[davethefish]

Hi all,
bit of a big first post but here i go....
i've been researching my engine noise on and off for months, and think i have finally figured it out.
i found some more references to this N47 engine problem, with the exact same noise as mine.

one guy with a 120d (N47) had a sprocket, timing chains and crankshaft, plus bearing shells replaced.
and another with a 520d (N47) had timing chain, guide tensioners, and oil pump replaced.
http://forum.bmw5.co.uk/topic/59506-200 ... when-warm/

Sytners have diagnosed that the timing chains, guides ect, are the fault.
just awaiting my warranty company who are sending someone out to inspect the car on friday, to authorise the work to be done.
sytner's have then said the work will take about a week to complete.

the warranty company are refusing to authorise the repair, saying it's wear and tear.

Sytners have now said the whole crankshaft and a load of other timing chain parts need replacing.
the initial quote for the work is £4,300 though Sytners have said they will try to work out a discount.
asked Sytners to see if BMW would consider making a goodwill payment towards the cost, but they said that BMW wouldn't consider it because i bought a 3rd party warranty when i bought the car...

tbh i'm really annoyed that this seems to be a common problem on an new design of engine where the timing chain is at the rear of the engine, that obviously has teething troubles.

Sytner's contacted BMW on my behalf.
Sytner's said that BMW wouldn't contribute toward the cost of parts or labour,
because i purchased the car from black horse car sales, and got there warranty (which doesn't cover the repair).
so won't contribute to any car with a 3rd party warranty, even if that warranty doesn't cover the fault.

[davethefish]

just got back from Sytners.
to be fair, they offered a substantial discount on the repair down to £3,400,
i felt they tried to be as accommodating as possible, and did all they could on their behalf as a main dealer.

i phoned BMW UK customer services myself, and was told that they will not make any 'good will' payment towards the cost of replacing a manufactured defective crankshaft on a 3 year old car.
because i bought a 3rd party warranty, even though that warranty doesn't cover the defective part, so i am utterly disgusted with BMW UK.

i am now going through the complaints procedure with the warranty company,
not that it will do any good...
as i have been told that they won't, and don't, pay out for anything less than a complete mechanical failure.

so it looks like i've got some saving up to do......

[xenon]

Whilst I sympathise if you bought a car outside the dealer network and without approved warranty I don't know why BMW UK should be liable unless it's done a very low mileage. Is there full BMW service history?

[xenon]

It's a possible avenue but the Sale of Goods Act makes the seller liable, not the manufacturer, so it would be Black Horse who you would try and persue.

It would be a hard slog though and if the car has been serviced outside the franchised network you'd have a really tough time.

[davethefish]

Originally Posted by xenon

Whilst I sympathise if you bought a car outside the dealer network and without approved warranty I don't know why BMW UK should be liable unless it's done a very low mileage. Is there full BMW service history?

hi,
the reason i'm so irate about the stance BMW UK has taken is,
it seems to be caused by a manufacturers defect, a fault in the manufacture of the timing cogs in the crankshaft,
that prematurely causes the chain and then guides to wear out and become noisy, followed eventually the complete failure of the timing chain.
there are lots of references on-line to N47 engines with this failure.

and yes the car has a full bmw service history.

http://translate.google.com/translat...7t28print.html

http://translate.google.com/translat...enal-578548%2F

[davethefish]

Originally Posted by Diseasel

Take your fight up with the sale of goods act on your side.

This can cover you up to 6 years depending on the value of the item bought.

Things should expect to last a reasonable amount of time.

I got a TV repaired for free that was 3 years old this way.

Car companies should also be easy to beat given the value of the item.

They have to prove it was not a manufacturing fault that caused the problem. Not the other way around.

Im surprised no one has ever tried this method of getting free repairs outside of warranty.

Many people use this in other industries with great success.

Your fight may be with Black horse now though and not BMW

your are probably right, and they will be my next port of call.
i just expected better of a 'prestige' brand like BMW.
even a small contribution on the parts would have been gratefully excepted....

tbh it has really marred my first experience of owning a BMW,
after hundreds of thousands of miles, of trouble free motoring with Fords.

[xenon]

How many miles has your engine done, Dave?

[davethefish]

Originally Posted by xenon

How many miles has your engine done, Dave?

79k,
not super low mileage by any standards i know,
but not anywhere near the point i'd expect to have to replace the crankshaft either....

[xenon]

I agree entirely. If you have a FULL BMW service history then I think you have a very good case - I think you'd have been on a hiding to nothing otherwise.

How long have you owned the car?

[xenon]

The good thing is it's very easy to bring a claim in the Small Claims Court and you can do it on line:

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

It costs £50 but you must have exhausted all other avenues first. I would write to Black Horse and say that you hold them as the supplier liable as it would be reasonable to expect the crank and ancilliary equipment on a modern car fully maintained as per the manufacturers schedule, to last longer than it has. You might suggest that they contribute a significant sum (if not all) because of wear & tear and contribution (i.e. you've had some use from the car yourself, it isn't totally dead).

You have to be seen to be reasonable, this will help your case enormously when arbitrated.

Give the Company 14 days to respond to your complaint.

If they don't, fire in a claim as above and then they will get an official summons from HMCTS and that may very well make them reconsider....

[davethefish]

Originally Posted by xenon

I agree entirely. If you have a FULL BMW service history then I think you have a very good case - I think you'd have been on a hiding to nothing otherwise.

