E90Post
 


The Tire Rack
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > GIAC Stage 2 dyno graph - am I missing a few horses ?



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-23-2010, 05:46 PM   #67
themyst
Major General
themyst's Avatar
South Korea
177
Rep
6,631
Posts

Drives: '16 MK7 GTI
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NYC

iTrader: (8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianMN View Post
Ooook, so you're saying you dyno'd today at 254 with stock tune/DCI/IC/"dps", right? Or did you dyno at 254 with a completely stock car? Or was that 254 with cstavaru's BMW performance kit? If you dyno'd at 254 with all your 'bolt ons' today, then used the GIAC mapswitcher to get you into stage 2, then that 73 delta seems ok. But that isn't being implied.

Either way, you started a thread asking "Am I missing a few horsepower", and at 326hp (73whp delta), and you're getting feedback and suggestions.

re: the downpipes, do you need to see the picture again?



Correct, I think your delta is spot on. However, not sure we're comparing apples to apples and the whole picture as with the above. Was the 295 baseline with all the bolt ons or completely stock? I'd assume the baseline was with all the bolt ons and stock tune. Therefore, add another 30hp to your delta from completely stock to compare to this, giving you a delta of 148. So, take away meth +1.5psi, and it should leave you around 380, or a delta of 120.

It seems to be:

stock tune/stock parts = 255-270hp
stock tune + bolt ons = ~290-300hp
tune + 16psi should give around ~375hp
tune + 17.5psi + meth shoudl be around ~410hp.

That appears to be what the majority of these cars are doing.

FWIW, my dyno testing with the JB3 and V4, as well as 5 other N54's Ive personally seen dyno'd have lined up perfectly with those ranges.
Good point. My baseline was on stock boost + bolt-ons.
Appreciate 0
      12-23-2010, 10:04 PM   #68
Enicinitas
First Lieutenant
United_States
13
Rep
322
Posts

Drives: Gray Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Left Coast

iTrader: (8)

I'm getting the stg. 2 / plus flash off my car and getting a refund during the trial period. All I can say is that it isn't even worth my time to dyno it - I just don't enjoy it vs. the PROceed or even the JB3. Just my opinion, I have fun trying different tunes out there and although this is a very smooth tune I miss the low end delivery of the piggy's.
Appreciate 0
      12-23-2010, 10:31 PM   #69
BrianMN
Banned
114
Rep
2,428
Posts

Drives: 4 Door Family Sedan
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis

iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enicinitas View Post
I'm getting the stg. 2 / plus flash off my car and getting a refund during the trial period. All I can say is that it isn't even worth my time to dyno it - I just don't enjoy it vs. the PROceed or even the JB3. Just my opinion, I have fun trying different tunes out there and although this is a very smooth tune I miss the low end delivery of the piggy's.
A few people have said that putting the Boost Response user adjustable (on the Procede) down to 30-40 gives the perceived "smoothness" of the GIAC flashes. However I, like you, would not be happy with that at all. One of my favorite parts of the Procede is the boost response on low and partial throttle. The car feels sluggish when setting Boost Response down to 30, or even 50.
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2010, 02:18 AM   #70
R1000K3
Major
R1000K3's Avatar
United_States
55
Rep
1,311
Posts

Drives: 335i MT
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn999 View Post
I do it for performance only man, but they are directly correlated. You cant make up magical hp or tq that doesnt show up on the dyno. The only difference is that the car is actually moving and air(for fmic and dci). If anything, you will have more HP and tq on the actual road bc of the air differences. Ofcourse its all about performance numbers for me man, thats why I asked you to post some times so I could compare. I am getting a vbox or something of the sorts here soon. As far as the money goes, I dont care what it costs because I try and save for the best parts possible so I dont have to buy parts twice, I learned that the hard way.
I second that. It is always cheaper to buy the right stuff from the beginning instead of trading up step by step if maximum usable power is the goal. This is not to say 2.5" DP's are not OK, but they cannot flow as good as well made 3" DP's. The difference in cross-sectional area is huge in favor to 3". I think I may be the only one here in Sweden that have been running 20+ PSI week after week after week without issues and believe the turbos and engine are more happy in this situation with 3" DP's vs. 2.5".
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2010, 02:31 AM   #71
tscdennab
Banned
151
Rep
1,809
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Europe

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 BMW  [6.24]
Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
Good point. My baseline was on stock boost + bolt-ons.
My baseline was on stock boost + bolt-ons, minus the intake (I had the stock box and Helene drop-in filter 3 days ago when I did the baseline). I just switched the GIAC switcher to stock and dynoed.

