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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > VK Motorwerks 135/335i Direct Mount Intercooler



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      01-19-2009, 04:53 PM   #67
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So can we up the boost?
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      01-20-2009, 09:55 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banker335i View Post
So can we up the boost?
Yes you can up the boost. Since there is so much confusion about how this works we are going to redyno again and have the boost turned up on our FMIC to equate to about 14-15psi. Then you should be able to see the difference in hp/tq.

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      01-20-2009, 11:05 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edo View Post
If I have catless DPs (stock catback), DCI and Vishnu RevII, I can only use Stage 1 maps (stock catback).
Does getting a FMIC make sense? I'll have the same power but less boost will be needed to reach it. However, I can't use Stage 2 or Stage 3 maps with stock catback even if I get a FMIC. That means that getting a FMIC with my set up will only benefit for the long term reliability of turbos? But no power increase? Right?
Anyone?
If I get an aftermarket FMIC with my set up mentioned above, I'll only benefit for reliability and power consistently, but not power as I can't use Stage 3 maps with stock catback? Right?
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      01-20-2009, 11:26 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edo View Post
Anyone?
If I get an aftermarket FMIC with my set up mentioned above, I'll only benefit for reliability and power consistently, but not power as I can't use Stage 3 maps with stock catback? Right?
Regardless of the stage you run, if you put on a aftermarket FMIC, your IAT will drop effectively dropping the boost since the air will be cooler and more dense. You will then be able to turn up the tq settings and thus make more power. Besides, when you get bored of the power, its always comforting to know you can still upgrade further.
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      01-20-2009, 11:33 AM   #71
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People seem to be missing the Point...

Look at this Image. Look at the Variance ( or the amount of temperature rise over the dyno pull) You can see the stock IC starting to heatsoak as on the last pull the Intake Temperature rose 60 degree's. Now look at the VK IC, less than 6 degree's of temperature rise consistently. Colder Air = Denser Air = More Power = Less Strain on the Turbo's = More Reliability/Repeatability

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      01-20-2009, 11:41 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banker335i View Post
So can we up the boost?
Yes.

Shiv
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      01-20-2009, 11:48 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Yes.

Shiv
is the 91 octane permitted? how much can you raise?
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      01-20-2009, 12:01 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ontopofm View Post
is the 91 octane permitted? how much can you raise?
I'm on the latest maps and I've bumped UT to 92 on 91oct gas. I am also at higher elevation, so I see less boost then you sea level guys. Just keep an eye on WG DC.

I plan to up a little more to get at least 13.5 - 14psi.
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      01-20-2009, 02:23 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianTSi View Post
People seem to be missing the Point...

Look at this Image. Look at the Variance ( or the amount of temperature rise over the dyno pull) You can see the stock IC starting to heatsoak as on the last pull the Intake Temperature rose 60 degree's. Now look at the VK IC, less than 6 degree's of temperature rise consistently. Colder Air = Denser Air = More Power = Less Strain on the Turbo's = More Reliability/Repeatability


See, this seems fishy to me.

In 2 cases there is barely a temp rise,
and in one case there IS NO TEMP RISE.

I can not imagine an IC that is 100% efficient...

-scheherazade
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      01-20-2009, 03:01 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
See, this seems fishy to me.

In 2 cases there is barely a temp rise,
and in one case there IS NO TEMP RISE.

I can not imagine an IC that is 100% efficient...

-scheherazade
You're right... unless there is some sort of active cooling going on... something must have sucked up completely ALL the thermal energy that the turbos transferred into the intake charge.. otherwise the numbers are impossible to achieve...
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      01-20-2009, 03:15 PM   #77
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You are referring to our second run, here is the datalog from that run:


The runs were done at AMS, we are not affiliated with them, there was no tempering of any kind or any type of spraying. Chris@AMS can verify that. The only explanation I have for the drop in IAT temps may have been the fact the temp was 30F that day. You will see that the temps dropped during the beginning of the run but then rose thereafter.
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      01-20-2009, 03:20 PM   #78
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The IAT logs perfectly reasonable to me. A temp drop followed by a temp rise. Very typical of a upgraded FMIC (with more thermal mass than stock).

Shiv
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      01-20-2009, 11:39 PM   #79
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Yeah, I see. it’s just weird to me that the car would drop boost. i mean, as I’ve stated

Before. How does the car know how much HP you want? Why does it lower boost. Why

Would the HP not just go up. lol, ugg its kind of like, if I got a new exhaust, that was

25% more efficient, would it drop boost to keep the same power?

sorry for the Barny
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      01-20-2009, 11:41 PM   #80
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F it, as long as you guys know what your talking about its all good i guess.
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      01-21-2009, 12:19 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banker335i View Post
Yeah, I see. it’s just weird to me that the car would drop boost. i mean, as I’ve stated

Before. How does the car know how much HP you want? Why does it lower boost. Why

Would the HP not just go up. lol, ugg its kind of like, if I got a new exhaust, that was

25% more efficient, would it drop boost to keep the same power?

sorry for the Barny
Colder air! Less boost! I dont understand what you dont get.

Look, basically if the intercooler runs more efficiently (cooler IAT temps) it can produce more power with less boost.