How long have you owned the car?

but because i've taken out a car warranty insurance with a 3rd party,
BMW UK stated that there is no chance of a goodwill payment because of this.

so i'm left with either a time consuming, and lengthy legal battle to get compensation from the seller and/or warranty company.
or take the hit for the full repair.

and i've had the car about 6 months.

[xenon]

The good thing is it's very easy to bring a claim in the Small Claims Court and you can do it on line:

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

It costs £50 but you must have exhausted all other avenues first. I would write to Black Horse and say that you hold them as the supplier liable as it would be reasonable to expect the crank and ancilliary equipment on a modern car fully maintained as per the manufacturers schedule, to last longer than it has. You might suggest that they contribute a significant sum (if not all) because of wear & tear and contribution (i.e. you've had some use from the car yourself, it isn't totally dead).

You have to be seen to be reasonable, this will help your case enormously when arbitrated.

Give the Company 14 days to respond to your complaint.

If they don't, fire in a claim as above and then they will get an official summons from HMCTS and that may very well make them reconsider....

[davethefish]

Originally Posted by xenon

The good thing is it's very easy to bring a claim in the Small Claims Court and you can do it on line:

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

It costs £50 but you must have exhausted all other avenues first. I would write to Black Horse and say that you hold them as the supplier liable as it would be reasonable to expect the crank and ancilliary equipment on a modern car fully maintained as per the manufacturers schedule, to last longer than it has. You might suggest that they contribute a significant sum (if not all) because of wear & tear and contribution (i.e. you've had some use from the car yourself, it isn't totally dead).

You have to be seen to be reasonable, this will help your case enormously when arbitrated.

Give the Company 14 days to respond to your complaint.

If they don't, fire in a claim as above and then they will get an official summons from HMCTS and that may very well make them reconsider....

thanks for the advise,
i may consider that after we have exhausted the complaints procedure via the warranty company...

[xenon]

Mind you, I see your in Bedworth. Are you sure the noise isn't the neighbours' knuckles dragging on the ground?

<jk>

[bmwak]

I think pursuing it with the supplying company is probably the best port of call for your situation. How old is your car?

Unfortunetely BMW's goodwill is exactly that, a goodwill that they are not obliged to offer.


These third party warranties are usually very hard at negotiating with garages. I've had experiences with them and on one occasion they said to the garage that the cost of the part was too high and to look for a non OEM part. When my garage refused they said they'll source and send the part to the garage and they can just do the labour. Even with the labour, they tried to negotiate with the dealer to try and hammer it down. When the part arrived it was an inferior part that I simply refused to accept. They turned around and basically said take it or leave it.

I guess there thoughts may have been that your car may have had previous non genuine parts, which may have contributed to the cause. Whether it is the case or not is another story but doubt BMW UK would spend the time to investigate.

[davethefish]

Originally Posted by xenon

Mind you, I see your in Bedworth. Are you sure the noise isn't the neighbours' knuckles dragging on the ground?

<jk>

i'm a coventrian invader in bedworth... so you could be right.
though the missus is a native here and would probably club me if she read this post.

...strangely most of my neighbours aren't from bedworth either....

[davethefish]

Originally Posted by bmwak

I think pursuing it with the supplying company is probably the best port of call for your situation. How old is your car?

Unfortunetely BMW's goodwill is exactly that, a goodwill that they are not obliged to offer.


These third party warranties are usually very hard at negotiating with garages. I've had experiences with them and on one occasion they said to the garage that the cost of the part was too high and to look for a non OEM part. When my garage refused they said they'll source and send the part to the garage and they can just do the labour. Even with the labour, they tried to negotiate with the dealer to try and hammer it down. When the part arrived it was an inferior part that I simply refused to accept. They turned around and basically said take it or leave it.

I guess there thoughts may have been that your car may have had previous non genuine parts, which may have contributed to the cause. Whether it is the case or not is another story but doubt BMW UK would spend the time to investigate.

my car is 3 years old, 2008 with 79k

although they may not be obliged, to offer a 'goodwill' payment.
given the cars age, mileage, and fact that many N47 engines have suffered the same fate due to manufacturing defects in the crankshaft.
leading eventually to the catastrophic engine failure of a timing chain snapping...
...you'd think they would be more sympathetic.

[davethefish]

bit of an update...
the car went in to sytners on wednesday the 19th to have all the work done.
i couldn't risk the engine blowing up, and my wife didn't feel safe in the car anymore...

they said the work should be completed by friday, so hopefully i'll be back on the road then, and the problem with the car will be all sorted.

[NormanHomes]

did you fork out 3400 in the end? did you not consider just changing the engine? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-116D-1...item19c97346ba

[davethefish]

the quote is for £3400, but the work hasn't been completed yet.
should be done by this Friday...

for me, the problem with swapping out the whole engine by an ebay seller, is how do you really know what the mileage of the engine is?
and what standard of workmanship to expect?

i'd hate to find out 6 months down the line i had inherited an engine with a host of other problems, or problems caused by the quality/expertise of the fitting...

[davethefish]

p.s just found this thread about the engine fitters in that ebay link...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...ing+ages&mid=0

[NormanHomes]

Originally Posted by davethefish

p.s just found this thread about the engine fitters in that ebay link...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...ing+ages&mid=0

Haha guess that was a bad example then. Still a few pennies could have been saved changing the engine

i know what you mean about trusting garages though i always do everything myself and i only trust my car to a select couple of people