By the way, here is a GIAC Stage 1 flash on a Mustang: 283-287whp max.

http://www.tsxclub.com/forums/695655-post1.html

Here is a stock 335i on Mustang: 239whp

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/att...2&d=1208633969

Last edited by tscdennab; 12-24-2010 at 04:12 AM..
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2010, 05:12 AM   #72
Big Tom
Banned
Sweden
57
Rep
1,054
Posts

Drives: 335i n54 e92 MT
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Västerås

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by R1000K3 View Post
I second that. It is always cheaper to buy the right stuff from the beginning instead of trading up step by step if maximum usable power is the goal. This is not to say 2.5" DP's are not OK, but they cannot flow as good as well made 3" DP's. The difference in cross-sectional area is huge in favor to 3". I think I may be the only one here in Sweden that have been running 20+ PSI week after week after week without issues and believe the turbos and engine are more happy in this situation with 3" DP's vs. 2.5".
Yes of course it's both better and cheaper to choose the right stuff from the beginning.
But my point in this thread was that I would never pay that extra money for a pair of 3" DP's and do the pain-in-the-ass-install again if I already had a pair of 2.5" aftermarket DP's installed in my car.

If there had been a noticeable improvement in performance, I'd probably had a different approach to this.

Äru me' kompis?

Last edited by Big Tom; 12-24-2010 at 05:37 AM..
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2010, 05:38 AM   #73
tscdennab
Banned
151
Rep
1,809
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Europe

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 BMW  [6.24]
Quote:
Originally Posted by R1000K3 View Post
I second that. It is always cheaper to buy the right stuff from the beginning instead of trading up step by step if maximum usable power is the goal. This is not to say 2.5" DP's are not OK, but they cannot flow as good as well made 3" DP's. The difference in cross-sectional area is huge in favor to 3". I think I may be the only one here in Sweden that have been running 20+ PSI week after week after week without issues and believe the turbos and engine are more happy in this situation with 3" DP's vs. 2.5".
20psi daily...you have reached quite some levels of confidence in the N54 engine there in Sweden
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2010, 06:20 AM   #74
R1000K3
Major
R1000K3's Avatar
United_States
55
Rep
1,311
Posts

Drives: 335i MT
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tscdennab View Post
20psi daily...you have reached quite some levels of confidence in the N54 engine there in Sweden
Yes I have good confidence in this since the crank has not walked out the by oil tray and the piston crowns have not grenaded. It is not the PSI that kills the engine (on this level), it is the absence of a proper tune, high octane fuel and safety mechanisms.
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2010, 07:14 AM   #75
R1000K3
Major
R1000K3's Avatar
United_States
55
Rep
1,311
Posts

Drives: 335i MT
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Tom View Post
Yes of course it's both better and cheaper to choose the right stuff from the beginning.
But my point in this thread was that I would never pay that extra money for a pair of 3" DP's and do the pain-in-the-ass-install again if I already had a pair of 2.5" aftermarket DP's installed in my car.

If there had been a noticeable improvement in performance, I'd probably had a different approach to this.

Äru me' kompis?
Agree, I wouldn't pay almost $1K to replace existing uncatted 2.5" DP's to 3" if the car runs as good as yours. But I believe the 3" DP's is an important part of the puzzle to get good performances and e.g. run below 3 seconds 100-150 km/h and there is no big reason to chose 2.5 instead of 3" when replacing stockers since the price difference is not huge and it is a lot of work involved. If I remember correct the 2.9 s 100-150 km/h run was on a 18+ PSI level, and the car is even stronger now thanks to more boost and BigTom IC. http://s407.photobucket.com/albums/p...00to150kmh.jpg I don't know about any other car in Sweden except mine making this so far. Enrita will soon be there though and should have capability to climb down a bit further when the roads are grippy again.

What will be real interesting next year is to see how good Enritas car runs vs. other st. 3 cars.
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2010, 11:14 AM   #76
99three
Banned
25
Rep
838
Posts

Drives: 993, e92, e36, F355, Z32, Jag
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: in the 416

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tscdennab View Post
UPDATE: After re-dynoing with Injen intake, I obtained an extra 11whp, making it a 74whp delta (graph below). 27 more to go...

Today I went to the dyno and did some runs. It's a Mustang dyno.

Mods:

- Stock airbox with Helene drop-in filter
- 2.5" catless downpipes
- Wagner intercooler

The outside temperature was about 3-4 degrees Celsius. Maximum boost was 15.7psi. The AFR after 3500RPM was between 11 and 10.7. The uncorrected power level was about 330whp (264whp stock). The corrected power level was 316whp (253whp stock).

I obtained a delta of 63whp. However, GIAC advertises a delta of 100whp. One question is, can a DCI and a removed secondary cat recover this difference ? I for one do not think so. But I installed the Injen intake after the dyno...I hope to re-dyno very soon to see if I get any additional power.

Feel free to comment...
I'm concerned that you are hanging your hat on the "ultimate power gained" since a) you don't have the full compliment of sustaining your power gains and b) you don't disclose the mileage and/or the overall health of your motor.
Before pointing any fingers or jumping to unreliable conclusions, you should check to see if your motor is operating at spec; meaning compression is up to snuff, no (boost) leaks, leak down test performed, etc. Share your numbers and we could possibly nail this down for you. Some folks here try to help, albeit there’s a lot more prediction than knowledge but that’s where you need to deduct the crazy talk to facts. Numbers don’t lie.

BTW- The data provided by Mr. 5 should have been an eye opener (endorsing my previous suggestion that you should upgrade your DP's to 3”) to the skeptics, suggesting that size does matter - to the turbo car world that is.
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2010, 02:32 PM   #77
tscdennab
Banned
151
Rep
1,809
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Europe

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 BMW  [6.24]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 99three View Post
I'm concerned that you are hanging your hat on the "ultimate power gained" since a) you don't have the full compliment of sustaining your power gains and b) you don't disclose the mileage and/or the overall health of your motor.
Well, I have about 30.000 miles of which the last 1000 tuned...I'm pretty sure my engine is not the problem at all

The only thing I am missing from sustaining my power gains is removal of the second cats. The rest of the parts are there, but indeed they may not be the best ones and here comes the part of guessing what are the biggest bottlenecks, which I will only find out probably the hard way.
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2010, 02:41 PM   #78
packinDSS
Lead Foot
packinDSS's Avatar
18
Rep
409
Posts

Drives: 2007 BMW 335i Sedan
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: North Jersey

iTrader: (1)

I really believe your homade downpipes are costing you power. I know they are a bitch to change but they will be worth it.
Appreciate 0
      12-24-2010, 03:01 PM   #79
tscdennab
Banned
151
Rep
1,809
Posts

Drives: BMW 335i
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Europe

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 BMW  [6.24]
Quote:
Originally Posted by packinDSS View Post
I really believe your homade downpipes are costing you power. I know they are a bitch to change but they will be worth it.
I will probably order 3" downpipes after Christmas. But I am pretty positive I still need to do more than this, they cannot possibly account for ~25whp. But we'll see
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2010, 01:30 PM   #80
Penn999
Lieutenant Colonel
Penn999's Avatar
49
Rep
1,661
Posts

Drives: 335i coupe
Join Date: May 2010
Location: VA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by R1000K3 View Post
Agree, I wouldn't pay almost $1K to replace existing uncatted 2.5" DP's to 3" if the car runs as good as yours. But I believe the 3" DP's is an important part of the puzzle to get good performances and e.g. run below 3 seconds 100-150 km/h and there is no big reason to chose 2.5 instead of 3" when replacing stockers since the price difference is not huge and it is a lot of work involved. If I remember correct the 2.9 s 100-150 km/h run was on a 18+ PSI level, and the car is even stronger now thanks to more boost and BigTom IC. http://s407.photobucket.com/albums/p...00to150kmh.jpg I don't know about any other car in Sweden except mine making this so far. Enrita will soon be there though and should have capability to climb down a bit further when the roads are grippy again.

