purposes and the "floaty-feel" that occurs occasionally is not so serious that I need/want to change them. I chose the FSDs simply because all I wanted were better than the stock OEM shocks, didn't want to mess w/any adjustments AND didn't want or plan to make any other changes to my suspension (where the choice of the Koni yellows would be more suitable).

Anyone w/similar objectives should consider FSDs but, if you want MORE from your suspension, Koni yellows (or other adjustable shock alternatives) would otherwise probably be a better choice.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by SSW

It's interesting how my earlier post has generated such an apparently passionate (or at least extended) response in "defense" of Koni Yellows from Jeff@TopGearSolutions and ajsalida.

FWIW, I have nothing "against" Koni yellows and I think my suggestion that the Koni yellows are more appropriate for sport/track use has been somewhat exaggerated. I agree that Koni yellows are/can be suitable for street use, where they are used most often. Lots of guys like them.

The FSDs are NOT perfect but they suit my needs and purposes and the "floaty-feel" that occurs occasionally is not so serious that I need/want to change them. I chose the FSDs simply because all I wanted were better than the stock OEM shocks, didn't want to mess w/any adjustments AND didn't want or plan to make any other changes to my suspension (where the choice of the Koni yellows would be more suitable).

Anyone w/similar objectives should consider FSDs but, if you want MORE from your suspension, Koni yellows (or other adjustable shock alternatives) would otherwise probably be a better choice.

Please dont take offense, I was just voicing how others feel, including my own personal experience in regards to suspension and adjustability. To each their own of course. If you are happy with the FSD, please continue to praise them as such. It was just that your remarks seemed to offer some misconceptions that I felt needed clarification.

[ajsalida]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

Please dont take offense, I was just voicing how others feel, including my own personal experience in regards to suspension and adjustability. To each their own of course. If you are happy with the FSD, please continue to praise them as such. It was just that your remarks seemed to offer some misconceptions that I felt needed clarification.

+1 Not to mention this topic comes up very often and many people get suckered into buying FSD's and then are not happy with them.

[SSW]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

Please dont take offense, I was just voicing how others feel, including my own personal experience in regards to suspension and adjustability. To each their own of course. If you are happy with the FSD, please continue to praise them as such.

No offense taken. Like you, I was just voicing my personal experience in this regard. I agree with "to each their own of course" but I don't think I've gone out of my way to "praise" the FSDs.

As I and others have noted here and elsewhere, the FSDs are NOT perfect. They are suited for some people and NOT others. I represent those who I think would be satisfied with them -- ie., those looking for better performance than stock but NOT interested in bothering w/adjustable shocks or coilovers or any other suspension mods.

That may be a small percentage of drivers here, but I don't think that most E9X drivers care as much about "improving" the suspension of the E9X as the more vocal proponents of suspension mods do here.

[SSW]

Originally Posted by ajsalida

. . . this topic comes up very often and many people get suckered into buying FSD's and then are not happy with them.

There are certainly a number of people who discovered that they did not like the FSDs after they installed them in their cars BUT I do not believe that MOST of them were "suckered" into that choice.

Early on, there wasn't a lot of info about the FSDs and some buyers may have mistakenly bought them thinking that they would perform as well as adjustable shocks -- specifically Koni Yellows. However, there's now a lot of info on the Net about the relative strengths and weaknesses of the FSDs. So, I don't think current buyers can claim that they were "suckered" into buying them. I certainly wasn't.

FWIW, I think those people who buy them now, who find that they do not like them, probably had a conflict in desires and expectations. More than likely than not, they wanted the ease/simplicity of supposedly "self-adjustability" of the FSDs but still expected MORE performance out of the FSDs than they can actually provide. So, they bought the FSDs "hoping" that they would be good enough for their needs/desires but unfortunately found out that they were not.

For those people, Koni Yellow and other adjustable shocks or coilovers would be better and, it was their error in judgment, rather than the imperfection of the FSDs which was the problem.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by SSW

No offense taken. Like you, I was just voice my personal experience in this regard. I agree with "to each their own of course" but I don't think I've gone out of my way to "praise" the FSDs.

As I and others have noted here and elsewhere, the FSDs are NOT perfect. They are suited for some people and NOT others. I represent those who I think would be satisfied with them -- ie., those looking for better performance than stock but NOT interested in bothering w/adjustable shocks or coilovers or any other suspension mods.

That may be a small percentage of drivers here, but I don't think that most E9X drivers care as much about "improving" the suspension of the E9X as the more vocal proponents of suspension mods do here.

Originally Posted by SSW

There are certainly a number of people who discovered that they did not like the FSDs after they installed them in their cars BUT I do not believe that MOST of them were "suckered" into that choice.

Early on, there wasn't a lot of info about the FSDs and some buyers may have mistakenly bought them thinking that they would perform as well as adjustable shocks -- specifically Koni Yellows. However, there's now a lot of info on the Net about the relative strengths and weaknesses of the FSDs. So, I don't think current buyers can claim that they were "suckered" into buying them. I certainly wasn't.

FWIW, I think those people who buy them now, who find that they do not like them, probably had a conflict in desires and expectations. More than likely than not, they wanted the ease/simplicity of the non-adjustability of the FSDs but still expected MORE performance out of the FSDs than they can actually provide. So, they bought the FSDs "hoping" that they would be good enough for their need/desires but unfortunately found out that they were not.

For those people, Koni Yellow and other adjustable shocks or coilovers would be better and, it was their error in judgment, rather than the imperfection of the FSDs which was the problem.

I'm not certain but I think most of my customers were disappointed in FSD found them too harsh but I also think it comes with expectations and the fact that some may have also lowered the vehicle at the same time.

I've lowered about a dozen vehicles in my life time and they all responded differently. Then again, the aggressiveness of the suspension, spring rates and shock valving were all different too. So there are many factors to say the least as well as relevancy.

It should also go without saying many people will get in my corvette today, typically older folks, like my mother (haha) and she will tell me it rides harsh but I think it's actually pretty soft when compared to other vehicles I've owned that were slammed on coilovers or had shock spring combos, so it's all relevant.

[ajsalida]

Originally Posted by SSW

There are certainly a number of people who discovered that they did not like the FSDs after they installed them in their cars BUT I do not believe that MOST of them were "suckered" into that choice.

Early on, there wasn't a lot of info about the FSDs and some buyers may have mistakenly bought them thinking that they would perform as well as adjustable shocks -- specifically Koni Yellows. However, there's now a lot of info on the Net about the relative strengths and weaknesses of the FSDs. So, I don't think current buyers can claim that they were "suckered" into buying them. I certainly wasn't.

FWIW, I think those people who buy them now, who find that they do not like them, probably had a conflict in desires and expectations. More than likely than not, they wanted the ease/simplicity of supposedly "self-adjustability" of the FSDs but still expected MORE performance out of the FSDs than they can actually provide. So, they bought the FSDs "hoping" that they would be good enough for their needs/desires but unfortunately found out that they were not.

For those people, Koni Yellow and other adjustable shocks or coilovers would be better and, it was their error in judgment, rather than the imperfection of the FSDs which was the problem.

I think the FSD's are something of a gimmick, and a lot of marketing has gone into the gimmick. The gimmick is, you get the best of both worlds, a firm shock where you want firm, soft where you want soft.

Except it doesn't work that way. What you get is a mechanism that switches between a firm shock under certain conditions, and basically a blown shock (little damping at all). And you can't predict where or when that switch happens.

My objections to FSD are based on understanding the internals of how they work. This gimmick has been tried numerous times over the years, this is the latest version of it. If your driving style means the gimmick works for you, great. FSD's are just not a legit performance shock in any sense. That does not mean they are a bad shock just if you enjoy driving your car hard from time to time you may be surprised when the shocks "go away" and provide you with that soft range. Koni yellows are real performance shocks, in the sense that they do what they do well and they are predictable. Also adjustable, no gimmicks or goofy damping curves and work well with a wide range of other suspension mods. Like "real" shocks do.

Furthermore the reason people like me Jeff and others go on and on about this is, shock absorbers tech is something of a dark art and there is just not a lot out there countering the marketing hype from Koni on these shocks. It is not as if we hate koni, obviously, or have some hidden agenda for another manuf, it is just these shocks are maybe not the best choice for cars like BMW's. This is not some uniformed opinion or mindless allegiance, it is an objection to the tech being used by people who understand it. It is more appropriate on a 80's Cadillac floaty barge car IMHO, not a 21st century sporty BMW.

[SSW]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

I'm not certain but I think most of my customers were disappointed in FSD found them too harsh but I also think it comes with expectations and the fact that some may have also lowered the vehicle at the same time.

