E90Post
 


VIBE Motorsports
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Off-Topic Discussions Board > Politics/Religion > Insurance fraud



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-23-2014, 06:39 PM   #23
Mr Tonka
Tonka.... Mr. Tonka
 
Drives: Exceptionally well :)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Tampa, FL

Posts: 1,164
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
NZ prob won't let you in - they heavily restrict immigration...

Since this is a car thread, how about the Chevy Obama - I mean Volt? It cost every tax paying US family $680 - are you enjoying yours?
I have a friend who just made it in. Seemed like no big deal. I think they are plenty interested if you have a pot to piss in. They don't want the poor and destitute.
__________________
-Joe


"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." — Frédéric Bastiat
Mr Tonka is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-27-2014, 12:12 AM   #24
bbbbmw
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southwest

Posts: 521
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
I have a friend who just made it in. Seemed like no big deal. I think they are plenty interested if you have a pot to piss in. They don't want the poor and destitute.
Read this article today - reminded me of this thread, with the author's discussion of immigration in NZ and Australia. Other interesting points raised as well:

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/20...html#read_more
__________________
<OO (llll)(llll) OO>
bbbbmw is online now  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-28-2014, 05:09 PM   #25
scalbert
Major General
 
scalbert's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 E90 M3, '13 Volt, '08 Ody
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Woodstock, GA

Posts: 5,710
iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Since this is a car thread, how about the Chevy Obama - I mean Volt? It cost every tax paying US family $680 - are you enjoying yours?
I certainly did not vote for Obama and hold no love for the vast majority of his policies. But how is a car that began its design phase well before Obama even announced running for President, a Chevy Obama? By the time he took office, test mules had been roaming the country for some time.

Also, how exactly does it cost every tax paying family $680? There are many facets to this and am curious which way this has been spun.

Last edited by scalbert; 02-28-2014 at 10:15 PM.
scalbert is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-01-2014, 12:25 AM   #26
bbbbmw
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southwest

Posts: 521
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by scalbert
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Since this is a car thread, how about the Chevy Obama - I mean Volt? It cost every tax paying US family $680 - are you enjoying yours?
I certainly did not vote for Obama and hold no love for the vast majority of his policies. But how is a car that began its design phase well before Obama even announced running for President, a Chevy Obama? By the time he took office, test mules had been roaming the country for some time.

Also, how exactly does it cost every tax paying family $680? There are many facets to this and am curious which way this has been spun.
The Volt did go through its design phase from about 2006-08. But it was not moving to production after that - remember the whole GM takeover by the government? Right after that happened in 2009, early in Obama's term, he then green-lighted moving the car into production., and dumped a ton of stimulus money into it. As I remember, I originally calculated the cost of suppliers, R&D, etc. - what the govt had paid out for the Vold and suppliers, less the tax credit. Divide that investment by the 300M people here, and the loss per individual was about $170/ea. - and I figured $680/family of four.

But update: here's another article that calculates the cost (production, R&D, etc) at $250k per car. The average Volt driver earns $170k - the Volt costs $42k, but has tax rebates of up to $15k/car. So it's not like "the Peoples Car"...

And I thought Cash for Clunkers was a bad idea...


http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/16192
__________________
<OO (llll)(llll) OO>
bbbbmw is online now  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-01-2014, 01:13 AM   #27
128Convertibleguy
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2010 128 Covertible
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Mountains

Posts: 461
iTrader: (0)

Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
But update: here's another article that calculates the cost (production, R&D, etc) at $250k per car.
The trick that's being played here is that the guy wrote the article when the Volt had only just started sales (the article states 6000 Volts have been sold, the number now is about 60,000, ten times more). Then he took all of the fixed costs, research, design, tooling, etc, added the variable costs of production, and divided by 6000.

This is beyond silly. It's like saying you bought your BMW for $30,000, drove it 10,000 miles the first year, paid $1000 for insurance, $2000 for gas, $3000 in license and tax (including the original sales tax), for a total cost of $36,000. Therefore, a BMW costs $3.60 per mile to drive. It assigns no value to the fixed costs for future production. If GM had stopped at 6000 Volts, they would have cost $250K each (maybe, who knows how he got the actual costs). If you gave away your BMW after driving it 10,000 miles, it would have cost you $3.60 per mile. Neither number has any basis in reality.

A similar analysis of the iPad at an early point in its production would have generated similar nonsense. You amortize your fixed costs over the long haul. By the way this "analysis" has been repeatedly quoted. That doesn't make it valid.

It is true that GM loses some on each Volt now sold. The plan is to have the second generation as a 2016 model, and to be able to make some profit.

This kind of analysis would make any new technology look bad.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 03-01-2014 at 01:35 AM.
128Convertibleguy is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-01-2014, 11:34 AM   #28
bbbbmw
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southwest

Posts: 521
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
But update: here's another article that calculates the cost (production, R&D, etc) at $250k per car.
The trick that's being played here is that the guy wrote the article when the Volt had only just started sales (the article states 6000 Volts have been sold, the number now is about 60,000, ten times more). Then he took all of the fixed costs, research, design, tooling, etc, added the variable costs of production, and divided by 6000.

This is beyond silly. It's like saying you bought your BMW for $30,000, drove it 10,000 miles the first year, paid $1000 for insurance, $2000 for gas, $3000 in license and tax (including the original sales tax), for a total cost of $36,000. Therefore, a BMW costs $3.60 per mile to drive. It assigns no value to the fixed costs for future production. If GM had stopped at 6000 Volts, they would have cost $250K each (maybe, who knows how he got the actual costs). If you gave away your BMW after driving it 10,000 miles, it would have cost you $3.60 per mile. Neither number has any basis in reality.