What will be real interesting next year is to see how good Enritas car runs vs. other st. 3 cars.
+1, I cant wait to see enritas car vs. all others in the n54 game. Currently he has to be one of top, a large part of that is due to the $$ that has been dumped in his ride. who is to say money cant buy happiness?? thats bullshit.. Happiness=seeing cars/BIKES(yes I beat a ninja 600 the other day) in your review mirror! BTW, R1000k3, if you want to beat big tom, I would look into swapping out that FMIC, I know yall are cool but you cant beat him if you have the same parts as him..
__________________
07' MT, Quaife LSD, BMW Performance LED Steering Wheel, HPF FMIC, AA BOV, HPF Exhaust, DCI, Procede V5, AR Stage 1 oil cooler, AR OCC, AR CL DP's, Vishnu Meth Kit, UUC SSK+DSSR, UUC Shift knob, (19 inch)VMR V715's/Yokohama Advan AD08's, Hartge Pedals and Floor Mats. Awaiting Install: M3 Rear Subframe Bushings, Full M3 suspension bits, AST 4100's, DSS axles. Future plans: Vishnu Single turbo kit
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2010, 01:33 PM   #81
enrita
Major General
enrita's Avatar
Sweden
159
Rep
7,378
Posts

Drives: 335i - Big turbos
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Italian in Sweden

iTrader: (0)

:-) in 3 months we will be able to finally do some new airfield runs with lots of videos :-)
__________________
07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD E85 BMS flash - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Snow Stg. 3 - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2010, 01:51 PM   #82
Penn999
Lieutenant Colonel
Penn999's Avatar
49
Rep
1,661
Posts

Drives: 335i coupe
Join Date: May 2010
Location: VA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
:-) in 3 months we will be able to finally do some new airfield runs with lots of videos :-)
I cant wait, haha forget christmas. This will be my christmas, I think I have watched literally every video on youtube about the n54. Make sure you get a camera mounted so that it shows the cars in your rear view...LOL i have a feeling that we will be watching more from your rear view than from the passenger/driver window. JUST A PREDICTION...that is until dzenno gets in his rb's. Now that is gonna be one hell of a race, I would LOVE to see that race, and more than once. AT vs MT, diff. turbo setup...I will sponsor the pay-per-view...
__________________
07' MT, Quaife LSD, BMW Performance LED Steering Wheel, HPF FMIC, AA BOV, HPF Exhaust, DCI, Procede V5, AR Stage 1 oil cooler, AR OCC, AR CL DP's, Vishnu Meth Kit, UUC SSK+DSSR, UUC Shift knob, (19 inch)VMR V715's/Yokohama Advan AD08's, Hartge Pedals and Floor Mats. Awaiting Install: M3 Rear Subframe Bushings, Full M3 suspension bits, AST 4100's, DSS axles. Future plans: Vishnu Single turbo kit
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2010, 01:52 PM   #83
G.I.Joe
Major
G.I.Joe's Avatar
Denmark
30
Rep
1,041
Posts

Drives: E92 335i 2008
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
:-) in 3 months we will be able to finally do some new airfield runs with lots of videos :-)
Cool, I've been watching a lot of those airfield race videos the last few days, as it's virtually imposible to drive anywhere with all the snow around here. Do you have a lot of events over the spring/summer? Would be cool to see and hear all those crazy fast cars

OP, Sorry for the OT, hope you find all your missing "ponys"
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2010, 01:56 PM   #84
R1000K3
Major
R1000K3's Avatar
United_States
55
Rep
1,311
Posts

Drives: 335i MT
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn999 View Post
+1, I cant wait to see enritas car vs. all others in the n54 game. Currently he has to be one of top, a large part of that is due to the $$ that has been dumped in his ride. who is to say money cant buy happiness?? thats bullshit.. Happiness=seeing cars/BIKES(yes I beat a ninja 600 the other day) in your review mirror! BTW, R1000k3, if you want to beat big tom, I would look into swapping out that FMIC, I know yall are cool but you cant beat him if you have the same parts as him..

The BigTom IC works great, as have been reported by people using it. I'm honestly not aware of any other IC at the moment that is proven to be better. There are a lot of differences between his and my car so the outcome in future events is unknown
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2010, 02:01 PM   #85
Penn999
Lieutenant Colonel
Penn999's Avatar
49
Rep
1,661
Posts

Drives: 335i coupe
Join Date: May 2010
Location: VA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by R1000K3 View Post
The BigTom IC works great, as have been reported by people using it. I'm honestly not aware of any other IC at the moment that is proven to be better. There are a lot of differences between his and my car so the outcome in future events is unknown
HPF, I have stated why on other threads.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=465917&page=2

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=469384
__________________
07' MT, Quaife LSD, BMW Performance LED Steering Wheel, HPF FMIC, AA BOV, HPF Exhaust, DCI, Procede V5, AR Stage 1 oil cooler, AR OCC, AR CL DP's, Vishnu Meth Kit, UUC SSK+DSSR, UUC Shift knob, (19 inch)VMR V715's/Yokohama Advan AD08's, Hartge Pedals and Floor Mats. Awaiting Install: M3 Rear Subframe Bushings, Full M3 suspension bits, AST 4100's, DSS axles. Future plans: Vishnu Single turbo kit
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2010, 03:45 PM   #86
R1000K3
Major
R1000K3's Avatar
United_States
55
Rep
1,311
Posts

Drives: 335i MT
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn999 View Post
Both HPF and Helix are for sure premium IC's and the HPF unit looks very good.

1. Is there any proof the HPF IC performs better than the BigTom IC, which has a substantially larger core?

2. What are the dimensions on HPF's inlet and outlet connections? Is it full 3" as on the BT-unit?
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2010, 04:01 PM   #87
Penn999
Lieutenant Colonel
Penn999's Avatar
49
Rep
1,661
Posts

Drives: 335i coupe
Join Date: May 2010
Location: VA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by R1000K3 View Post
Both HPF and Helix are for sure premium IC's and the HPF unit looks very good.

1. Is there any proof the HPF IC performs better than the BigTom IC, which has a substantially larger core?

2. What are the dimensions on HPF's inlet and outlet connections? Is it full 3" as on the BT-unit?
No proof yet, I will be dynoing my car on Jan. 8th. Mods are as listed below, I will be doing this run with fbo and 93, one run will include race gas(sunoco 104). Do you have any numbers to compare to. Some say as high as 35whp but I dont believe that. We will see, as far as dimensions go, I dont know, I will have to do some more research.
__________________
07' MT, Quaife LSD, BMW Performance LED Steering Wheel, HPF FMIC, AA BOV, HPF Exhaust, DCI, Procede V5, AR Stage 1 oil cooler, AR OCC, AR CL DP's, Vishnu Meth Kit, UUC SSK+DSSR, UUC Shift knob, (19 inch)VMR V715's/Yokohama Advan AD08's, Hartge Pedals and Floor Mats. Awaiting Install: M3 Rear Subframe Bushings, Full M3 suspension bits, AST 4100's, DSS axles. Future plans: Vishnu Single turbo kit
Appreciate 0
      12-26-2010, 04:17 PM   #88
R1000K3
Major
R1000K3's Avatar
United_States
55
Rep
1,311
Posts

Drives: 335i MT
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

I don't know how much the BigTom IC increases the power. In my case it is now possible to run 20 totally limp free PSI's and it was 18+ PSI before with a Helix-copy. Whatever the reason is, many factors comes into play, the power increase should be about 10% turbo power (that is 200 on a 400 hp level) , i.e. like 20 horses more with 20 PSI vs. 18 PSI. It is also not only about peak power, the new IC pulls noticeable better on high RPM's where important extra speed is built.
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:29 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST