[lurker]

Originally Posted by Marine1129

Do you really live in California and have a 335i, Lambo and a Evo?

I actually live in Australia. Currently drive a Subaru WRX (EVO??), and am considering leasing a 135i in the new year. What makes you think I have a Lambo or EVO?? I work as an electrical engineer for a medical device company that sells quite a bit into the states. I have done a fair bit of auto electrical hobby projects for my own car.

I never intended to post here, so started a user as lurker as being a user atleast gave me preferences for time zone etc. I happened upon the photo and saw the argument and since it is an area I know a bit about, I decided to post.

Does where I live change anything?

[NM_BMW]

Originally Posted by lurker

I actually live in Australia. Currently drive a Subaru WRX (EVO??), and am considering leasing a 135i in the new year. What makes you think I have a Lambo or EVO?? I work as an electrical engineer for a medical device company that sells quite a bit into the states. I have done a fair bit of auto electrical hobby projects for my own car.

I never intended to post here, so started a user as lurker as being a user atleast gave me preferences for time zone etc. I happened upon the photo and saw the argument and since it is an area I know a bit about, I decided to post.

Does where I live change anything?

-- Adrian

He was thinking that you were Shiv@Vishnu on another username.

[lurker]

Originally Posted by Riches335

It seems a case of one tuner purchasing hardware from a larger manufacturer and relabeling it for this application, and another making the hardware they require directly.

What would you estimate the total production cost (per unit) of each piece given their respective volumes?

I have no idea what is underneath the JB board. My estimate based on what I see on the top is that it has <$10 in parts including micro. PCB is probably <$5. It may be handmade as it is through-hole.. so perhaps JB assembles them. Would probably cost $5-15 to get them assembled externally. Cost is probably $20-30. This must be take into perspective. Even though the cost of parts is low, it is fair and reasonable for a developer to charge money for their development expenses... software development etc. Depending on sales volumes, I would expect that the developer would want to sell this for much more money that his cost.

For the Procede. Probably a 4-6 layed PCB, so more like $10-15 per PCB. Micro is probably $10-20 depending on what it is. Other components is difficult to guess on price as there is alot of possibilities there. Price for other components would range from $20 minimum to maybe over $100 max depending on what is there. To get the boards assembled would be $10-20 per board on surface mount pick and place machines/reflow or wave soldering. So price to make Procede could range from $50-200. Much harder to guess this one as alot more unknowns.

[lurker]

Originally Posted by Morgiea4

I usually just read here as well, but I'm sorry... it just seems way to conspicuous and convenient that you start posting all of a sudden, stating that you are an Electrical Engineer, praising how well designed the Vishnu product is, when Shiv, in one of his posts suggested that an "EE" should chime in with an opinion... I would have to assume that Lurker = SHIV or one of his associates.

Being a member of several other car forums, I have seen this type of childish bickering all too often. Whatever happened to letting your product speak for itself? BTW, you don't have to be a genius to understand Shiv's motives for posting what he did and frankly I am quite puzzled as how he conducts himself sometimes.

If my posts are not useful, I will refrain from further posts. I had not intended to post here anyway. I spend all my working time designing and testing electronics for medical products. A great deal of this time is spent altering designs to make them more robust, and to make them cheaper to manufacture. Some of the products I have designed sell in the order of 300,000 per year, so saving a dollar gives the company $300,000 profit. Return rate from 5% to 3% can earn several million dollars in profit. I felt inclined to post as I found it quite laughable that some people were saying that it does not matter that the boards look different, as it makes no difference. I think it does make a difference. I have no idea which produces better performance as there is too much conflicting info. The photo is non-subjective. The photo shows that from an electronics perspective, completely nonbiased, ANYONE with any electrical knowledge would conclude that the products are quite different, and that one has alot more capability than the other, and also costs more to make/develop as a result. I welcome any other EE with a JB to give a similar opinion to me

I think some of you guys are a bit paranoid. If Shiv has a 335, a lambo and an EVO, I wish I was him, but I am just a potential customer who is soughting through a tonne of biased and subjective reviews who saw something objective that makes a difference to me. I certainly never thought I would be accused of bias for concluding that one looks better than the other. I am just providing an informed logical conclusion from the information in the picture.

[sd390r]

RDsport323 i thought you were RDSport

hes banned now, nevermind, my bad

[NM_BMW]

Originally Posted by lurker

If my posts are not useful, I will refrain from further posts. I had not intended to post here anyway. I spend all my working time designing and testing electronics for medical products. A great deal of this time is spent altering designs to make them more robust, and to make them cheaper to manufacture. Some of the products I have designed sell in the order of 300,000 per year, so saving a dollar gives the company $300,000 profit. Return rate from 5% to 3% can earn several million dollars in profit. I felt inclined to post as I found it quite laughable that some people were saying that it does not matter that the boards look different, as it makes no difference. I think it does make a difference. I have no idea which produces better performance as there is too much conflicting info. The photo is non-subjective. The photo shows that from an electronics perspective, completely nonbiased, ANYONE with any electrical knowledge would conclude that the products are quite different, and that one has alot more capability than the other, and also costs more to make/develop as a result. I welcome any other EE with a JB to give a similar opinion to me

I think some of you guys are a bit paranoid. If Shiv has a 335, a lambo and an EVO, I wish I was him, but I am just a potential customer who is soughting through a tonne of biased and subjective reviews who saw something objective that makes a difference to me. I certainly never thought I would be accused of bias for concluding that one looks better than the other. I am just providing an informed logical conclusion from the information in the picture.

Keep posting my friend. Your posts are very informative.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by lurker

If my posts are not useful, I will refrain from further posts. I had not intended to post here anyway. I spend all my working time designing and testing electronics for medical products. A great deal of this time is spent altering designs to make them more robust, and to make them cheaper to manufacture. Some of the products I have designed sell in the order of 300,000 per year, so saving a dollar gives the company $300,000 profit. Return rate from 5% to 3% can earn several million dollars in profit. I felt inclined to post as I found it quite laughable that some people were saying that it does not matter that the boards look different, as it makes no difference. I think it does make a difference. I have no idea which produces better performance as there is too much conflicting info. The photo is non-subjective. The photo shows that from an electronics perspective, completely nonbiased, ANYONE with any electrical knowledge would conclude that the products are quite different, and that one has alot more capability than the other, and also costs more to make/develop as a result. I welcome any other EE with a JB to give a similar opinion to me

I think some of you guys are a bit paranoid. If Shiv has a 335, a lambo and an EVO, I wish I was him, but I am just a potential customer who is soughting through a tonne of biased and subjective reviews who saw something objective that makes a difference to me. I certainly never thought I would be accused of bias for concluding that one looks better than the other. I am just providing an informed logical conclusion from the information in the picture.

Don't listen to the conspiracy theorists. I think I speak for nearly everyone when I say that your input is always welcome here. What you are seeing, i'm afraid, is the standard e90post initiation given to anyone who has displayed exceptional knowledge in any given field.

"He knows a lot. Something is fishy. Get him!!!"

Cheers,
shiv

[NM_BMW]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

"He knows a lot. Something is fishy. Get him!!!"

Cheers,
shiv

Their watching....

[lurker]

Originally Posted by rdsport323

Lurker, after re-reading your posts, a few things struck me a bit odd... you say you are wanting to buy a 135i so why not lurk around the 1addicts forums? What brought you here? That sudden need to join in on this discussion or were you asked/brought in to this from someone? 1addicts has the same information there as it does here w/o all the tuner war crap ( i think. )

and you say you are completely unbiased and just wanted to give a EE's perspective on the whole matter but your statements here show otherwise. Read what you wrote again, and tell us what side you think you are on.







you seem to know a lot about how the procede was built for.. almost like an advertisement. but if i'm wrong, then i apologize.. i was just hoping that someone with your expertise would stay neutral in this.

In all those quotes from me, I cannot see where I am biased. Stating that one looks better than the other based on objective evidence is not biased. Bias is when your opinion is swayed for personal reasons. I think you are confusing your definition of bias. If I see a spade and call it a spade ami I biased?