A similar analysis of the iPad at an early point in its production would have generated similar nonsense. You amortize your fixed costs over the long haul. By the way this "analysis" has been repeatedly quoted. That doesn't make it valid.

It is true that GM loses some on each Volt now sold. The plan is to have the second generation as a 2016 model, and to be able to make some profit.

This kind of analysis would make any new technology look bad.
I believe the point of the article was to look at the development cost to the taxpayers: We paid for the development costs of the Volt with no repayment, yet GM is reaping the profits as they sell more of them, and re-use the technology.

But you make a good point - perhaps the core issue is whether the government should invest this heavily in developing new commercial technologies. Personally, I don't think they should, but there are other points of view.

IMO, the Volt is an ill-conceived product, designed by the former GM management team that did a great job of driving the company into the ground. It was then picked up by the government in a highly political move and payoff to the Unions for their support of Obama. The US taxpayers sunk huge money into bringing a product to market that was never viable in the first place. It's corporate welfare, as well as government subsidies to high-income earners.
__________________
<OO (llll)(llll) OO>
bbbbmw is online now  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-03-2014, 11:29 AM   #29
scalbert
Major General
 
scalbert's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 E90 M3, '13 Volt, '08 Ody
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Woodstock, GA

Posts: 5,710
iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
The Volt did go through its design phase from about 2006-08. But it was not moving to production after that - remember the whole GM takeover by the government? Right after that happened in 2009, early in Obama's term, he then green-lighted moving the car into production., and dumped a ton of stimulus money into it. As I remember, I originally calculated the cost of suppliers, R&D, etc. - what the govt had paid out for the Vold and suppliers, less the tax credit. Divide that investment by the 300M people here, and the loss per individual was about $170/ea. - and I figured $680/family of four.

But update: here's another article that calculates the cost (production, R&D, etc) at $250k per car. The average Volt driver earns $170k - the Volt costs $42k, but has tax rebates of up to $15k/car. So it's not like "the Peoples Car"...

And I thought Cash for Clunkers was a bad idea...


http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/16192
There has been much misinformation published about the Volt. The first pre-production assembled vehicle was just after Obama took office. The production test cells for the batteries were in place before the elections took place (we represent both CSZ, chamber manufacturer, and Gantner, data acquisition manufacturer). Production was never halted. I would agree the bailout helped keep the ball rolling. But the C7 also benefitted yet little written about it in this regard.

I would ask that you apply the same math to the oil, corn (ethanol), etc. subsidies and credits. Also, it is $7500 per vehicle from the Fed. Some states do supplement more than others; nothing additional here in Georgia. I assume we should apply the interest deductions on a Mortgage as a benefit to some but not all.

I am very much a conservative on the majority of fiscal policies. However, the Right has made it an ambition to paint this vehicle a certain way and actually publish incorrect information knowingly. And in other case, pull together numbers to make a point. However, numbers can be compiled from multiple sources to make a point about anything. I have found it interesting and perplexing. Granted, I may be biased as I do drive one 75% of my driving time...
scalbert is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-03-2014, 11:41 AM   #30
scalbert
Major General
 
scalbert's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 E90 M3, '13 Volt, '08 Ody
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Woodstock, GA

Posts: 5,710
iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
IMO, the Volt is an ill-conceived product,
Obviously opinion as well but not really for those that understand the purpose. With the consumer satisfaction rating up at the top of the lists, most owners would disagree. It is a fantastic vehicle for its intended purpose. Does it perform as well as my M3, absolutely no. Do I enjoy driving it during the week the majority of the time, absolutely yes. It is quite nimble and the lack of a transmission makes for an interesting experience sort of like a large golf cart but with much more torque.

Interesting video on the drivetrain. Certainly more complicated than I originally thought. Yet they have very few issues.

scalbert is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-05-2014, 03:31 PM   #31
bbbbmw
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southwest

Posts: 521
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by scalbert View Post
There has been much misinformation published about the Volt. The first pre-production assembled vehicle was just after Obama took office. The production test cells for the batteries were in place before the elections took place (we represent both CSZ, chamber manufacturer, and Gantner, data acquisition manufacturer). Production was never halted. I would agree the bailout helped keep the ball rolling. But the C7 also benefitted yet little written about it in this regard.

I would ask that you apply the same math to the oil, corn (ethanol), etc. subsidies and credits. Also, it is $7500 per vehicle from the Fed. Some states do supplement more than others; nothing additional here in Georgia. I assume we should apply the interest deductions on a Mortgage as a benefit to some but not all.

I am very much a conservative on the majority of fiscal policies. However, the Right has made it an ambition to paint this vehicle a certain way and actually publish incorrect information knowingly. And in other case, pull together numbers to make a point. However, numbers can be compiled from multiple sources to make a point about anything. I have found it interesting and perplexing. Granted, I may be biased as I do drive one 75% of my driving time...
Not sure what "we represent CSZ, Chamber...Ganter" - do you work for GM, or a supplier? What do you mean by C7 - Corvette?

The Fed tax credit is $7,500, and then some states give credits on top of that (Illinois is almost $4k), and then I believe there are other subsidies, such as power companies that provide electricity for "free."

I think Ethanol subsidies are a ridiculous waste of taxpayer money, do damage to the environment, and create artificial economies while destroying other economies. The mortgage interest deduction is a classic example of why government should not meddle in markets, under the guise of "helping."

I'm not saying anything about the car - am happy you enjoy it, and that it is a well-crafted product. I just don't like paying my tax dollars to fund it - the Volt should have stood on its own merits. It was corporate welfare at its worst, enabled by the Obama Adminstration and the Democrat-controlled Congress.
__________________
<OO (llll)(llll) OO>
bbbbmw is online now  
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:46 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST