[Gibbo]

I first owned a Diesel car 5 years ago and the cost difference per litre was 2p or about 10p a gallon. Now the difference is 10p a litre or nearly 50p a gallon. At a base commodity level I can only assume this is supply and demand based and if so will this price gap widen in the future or even off?

If it widens further my thoughts lead to what effect this will have on the car market and specifically the everyday performance car. For example, VW are moving towards more powerful smaller efficient engines with the 1.4 turbo/supercharged engine with upto 170bhp. This engine has a claimed average of 38mpg. Also the 1.6 170bhp unit in the mini has an average of 45mpg. Plus there is the efficient BMW 4 cylinder engines.

So in the near future if we can have claimed 40mpg engines (I know they will do a bit less in the real world) how will these compare to diesels.

At 40mpg - diesel 10% premium has to do 44mpg equivalent
At 40mpg - diesel 20% premium has to do 48mpg equivalent

On top of this the cost of a diesel car is normally atleast £1,000 more than the equivalent petrol and it makes a very strong case for itself unless you are a very high mileage driver.

[Bumps]

An interesting one Gibbo. Not sure about the economics but the huge demand in Europe for diesel most definitely has something to do with the price diff, and I don't see it getting better too soon. Now, the price diff with a diesel car is beginning, in some market sectors, to make diesels less economically viable.

For instance, my 320i does 36mpg overall on Shell V Power (claimed 44.8!!) My wife gets 40mpg out of our A6 1.9tdi Avant, so go figure which is the cheapest to run!! Well, as Diesel is running at roughly a 10% premium to petrol, they are pretty much equal in terms of fuel running costs, and the balance may tip in favour of the 320i depending on how prices go. Who'd a thunk it?!

[Gibbo]

Bumps, that matches my thoughts exactly. My 335d says it does 41mpg and it does 36mpg average. Our fabia vRS does 47mpg av. but it's a much smaller car than your Audi.

I am thinking if BMW Turbo charge the 1.6 or 1.8 they will have the power of a 2l with better economy and suddenly petrol becomes even more desirable.

[vivekk]

I saw a programme on Channel5 this morning about the port of Singapore & it included information about one of the largest container ships in the world- the OOCL Shenzhen.

With diesel consumption of over 10 tonnes per hour, a single full tank would carry enough fuel to power 150 cars for one whole year.



It makes diesel usage by cars pale into insignificance.

Viv

[DervFan]

I think it basically comes down to the fact that OPEC aren't producing enough to fuel (pun) demand. This is deliberate policy to drive up pricing and the oil commodoties market aren't helping either

Similarly the government are just sitting there with the VAT and Excise Duty 'cash cow' and are just creaming the likes of us....

I was only thinking the other day, during the fuel protests in 2000, I was paying about 78p/litre for petrol. It took nearly 8 years to reach the £1/litre mark - ever since the price hasn't stopped.

Diesel ranges from 115p-125p litre locally, and this is mostly supermarkets who drove out competition from local franchises (causing them to go under) and now they're the only local sources, they've been cashing in...b@st@rds !

Be interesting to see how much longer we can sustain these price increases, without some backlash.....

[Cafe.Racer]

I've been wondering for a while at what price differential it makes it worth having a petrol again, but not bothered to work it out.

My problem is that I wouldn't be looking at a little engine

[Hotcoupe]

Cafe.Racer I've been wondering for a while at what price differential it makes it worth having a petrol again, but not bothered to work it out.

I have, and it's clear that the days of buying diesel cars because they are more economical over petrol cars is coming to a rapid end, in fact it is possibly already here,now.

Good thread Gibbo, and certainly relevant to my thinking over the last couple of weeks.

By the way Viv, your picture and comments were far from off topic,shipping is one reason why the price of diesel is/will sky rocket in price:

http://www.whatcar.com/news-article.aspx?NA=231993

A very good comparison is the 335D M Sport coupe, it lists (no options) at £38,135 - the same variant but with a petrol engine lists at £36,070, so a good £2000 cheaper then the diesel.

With diesel now costing on average (in the south) 10p a litre more then petrol, the benefits of running a diesel have pretty much been eroded.

Figures based on 20,000 mls:

A diesel 335D running at an average of 36 mls to the gallon (based on my own experience) will cost £3,000 approx. (15p per mile @ £5.50 per gallon)

A petrol 335i running at an average of 31 mls to the gallon (based on BMW official combined figures) will cost £3200 approx. (16p per mile @ £5.03 per gallon)

So if you take the price differential between the diesel and petrol of £2000 approx and the more than acceptable extra cost of £200 for running a petrol fuelled car,the next car for me will be a petrol one, if things stay as they are.
I'm sure there is stuff I've missed, but based on my quick sums,there is no reason why I could not justify one of these :

[AlanQS]

Take a look at BMW price differentials between diesel and petrol. My own interest area the 320d and 320i coupe shows a £2,000 differential. The petrol engine has a 1% lower BIK rating than the diesel though the actual CO2 is higher. The official fuel consumption figures belong in cloud cuckoo land so let's assume the diesel is typically 12 miles per gallon better (and I think that's generous). 12,000 miles at today's prices will cost:
Petrol: £1,822
Diesel: £1,526

This represents a saving of £889 over three years at 12k per year but you paid over £2,000 more in the first place. Assume on selling the car, you get £1,000 more for the diesel than for the petrol and you are still out of pocket.
Repeat this for the 325i and 325d and you get a similar story but this time you have missed out on a genuine performance gain - and the silky smooth 6 cylinder petrol engine.
To me the most interesting one is between the 320d and 325i. It works out ixy pixy between these two cost wise but not only do you get the performance and refinement but you get additional equipment in the 6 cylinder that is missing on the four.
But.. - there's always a but, I suspect that the 320d would actually have a better residual value at three years old than the 325i. Since the prices would be starting off level, the 320d would have the undoubted edge due to vastly superior fuel economy and the target market for these cars in three years time may very well be people with great concern about fuel costs.

<Maybe I didn't make the wrong choice after all>

[BC4J]

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

A very good comparison is the 335D M Sport coupe, it lists (no options) at £38,135 - the same variant but with a petrol engine lists at £36,070, so a good £2000 cheaper then the diesel.

Apples and oranges comparo. 335D has auto as standard, so to compare like with like add £1590 to 335i price. 335i fuel consumption will also increase with the auto in place.

[beemerbird]

Good thread Gibbo. Done some figures and as others have said, the differential between petrol and diesel at the pump and the initial outlay of a diesel, the 'gap' has narrowed considerably for the diesels now being the cost effective option, even withstanding high mileage.

My local Esso garage has unleaded at £108.9 and diesel at £119.9 per litre. This equates to £4.94 per gallon for the unleaded and £5.44 for the diesel based on a gallon being 4.54 litres.

Based on my 'average' driving, the Porsche is returning 22 mpg = 22.45 pence per mile. The 335d averaged 32 mpg = 17.00 pence per mile. Cost p.a. for fuel over 11k equals £2469.50 for the Porsche and £1,870 for the 335d. The Porsche costing £599.50 p.a. more in fuel. Notwithstanding the VED band of course. When you work it out on todays diesel fuel prices, the additional fuel costs p.a. is not great by any means IMO. For me on my annual mileage, the extra cost isn't too bad. Then add in the fun factor of the Porsche and what the hell.

[CrimsonRedE93]

Just goes to show that there are a lot of variables to consider when choosing your next car Its nowhere near a clearcut case.

[Hotcoupe]

BC4J Quote:
Apples and oranges comparo. 335D has auto as standard, so to compare like with like add £1590 to 335i price. 335i fuel consumption will also increase with the auto in place.

Fair enough, but given I said:

Hotcoupe Quote:
I'm sure there is stuff I've missed

and if you add an auto box to the 335i, which will then give you a price difference of £475.00 in the petrol burners favour + you allow for a lesser return in petrol consumption for the 335i, the difference between the 2 variants is still not as significant as it once was.

The reasons I bought a diesel over a petrol have certainly diminished quite considerably over the years, yes it does everything spectacularly well, but I don't think I can use the same reasons for buying diesel again.

As Helen stated, it really depends on circumstances, but the statement my dealer used, "It only really pays to buy diesel if you exceed 14,000 mls a year", is certainly not the case, and even at 20,000 mls its a total nonsense imo,and based on my calculations.

[Gibbo]

Looking at Ian's and Helen's calculations the maths seem to add up even if the engine size is of the 3 litre plus varients.

In relation to loosing average £4 to £6k a year depreciation over 3 years on a BMW the fuel cost has always been pretty minimal. But it's a very visable cost on a weekly basis and therefore wrong ditatates the 2nd hand value of cars.

Fuel will go up no question but if the Diesel premium become 20% imo it moves me into a Petrol car again and will devalue 2nd hand diesel cars.

It will be interesting if this happens if BMW make the retail price gap less between a petrol and a diesel to keep sales going and then we will know we have been ripped off over all these years.

If I go back to petrol I will have to remember how to rev a car beyond 5,000rpm.

[Gibbo]

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

I have, and it's clear that the days of buying diesel cars because they are more economical over petrol cars is coming to a rapid end, in fact it is possibly already here,now.

Good thread Gibbo, and certainly relevant to my thinking over the last couple of weeks.

By the way Viv, your picture and comments were far from off topic,shipping is one reason why the price of diesel is/will sky rocket in price:

http://www.whatcar.com/news-article.aspx?NA=231993

A very good comparison is the 335D M Sport coupe, it lists (no options) at £38,135 - the same variant but with a petrol engine lists at £36,070, so a good £2000 cheaper then the diesel.

With diesel now costing on average (in the south) 10p a litre more then petrol, the benefits of running a diesel have pretty much been eroded.

Figures based on 20,000 mls:

A diesel 335D running at an average of 36 mls to the gallon (based on my own experience) will cost £3,000 approx. (15p per mile @ £5.50 per gallon)

A petrol 335i running at an average of 31 mls to the gallon (based on BMW official combined figures) will cost £3200 approx. (16p per mile @ £5.03 per gallon)

So if you take the price differential between the diesel and petrol of £2000 approx and the more than acceptable extra cost of £200 for running a petrol fuelled car,the next car for me will be a petrol one, if things stay as they are.
I'm sure there is stuff I've missed, but based on my quick sums,there is no reason why I could not justify one of these :

Ian how much is a new B3? From memory these cars come loaded with options as std.

[Real Thing]

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

A very good comparison is the 335D M Sport coupe, it lists (no options) at £38,135 - the same variant but with a petrol engine lists at £36,070, so a good £2000 cheaper then the diesel.

With diesel now costing on average (in the south) 10p a litre more then petrol, the benefits of running a diesel have pretty much been eroded.

Figures based on 20,000 mls:

A diesel 335D running at an average of 36 mls to the gallon (based on my own experience) will cost £3,000 approx. (15p per mile @ £5.50 per gallon)

A petrol 335i running at an average of 31 mls to the gallon (based on BMW official combined figures) will cost £3200 approx. (16p per mile @ £5.03 per gallon)

So if you take the price differential between the diesel and petrol of £2000 approx and the more than acceptable extra cost of £200 for running a petrol fuelled car,the next car for me will be a petrol one, if things stay as they are.
I'm sure there is stuff I've missed, but based on my quick sums,there is no reason why I could not justify one of these :

Having owned a 335 d & i I think the running average for the i is a bit optimistic I achieved similar to you in the d (36 mpg) but only about 26 mpg in the 335i added to this that the residuals on a 1 year old Diesel would be about £750-£1000 more + as B4CJ pointed out the Diesel is Auto So I think we might be a little way from converting everyone back to petrol yet!
Interested thread Gibbo

[Hotcoupe]

Gibbo Quote:
Ian how much is a new B3? From memory these cars come loaded with options as std.

If you have to ask............................................... .....!

I think their around £48ish,not bad if you blink whilst reading

http://www.topgear.com/drives/A4/XX/...sts/08/01.html

[Gibbo]

Originally Posted by Real Thing

Having owned a 335 d & i I think the running average for the i is a bit optimistic I achieved similar to you in the d (36 mpg) but only about 26 mpg in the 335i added to this that the residuals on a 1 year old Diesel would be about £750-£1000 more + as B4CJ pointed out the Diesel is Auto So I think we might be a little way from converting everyone back to petrol yet!
Interested thread Gibbo

I'm getting my spreadsheet on this now. Be back in 5 mins.

[Real Thing]

Originally Posted by Gibbo

Ian how much is a new B3? From memory these cars come loaded with options as std.

http://www.alpina-automobiles.com/co...php?scroll=yes

[Hotcoupe]

Cheers RT.
Did I read somewhere you have one coming soon?

[Gibbo]

Ok 12,000 miles on Hotcoupes Fuel costs 335i (26mpg) vs 335d (36mpg)

335i = 462 gallons £2,322
335d = 333 gallons £1,833 diff £488

335d with 10% extra fuel premium i.e 20% diff petrol / diesel £2,017 diff £305

The interesting thing is when I ordered the d I thought my saving would be £750 is a year but now they are only £500 ish.

and I guess the road tax will be about £100 more in the 'i'

[beemerbird]

Originally Posted by Gibbo

Ok 12,000 miles on Hotcoupes Fuel costs 335i (26mpg) vs 335d (36mpg)

335i = 462 gallons £2,322
335d = 333 gallons £1,833 diff £488

335d with 10% extra fuel premium i.e 20% diff petrol / diesel £2,017 diff £305

and I guess the road tax will be about £100 more in the 'i'

Less than a £1 per day difference then in fuel costs - interesting.

Oh and I'm sure you'd soon remember how to rev above 5000 rpm Gibbo.

[Hotcoupe]

Gibbo, you need to factor in the price difference of the cost of a diesel car against the petrol, don't forget the auto box in the 335i, I did.

Gibbo Ok
335d with 10% extra fuel premium i.e 20% diff petrol / diesel £2,017 diff £305

Second thoughts, ^ thats as near as damn it, you can also add the extra for the VED