To make my position clear. My opinion is that from an electrical standpoint based on what I saw in the photo:

* Procede seems to have a more capable processor with more IOs, probably more processing power, and probably more memory.
* Procede is a better engineered electrical design with integral power supply, extensive signal conditioning (I think) and alot more thought put into the design.
* Procede can be manufactured using automated systems so is easier to manufacture in volume and with higher reliability.
* JB is alot cheaper in parts.
* JB can be assembled by anyone with a soldering iron... better for rework, but harder to make high volume, and harder to maintain quality.
* Probably others but cannot think of it now.

These are my opinions that are totally unbiased. Show any EE the same photo and they will make the same comments.

As to how any of the above effects the typical end user of these products, I cannot comment, as without testing each, any opinion I give would be biased.

What I can say... if the price is in the same order of magnitude, and the performance is perceived to be similar, I know what I would spend my dollars on. That again is not biased. Simply my perception of value for money.

How did I end up here.... I knew 335 and 135 have the same engine, and 135 is very new in Oz, so googled 335 forums. I have not even been to the other forum you mention. I was more interested in info on the engine than the body, and 335 has been using it the longest.

Anyway, I see no need to defend my bias or identity any further than this. I am happy to add technical input if requested as I should finish something I started, but you guys are welcome to have your conspiracy theories unquestioned by me in future... no time for that myself, but happy to contribute to interesting discussion.

[sd390r]

lol well the thread is definitely relevant... OP asked "why so much closure" and we definitely answered that real quick...

[munters]

You're welcome lurker
There are not to many knowing what they're talking here does days.
The information you gave are absolutely correct. I didn't see the pictures, but what you wrote is possible to see in the board's.

They're new forum members like you (the last few month) without inputs but you do provide unbiased infos.

[brianhn1]

Originally Posted by Riches335

It seems a case of one tuner purchasing hardware from a larger manufacturer and relabeling it for this application, and another making the hardware they require directly.

What would you estimate the total production cost (per unit) of each piece given their respective volumes?

You hit it right on the head. The capability for a software interface is a dead giveaway. Only large companies can afford to R&D that kind of hardware.

[bootay]

Originally Posted by brianhn1

You hit it right on the head. The capability for a software interface is a dead giveaway. Only large companies can afford to R&D that kind of hardware.

You realize the JB3 has that interface as well, it just hasn't been leveraged until the new BMS map switcher/tuning device/boost gauge/bat belt thingy came out (and Rixters kick-ass vent gauge, as it turns out).

And for lurker, you make comments like "a lot more thought went into it", when in fact very little thought went into it from Vishnu, it's a generic design and therefore overcomplicated for the task, which any EE should appreciate is not what you want...complexity = the enemy as it leads to increased costs, failure rates, etc. And in fact, Shiv has made comments about I/O channels being all used up (at least on Rev 1, not sure if Rev 2 has more), so even expansion-wise it appears limited in ways the JB3 is not. And Terry has stated that the JB3 has room for hundreds of maps in memory, so that guess of yours is also wrong. Stick to facts and your info is good, but you really start to sound like a shill when you're reaching.

Generic hardware vs. specific hardware is what we saw in those pics. What's important is that the custom JB3 performs at least as well as the V3, so the simplicity of that design should now be a significant plus...

The funny part is, I'm sure the end result of Shiv's tirade on n54tech over the last week or so has an end-result of fewer sales for Vishnu and more for BMS - he just showed his ass repeatedly with angry/sarcastic responses, refusing to answer Terry's points, and basically just acting like a child. And that's the cause of 99% of the issues on these forums - Shiv is the worst of the fanboys. I don't see the downpipe makers doing the kind of crap that goes on between the tuners, it's completely stupid.

[cliverman]

Originally Posted by bootay

You realize the JB3 has that interface as well, it just hasn't been leveraged until the new BMS map switcher/tuning device/boost gauge/bat belt thingy came out (and Rixters kick-ass vent gauge, as it turns out).

And for lurker, you make comments like "a lot more thought went into it", when in fact very little thought went into it from Vishnu, it's a generic design and therefore overcomplicated for the task, which any EE should appreciate is not what you want...complexity = the enemy as it leads to increased costs, failure rates, etc. And in fact, Shiv has made comments about I/O channels being all used up (at least on Rev 1, not sure if Rev 2 has more), so even expansion-wise it appears limited in ways the JB3 is not. And Terry has stated that the JB3 has room for hundreds of maps in memory, so that guess of yours is also wrong. Stick to facts and your info is good, but you really start to sound like a shill when you're reaching.

Generic hardware vs. specific hardware is what we saw in those pics. What's important is that the custom JB3 performs at least as well as the V3, so the simplicity of that design should now be a significant plus...

The funny part is, I'm sure the end result of Shiv's tirade on n54tech over the last week or so has an end-result of fewer sales for Vishnu and more for BMS - he just showed his ass repeatedly with angry/sarcastic responses, refusing to answer Terry's points, and basically just acting like a child. And that's the cause of 99% of the issues on these forums - Shiv is the worst of the fanboys. I don't see the downpipe makers doing the kind of crap that goes on between the tuners, it's completely stupid.

+1 AMEN brother!

[munters]

Originally Posted by JOe335i

Sounds like Lurker got a free PROcede revII for his potential 135i, congrats.

For me you have nothing to say then bashing. Could you stop that and give some information or stay quiet !?

Originally Posted by bootay

You realize the JB3 has that interface as well, it just hasn't been leveraged until the new BMS map switcher/tuning device/boost gauge/bat belt thingy came out (and Rixters kick-ass vent gauge, as it turns out).

And for lurker, you make comments like "a lot more thought went into it", when in fact very little thought went into it from Vishnu, it's a generic design and therefore overcomplicated for the task, which any EE should appreciate is not what you want...complexity = the enemy as it leads to increased costs, failure rates, etc. And in fact, Shiv has made comments about I/O channels being all used up (at least on Rev 1, not sure if Rev 2 has more), so even expansion-wise it appears limited in ways the JB3 is not. And Terry has stated that the JB3 has room for hundreds of maps in memory, so that guess of yours is also wrong. Stick to facts and your info is good, but you really start to sound like a shill when you're reaching.

Generic hardware vs. specific hardware is what we saw in those pics. What's important is that the custom JB3 performs at least as well as the V3, so the simplicity of that design should now be a significant plus...

The funny part is, I'm sure the end result of Shiv's tirade on n54tech over the last week or so has an end-result of fewer sales for Vishnu and more for BMS - he just showed his ass repeatedly with angry/sarcastic responses, refusing to answer Terry's points, and basically just acting like a child. And that's the cause of 99% of the issues on these forums - Shiv is the worst of the fanboys. I don't see the downpipe makers doing the kind of crap that goes on between the tuners, it's completely stupid.

One thing is room for hundreds of maps, (nobody needs anyways more then 4 I would say)
and the other thing is more functions.
Terry said he can stack Microcontrollers = new board, layout and the SW is more complex to write as well = takes time but always possible.
And this would be JB4.
Shiv said, at the moment Procede I can hold with Procede II but in the future with more functions it will not because of lack of I/O (could be for example Vanos control, Ignition coil control) with Procede II.
If you think just powervise why not stay with JB2HH...R?
I for my self like those additional functions and I'm looking forward for more in the future.

[NM_BMW]

Originally Posted by munters

For me you have nothing to say then bashing. Could you stop that and give some information or stay quiet !?



One thing is room for hundreds of maps, (nobody needs anyways more then 4 I would say)
and the other thing is more functions.
Terry said he can stack Microcontrollers = new board, layout and the SW is more complex to write as well = takes time but always possible.
And this would be JB4.
Shiv said, at the moment Procede I can hold with Procede II but in the future with more functions it will not because of lack of I/O (could be for example Vanos control, Ignition coil control) with Procede II.
If you think just powervise why not stay with JB2HH...R?
I for my self like those additional functions and I'm looking forward for more in the future.

So this "stacking" is like what a dual core cpu?

[HighVoltage]

Missed the drama over the weekend. As an EE, I'm also curious...really like to see these photos. Anyone??

[Riches335]

Originally Posted by lurker

I have no idea what is underneath the JB board. My estimate based on what I see on the top is that it has <$10 in parts including micro. PCB is probably <$5. It may be handmade as it is through-hole.. so perhaps JB assembles them. Would probably cost $5-15 to get them assembled externally. Cost is probably $20-30. This must be take into perspective. Even though the cost of parts is low, it is fair and reasonable for a developer to charge money for their development expenses... software development etc. Depending on sales volumes, I would expect that the developer would want to sell this for much more money that his cost.

For the Procede. Probably a 4-6 layed PCB, so more like $10-15 per PCB. Micro is probably $10-20 depending on what it is. Other components is difficult to guess on price as there is alot of possibilities there. Price for other components would range from $20 minimum to maybe over $100 max depending on what is there. To get the boards assembled would be $10-20 per board on surface mount pick and place machines/reflow or wave soldering. So price to make Procede could range from $50-200. Much harder to guess this one as alot more unknowns.

Interesting analysis! If you just average the guess the hardware cost seems to be $30 vs. $100.

Given that I don't believe these products are intended to compete in the same price points. The V3 has been priced at $1495 and the JB priced at $579/779 for the past few months. Now the V3 is dropping to $745/945, and the JB is dropping to $379/579.

From what I've seen they both process as similar number of inputs/outputs as currently implemented. Given a big change with BMW on signal processing or some other significant road block that required physical circuit changes it seems the JB could be more agile to respond. On the other hand the V3 hardware seems more likely to be able to easily add new channels as the hardware already allows for it.

With this latest JB I believe they gave them away for free to customers of their older hardware so that is their basic model. The V3 model seems to be to provide software changes and then charge customers for changes that require additional hardware or harness work. Given the new price points on each it is a very competitive market!

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by Riches335

Interesting analysis! If you just average the guess the hardware cost seems to be $30 vs. $100.

Given that I don't believe these products are intended to compete in the same price points. The V3 has been priced at $1495 and the JB priced at $579/779 for the past few months. Now the V3 is dropping to $745/945, and the JB is dropping to $379/579.

From what I've seen they both process as similar number of inputs/outputs as currently implemented. Given a big change with BMW on signal processing or some other significant road block that required physical circuit changes it seems the JB could be more agile to respond. On the other hand the V3 hardware seems more likely to be able to easily add new channels as the hardware already allows for it.

With this latest JB I believe they gave them away for free to customers of their older hardware so that is their basic model. The V3 model seems to be to provide software changes and then charge customers for changes that require additional hardware or harness work. Given the new price points on each it is a very competitive market!

Free JB's?

[munters]

Originally Posted by Riches335

Interesting analysis! If you just average the guess the hardware cost seems to be $30 vs. $100.

Given that I don't believe these products are intended to compete in the same price points. The V3 has been priced at $1495 and the JB priced at $579/779 for the past few months. Now the V3 is dropping to $745/945, and the JB is dropping to $379/579.

From what I've seen they both process as similar number of inputs/outputs as currently implemented. Given a big change with BMW on signal processing or some other significant road block that required physical circuit changes it seems the JB could be more agile to respond. On the other hand the V3 hardware seems more likely to be able to easily add new channels as the hardware already allows for it.

With this latest JB I believe they gave them away for free to customers of their older hardware so that is their basic model. The V3 model seems to be to provide software changes and then charge customers for changes that require additional hardware or harness work. Given the new price points on each it is a very competitive market!

That's not exactly the case.
The Procede I was an OEM product. So the price can't be compared.
The new Procede II is a "Vishnu design" therefore the pricetag can be different as we see.

About the future proof.
As far as I remember right, Terry mentioned once, that they still have one I/O left before they added the gauge which needs an I/O port.
(Like Procede I)
If we would know the exact Microcontrollers of both systems could help us to know what's possible in the future.
We just know, that the new Procede II has a lot more.

About the possible BMW Curveball in the future could be a bottleneck for the PIC device (JB3) because of the processing speed. But again we would need to know the exact type.
Again I didn't see the pictures...

[rdsport323]

I would like to see a comparison of the internal PCB of the Haltech Interceptor Platinum and the Rev 2

[munters]

Originally Posted by rdsport323

I would like to see a comparison of the internal PCB of the Haltech Interceptor Platinum and the Rev 2

At the moment this doesn't matter. If I could see the Microcontroller on it OK otherwise why? The new interceptor would not be equal anyways. So it doesn't help.