I've lowered about a dozen vehicles in my life time and they all responded differently. Then again, the aggressiveness of the suspension, spring rates and shock valving were all different too. So there are many factors to say the least as well as relevancy.

Agreed.

Funny that you'd say that most of your customers who were dissatisfied w/the FSDs found the FSDs too "hard" (I certainly don't) but, now that you mention it, perhaps much of the dissatisfaction voiced about the FSDs online may come from those who lowered and did other things to their suspension, which the FSDs were simply never designed/suited to handle. In which case, the fault really isn't with the FSDs; the fault was with the inappropriate choice and use to which they were applied.

[ajsalida]

Originally Posted by SSW

Agreed.

Funny that you'd say that most of your customers who were dissatisfied w/the FSDs found the FSDs too "hard" (I certainly don't) but, now that you mention it, perhaps much of the dissatisfaction voiced about the FSDs online may come from those who lowered and did other things to their suspension, which the FSDs were simply never designed/suited to handle. In which case, the fault really isn't with the FSDs; the fault was with the inappropriate choice and use to which they were applied.

I can agree with this. Konis is not exactly making the point though, that FSD's are really not suitable for being paired to anything but softer OEM springs and stock suspensions. FSD basically simulate a sportier suspension by overdamping at low piston speeds (firmer control of rate of pitch roll yaw movements) and underdamping at high ones (blowing off so that the firm damping doesn't shake your teeth out over sharp bumps and washboard). It is a compromise and unpredictable as many have noted. And it is NOT the same as actually having a sportier suspension, because it all goes way over bumps somewhat randomly.

Much of the resistance you are seeing here to FSD's is more aimed at countering the marketing coming out of Koni that is very misleading, and frankly from some of the true believers who don't understand what is going on, not at properly used FSD's. Recently Koni started pairing FSD's with Eibach pro-kit lowering springs for example. This is silly IMHO but they are selling a lot of them.

And when you make a statement like you did above about yellows being harsh track junkie shocks, well that is demonstrably false and you've got to expect people will chime in and take serious exception.

[SSW]

Originally Posted by ajsalida

And when you make a statement like you did above about yellows being harsh track junkie shocks, well that is demonstrably false and you've got to expect people will chime in and take serious exception.

I didn't really say that the Koni yellows were "harsh track junkie shocks." I did say that I thought that they were better suited for those interested in sport car/track type performance but I also said that they are/can be suitable for street use, where they are most often used and that many people like them for that purpose. So, I really don't think there's any argument between us on that point.

I also generally agree w/your criticisms of the design limitations of the FSD, except that I do not find them "unpredictable."

When I hit a sharp bump or dip at high speed (80 mph or above), I'm certain that I will get that "floaty-feeling" in the suspension, as the dampers readjust to the abrupt change in road conditions. This is not a dangerous (oh f*ck!) feeling, which makes me worry if the car will stay under control or not. It's mainly an "aw shit" reaction, which makes me unhappy with the fact that I have to wait awhile for the shocks to reset.

This doesn't matter at all if I'm going straight (I can just keep the hammer down) but, if I'm taking a sharp turn, it does make me feel the need to get off the throttle until that "floaty feeling" goes away (although this might just be due to the need for stiffer springs and/or front sway bar). This would be unacceptable on back roads or on the track (which is why I think Koni Yellows would be better in those circumstances) but, when it happens on the highway, under "normal" driving conditions while I'm whizzing by cars left and right at 80 to 120, I'm know that going WAY TOO fast anyway and it's a reminder to me to just slow down. So, I really don't think of it as that much of a negative anyway.

Enough said. You hate the "pretense" of FSDs and I find them "acceptable" for my purposes. I think that you, Joe and I have made it more than clear what the FSDs are and aren't and have given those, who are trying to choose between the FSDs and Yellows, enough info to make the decision between the two.

Let's just leave it at that. Ciao!!!

[gryphun]

Originally Posted by SSW

IMO, the only reason to change to the Yellows (or better but much more expensive coilovers) would be to try to convert the car from a GT to sports/track car, which I think is contrary to its design.

The result would be a much firmer and controlled feel to the suspension, which would probably feel harsh to most and would require other changes to the suspension (including changes in the springs, control arms, sway bars and/or bushings AND, if you're really serious, a LSD) in order to overcome the weight and other design limitations of the car. This is the reason I have chosen NOT to go that route w/my car.