Ex: If you car makes 300WHP @ 13psi stock then maybe....
With the aftermarket FMIC and cooler IAT temps you can hit 300WHP @
11.5PSI

You will need to adjust your torque values if you have a procede. You will be able to run a little higher to get your "old" target boost back. That is where your intercooler will show its true gains and beauty.

Our cars will drop boost in colder weather just like every other car. They don't need to "work" as hard in cold weather, in warmer weather your putting more stress on your car and all the parts because obviously everything will run hotter.

Bottom line is the intercooler works and is one hell of an investment. Also trying to show dyno #'s for the HP junkies with a FMIC upgrade on this forum is hard to do. Drive a car with an FMIC and you'll see the big gains up top when an normal FMIC would have insanely high IATS.

Forget the HP numbers for a minute and just look at Vince's IAT information.

Here is some information found on Wikipedia. Hope this helps people understand things a little bit better.

"As well as allowing a greater volume of air to be admitted to an engine, intercoolers have a key role in controlling the internal temperatures in a turbocharged engine. When fitted with a turbo (as with any form of supercharging), the engine's specific power is increased, leading to higher combustion and exhaust temperatures. The exhaust gases passing through the turbine section of the turbocharger are usually around 450 °C (840 °F), but can be as high as 650 °C (1200 °F) under extreme conditions. This heat passes through the turbocharger unit and contributes to the heating of the air being compressed in the compressor section of the turbo. If left uncooled this hot air enters the engine, further increasing internal temperatures. This leads to a build up of heat that will eventually stabilise, but this may be at temperatures in excess of the engine's design limits- 'hot spots' at the piston crown or exhaust valve can cause warping or cracking of these components. This effect is especially found in modified or tuned engines running at very high specific power outputs. An efficient intercooler removes heat from the air in the induction system, preventing the cyclic heat build-up via the turbocharger, allowing higher power outputs to be achieved without damage."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercooler
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      01-21-2009, 12:20 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banker335i View Post
F it, as long as you guys know what your talking about its all good i guess.
I promise you the investment is worth it. Especially if your running a tune. Its another insurance policy to make sure nothing can go wrong.
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      01-21-2009, 12:26 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
The IAT logs perfectly reasonable to me. A temp drop followed by a temp rise. Very typical of a upgraded FMIC (with more thermal mass than stock).

Shiv
I guess both scheherazade and I are misreading the data.

I think we both understood IAT start and IAT end to mean temperature of the air being taken in, measured at the air filter (IAT start), then measured again past the intercooler or near the throttle body (IAT end).

Where is this IAT being measured, and why does it drop then rise?
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      01-21-2009, 08:46 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sambonator View Post
I guess both scheherazade and I are misreading the data.

I think we both understood IAT start and IAT end to mean temperature of the air being taken in, measured at the air filter (IAT start), then measured again past the intercooler or near the throttle body (IAT end).

Where is this IAT being measured, and why does it drop then rise?
Doesn't the procede measure at the inlet?
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      01-21-2009, 09:25 AM   #85
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ok...... first.. I ordered one... i have no doubt it's worth it..etc... I'm not questioning that...

But.. what I don't understand is HOW Vince ended up with lower boost ... the car did that on it's own...

As someone else mentioned... HOW did the car know ? Same with hot/cold weather... How does the car change boost...

With V3 ... and torque settings set at say ...90 ... i thought that defined boost to be a certain value (i don't know what it is but i thought it was a constant)

How is the car/v3 adjusting on it's own... to magically keep almost the same power... how does it know ??
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      01-21-2009, 09:45 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inthemiddle View Post
ok...... first.. I ordered one... i have no doubt it's worth it..etc... I'm not questioning that...

But.. what I don't understand is HOW Vince ended up with lower boost ... the car did that on it's own...

As someone else mentioned... HOW did the car know ? Same with hot/cold weather... How does the car change boost...

With V3 ... and torque settings set at say ...90 ... i thought that defined boost to be a certain value (i don't know what it is but i thought it was a constant)

How is the car/v3 adjusting on it's own... to magically keep almost the same power... how does it know ??
MAGIC! LOL, sorry couldnt resist. Perhaps Shiv can explain this better.
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      01-21-2009, 09:55 AM   #87
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It's what others have said but I'll say it again.
More boost does not always mean more power.
I have proved this with other dynos that I've done in the past.

Cooler intake temps equal more power, so it's obvious that the VK Motorwerks IC lowered the intake air temps so the turbos didn't have to work as hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inthemiddle View Post
ok...... first.. I ordered one... i have no doubt it's worth it..etc... I'm not questioning that...

But.. what I don't understand is HOW Vince ended up with lower boost ... the car did that on it's own...

As someone else mentioned... HOW did the car know ? Same with hot/cold weather... How does the car change boost...

With V3 ... and torque settings set at say ...90 ... i thought that defined boost to be a certain value (i don't know what it is but i thought it was a constant)

How is the car/v3 adjusting on it's own... to magically keep almost the same power... how does it know ??
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      01-21-2009, 10:13 AM   #88
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IAT boost decay should dictate that colder IATs will run less boost because the oxygen content is much higher. Think of it like this... the same volume of air now contains more oxygen because the density has changed due to the colder air entering the engine. That means if boost is maintained then you will go lean because of the intercooler. To maintain the A/F ratios, I suspect the DME is lowering boost to keep things safe in its mind rather than increasing fuel to compensate.
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