If that's what you want, to each his own, but if you want to make your E9X into a sports/track car, I think it would be much easier to just buy a car -- such as an M3, 911, Corvette or Viper -- better designed and suited for that purpose from the outset.

Excellent point and one of the main reasons I stopped modifying my car (2006 330i) because my next purchase will be either an M3 or 911

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by SSW

Agreed.

Funny that you'd say that most of your customers who were dissatisfied w/the FSDs found the FSDs too "hard" (I certainly don't) but, now that you mention it, perhaps much of the dissatisfaction voiced about the FSDs online may come from those who lowered and did other things to their suspension, which the FSDs were simply never designed/suited to handle. In which case, the fault really isn't with the FSDs; the fault was with the inappropriate choice and use to which they were applied.

Many many many people buy stuff without even knowing why they are buying them. In most cases they have little to no experience modifying their vehicle and take reviews and remarks as the gospel, when they should be really be taken with a grain of salt. I've been burned tens of thousands of dollars over the years by reading a review from someone on a particular modification only to be dissatisfied completely. In those particular situations, I took a gamble on someone elses experience but forget about "relevancy".

For example, on my corvette I was looking for a good "street cam". My experience was very limited on v8's and cammed cars at the time of purchase. By no accident I read a rave review about a particular cam, the guy said it was "Very street-able", "Drove like stock" and many other things that put my mind at ease about the cam.

Long story short I had that cam in my car no more then a month before having to pull it out. I hated it. Start up and shut down of the vehicle was atrocious, gas mileage went completely down, bucking and surging on the highway, I even had it re tuned multiple times to see if it can be sorted out. My tuner finally came to me and said Jeff, this is a big cam, it's a cam car, these are normal characteristics. With limited tuners in the area and not wanting to play with the tune myself, I just removed it.

I come to find out the guy who wrote the review was used to "Race cams" and had several older muscle cars back in the day and compared to a race cams it was practical but it was certainly an "aggressive" street cam, especially to someone conservative like me who was really just looking for a nice lopey noise and some extra power.

[Tom Droze]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

Many many many people buy stuff without even knowing why they are buying them. In most cases they have little to no experience modifying their vehicle and take reviews and remarks as the gospel, when they should be really be taken with a grain of salt. I've been burned tens of thousands of dollars over the years by reading a review from someone on a particular modification only to be dissatisfied completely. In those particular situations, I took a gamble on someone elses experience but forget about "relevancy".

For example, on my corvette I was looking for a good "street cam". My experience was very limited on v8's and cammed cars at the time of purchase. By no accident I read a rave review about a particular cam, the guy said it was "Very street-able", "Drove like stock" and many other things that put my mind at ease about the cam.

Long story short I had that cam in my car no more then a month before having to pull it out. I hated it. Start up and shut down of the vehicle was atrocious, gas mileage went completely down, bucking and surging on the highway, I even had it re tuned multiple times to see if it can be sorted out. My tuner finally came to me and said Jeff, this is a big cam, it's a cam car, these are normal characteristics. With limited tuners in the area and not wanting to play with the tune myself, I just removed it.

I come to find out the guy who wrote the review was used to "Race cams" and had several older muscle cars back in the day and compared to a race cams it was practical but it was certainly an "aggressive" street cam, especially to someone conservative like me who was really just looking for a nice lopey noise and some extra power.

Your point was exactly the same point I tried to make in my earlier post. When I made the decision to go with the FSD's I wasn't a member of this forum but I did an extensive Google search and ended up reading several posts from here. It came down to getting the best set up to suit my needs and driving style. For a daily street driver I am completely satisfied with the Eibach and FSD set up.

[FrankiE90]

Originally Posted by belcom

Except you have to take apart the whole suspension to adjust the rear shocks. That's kinda unreasonable. I've had adjustable shocks before from Tokico. All 4 corners were adjusted by a little dial at the top of the piston. I only had to take the back seat out to adjust the rears which is whole lot easier. But I also could've made small holes in the rear panel to access the dials with a small screwdriver.

I am sure Koni Yellows are great its just the rear adjustability that's bugging the hell out of me.

FSD...

Ah the classic reliable yellows.
U don't need 2 do that anymore if u get
Koni sa/da external adjustability - from the top.
They're basically yellows w/ ext adjustment: