[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by JohnnyT

Did the typical BMW owner not know this before getting into this kind of car?? If they didn't, they weren't paying attention. If you are on the low model end (like me), you still need to know you're in the same pond as the big boys. Like others have said, if you don't like it then find another pond.

So true, and a premium brand in Europe is just that, 'premium', particularly on home ground.

I've been around BMW for over 30-years and nothing really has changed, except the access to a BMW is far easier these days, but running costs are still there. 3-series used to be thought of as a 'small' BMW, but to the same standard as the 'real' cars. Running costs are similar.

BMW are also on the cutting edge, always have been. New technology, being green, leaders at cutting emissions and recycling all come at a cost premium as well. BMW are getting the awards for all this effort, so that stengthens the brand even more.

We buy into it, even if we think we can buck the reality, have a BMW at Ford prices.

HighlandPete

[John 070]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

BMW are also on the cutting edge, always have been. New technology, being green, leaders at cutting emissions and recycling all come at a cost premium as well.

What they did with the N54, and failed at in 2006, Nissan and Chevy do in 2010, and succeed. I wouldn't exactly call that leadership, seriously.

[Saintor]

Originally Posted by Juiced46

The difference from 1999 electical systems in cars to new vehicles is HUGE! You may not see it on the outside to the end user, but things have changed dramatically. Some cars may implement similar ways of doing it, but they are of no comparison on how they operate/designed from 10 years ago. Electrical systems have come a long long way in 10 years and they continue to improve on them to be more efficient, accomadate more accessories, implement the least amount of wiring with the addition of more modules etc.

How does this translate in additional value for the end user, I still don't know. My Accord 1999 had all the bells and whistles then (except for navigation and better integration of modern cars), everything was running with a top level of reliability, despite a fair amount of on-board computers. It still had its OEM Delco-supplied battery when I sold it at 6.5 years / 90000 miles. I'll say it again. 2003 Accord V6 240HP has the same or better energy yield than a 2011 328i 230HP, so again where's the additional value of that whole added complexity for the end user?

Also an FYI. @ my dealer we charge 1.2-1.5 hours (depends on model) to Replace a battery including registration. If you think that is a ripoff you are nuts. For comparison, we charge 1.0 hrs to read/clear faults only.

Yes I am nuts and stubborn. Two comments.

First, one abuse doesn't justify another, forget it.

Second, 1.5 hours (180$ by the way) is about 1 hour too many for a qualified mechanic. I did it a few times and you acknowledged that a typical battery replacement should be 30 minutes top. I can't believe that people will swallow that easily paying 1 extra hour at 120$/hr just to "register" that battery. There is a reason why people want to stay as much as possible away from the dealers.

Oh wait; "Thats the way it is" is supposed to be a straight answer. lol.

I still stick to my original point; BMW should relearn how to design stuff in a simpler way, with reliability as an higher priority when there is no difference for the end user. It can be done since others are doing it with success. This battery gimmick is an example and the electrical water pump is another, IMO; all of this just to save 1-2HP? Yeah sure. Can't wait my 1500$ bill to repair it. That's another story I guess, but the common point is design philosophy.

[ENINTY]

Originally Posted by JohnnyT

It's not a contradiction. And I don't blame BMW. I don't BLAME anyone as a matter of fact. BMW charges what they charge (the travesty) because they CAN. Their customer is us and we are in the same pool with all the even more prestigious 5 and 7 series owners as well that do not care about or question these "petty" amounts of money. It's considered an elite brand for elite people - with some actual models more elite than others - but still the same brand. Brands carry value and prestige.

Did the typical BMW owner not know this before getting into this kind of car?? If they didn't, they weren't paying attention. If you are on the low model end (like me), you still need to know you're in the same pond as the big boys. Like others have said, if you don't like it then find another pond.

Or learn to build your own boat.

I have the lowest of the low E90 325i optioned with the sport package, xenons, and BMW Assist (to get the bluetooth); its not that I couldn't afford more, it's just the car I wanted. And it is true your are playing with 7 series money at the dealer repair shop, but learn how to maintain and repair your car yourself, or at least get the Bently repair manual and learn about how it works and is repaired so you have an educated position when you go to the mechanic for repairs.

This has been a great thread BTW. Thanks guys, way better than TV.

[Saintor]

Originally Posted by ENINTY

but learn how to maintain and repair your car yourself, or at least get the Bently repair manual and learn about how it works and is repaired so you have an educated position when you go to the mechanic for repairs.

This has been a great thread BTW. Thanks guys, way better than TV.

And you assume that I don't have one? Actually I had a E90 Bentley repair manual in my car for quite a while!

Glad that we entertained somehow.

[JohnnyT]

A great idea for a new Discovery Channel "American Chopper"-type or "Deadliest Catch"-type show.....

...... the inner workings of a BMW Indy or dealershop shop with real detail on how they repair and install things on all makes, models, and vintages.

[Chriztofor]

I think BMW should make it more complicated. I bought my e90 used for $17,400. When I buy another BMW in 5 years maybe I can grab another one at $13,000 because of all the hype that our cars are "expensive", "complicated", and poor reliability. I might even get a 335 at that price. Fingers crossed.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by John 070

What they did with the N54, and failed at in 2006, Nissan and Chevy do in 2010, and succeed. I wouldn't exactly call that leadership, seriously.

But who took the risk, lead the field? Easy for the followers to improve and benefit from any manufacturer's deficiences. Of course BMW get things wrong, the pace of their development to keep ahead, is far too fast from my experience and knowledge of R&D.

I've spent a big part of my career in R&D and design, in the fall arrest industry. We pioneered new systems and lead the field with our range of product. To be honest it is far easier to follow. When we took on a distributor in Japan we could not believe their approach. They had every fall arrest product from around the world in their R&D facility, fully tested, assemblies dissected and every aspect of their form and function under the microscope, so to speak. Their approach... copy, but enhance and improve on any existing product. Speaks volumes on the Japanese approach to engineering.

Of course you can have better, more reliable product. Take Honda and their move into diesel engines for the family car. Wait until all the leaders (typically German) had developed the new technologies and then follow with a honed variant, to their high standards. Easier to make a benchmark design, when 'hindsight' is in the design brief.

Now when we see the Japanese moving forward at the same pace, we often find they also go through the learning curves as well. Nature of the beast from my point of view.

Pioneers, leaders, call them what you will, but they are the risk takers and can fall on their face, and often do. RFT technology, to me, is a case of under developed technology, put on the user far too soon. What did the lesser Gerrman companies do? Offer 'run on flat' as an option... Mercedes doesn't even want to use the RFT terminology for their version (30mph for 50miles), "MO extended" if ever you did. BMW had taken a bold move, did it pay off? Judge for yourselves. But there is still talk that every car will have RFT technology in very short order. BMW have really pioneered the way, aired their linen in public, given the industry the issues good and bad, for all to examine. Honda had a go as well and also takes the flack. Michelin who should know the tire industry better than most, failed with the PAX system. Bold moves, or foolish?

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Saintor

I'll say it again. 2003 Accord V6 240HP has the same or better energy yield than a 2011 328i 230HP, so again where's the additional value of that whole added complexity for the end user?

Is that really so, are they running to the same emission standard? Emission control costs efficiency and mpg. So a cleaner engine may well look less efficient, but lets check what these different setups are when compared, on a level playing field. I need to see some data before I make a call on this example.

HighlandPete

[ENINTY]

Originally Posted by Saintor

And you assume that I don't have one? Actually I had a E90 Bentley repair manual in my car for quite a while!

Glad that we entertained somehow.

Easy now, I wasn't assuming anything about anyone. It's just that people take cars for granted and don't take the time to understand them, or gain a minimal knowledge of how they work. An educated person is a better customer. The dealer is only taking advantage of ignorance.

And don't trust the Bentley too much; the two procedures I've followed so far, for the HVAC blower replacement and O2 sensor replacement were poorly written, and in case of the blower, completely wrong. But it is a good resource for explaining the systems of the car.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Saintor

....I still stick to my original point; BMW should relearn how to design stuff in a simpler way, with reliability as an higher priority when there is no difference for the end user. It can be done since others are doing it with success. This battery gimmick is an example and the electrical water pump is another, IMO; all of this just to save 1-2HP? Yeah sure. Can't wait my 1500$ bill to repair it. That's another story I guess, but the common point is design philosophy.

I don't think you get it. Europe is obsessed with emissions and CO2 levels. Anything and everything that can tweak those figures, HAS to be examined and tried.

I'll repeat it, Europe is obsessed with emission and CO2 levels. Now whether it is sensible in the big scheme of things, or not, is another debate, but car makers in Europe are the whipping boys. Targets, penalties, fines... drive the makers harder and faster than is probably decent, certainly not an easy path.

Look at the whole debate from that perspective... "we ain't going back to the older methods, in the foreseeable future".

HighlandPete

[Saintor]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Is that really so, are they running to the same emission standard? Emission control costs efficiency and mpg. So a cleaner engine may well look less efficient, but lets check what these different setups are when compared, on a level playing field. I need to see some data before I make a call on this example.

HighlandPete

If I got it correctly, the only requirement in Europe is to conform to Euro 5, and the ones I checked all do within a small margin in emissions (Infinity G37 328HP, 335i 300HP & Lexus IS-F 416HP).

I don't know about 2003 Honda V6.... although Honda always had a very good record for producing clean engines.... and they could do better with direct injection technology.

[Suckr4Straight6s]

Originally Posted by ENINTY

Sucker4StraightSixes, I'm now confused on this issue after re-reading your original post. So did the battery actually explode (i.e. the battery case rupture, spewing battery acid all over the battery well in the right rear fender), or did the pyrotechnic positive terminal (errantly) activate and break the power cables as it is supposed to do?

For the battery (case) to explode there would have to be serious venting problem and a build up of hydrogen gas to an unbelievable level to rupture the plastic case, or enough hydrogen gas present along with a spark to cause a small hydrogen explosion.

If the pyrotechnic positive terminal device exploded then it somehow malfunctioned, but it would have triggered the flashers, turned on the interior lights, and unlocked all the doors (if they were in the locked position).

Could you please clarify what exactly happened? Thanks.

Hi ENINTY, the battery itself did not explode. There was no battery acid spewing all over or anything like that. I guess I should have been a little more thorough in my description. I believe it was the power regulater that actuallyexploded whic is waht attaches to the smart pack.

[Suckr4Straight6s]

Originally Posted by bily

Between the battery, wires, and bumper you should talk to ur agent. Don't mention specifics on amps.

How hard did the cruiser hit ur car? Was it one of those battering rams?

Unfortunately I don't have comprehensive coverage. The little creases the officer left actully aren't that bad. I think if i buff the bumper really good they won't be that noticable. They'll still be there but you'd only notice them looking directly at those spots a foot away from the car. And no it wasn't a battering ram. It was more like a flat piece of metal used for pushing things.

[Saintor]

Originally Posted by Suckr4Straight6s

Unfortunately I don't have comprehensive coverage. The little creases the officer left actully aren't that bad. I think if i buff the bumper really good they won't be that noticable. They'll still be there but you'd only notice them looking directly at those spots a foot away from the car. And no it wasn't a battering ram. It was more like a flat piece of metal used for pushing things.

Bad battery installation (aside missing registration )?

[Suckr4Straight6s]

Anyways, sorry for the late response guys. Busy day yesterday.

According to the guys at the shop, the result of what happened was from an improper battery being installed and not programming the battery. Yes I do take blame for putting in the wrong battery. Yes, I was blowing some steam in regards to the profane language from the original post. Do i still thinks its bullcrap, yes.

Furthermore, I want to give props to Juiced46, Saintor, Highland Pete & *********. They've all been very insightful and have offered some different perspectives about this subject and again I think people should learn from my bad experience so that you guys don't run into this same problem.

Ok, so here is the list of all the parts that were damaged and replaced.

POWER REGULATOR - PART 61 14 6 971 370
CABLE GUIDE - PART 61 13 6 948 673
LOCKING NUT - PART 07 14 3 413 174
CONNECTION TERMINAL - PART 61 13 6 907 089
BMW BATTERY - PART 61 21 7 586 961
POSITIVE BATTERY CABLE - PART 61 12 9 217 031
CONNECTER - PART 61 13 8 353 746
CABLE - PART 61 12 9 130 178

Total cost including parts, labor and tax: $786.03

Hope this helps.

[Danny 330i]

Wow. That is serious! Thanks for your story. Goodluck

[Saintor]

improper battery being installed

Did you find your paperwork for the purchased battery in August (exact brand and model, capacity)?

[Suckr4Straight6s]

Originally Posted by Saintor

Did you find your paperwork for the purchased battery in August (exact brand and model, capacity)?

Its in a filing cabinet at my moms house. I'm going over there saturday so I'll be able to let you know then.

[AlexH]

Originally Posted by Saintor

Most BMW over here have not impressive fuel economy. 2011 328i 230HP 6-sp. running on premium have the same fuel economy than a 2003 Accord V6 240HP 5-sp. that runs on regular. Revised 2011 300HP N55 just caught up with 2010 328HP G37 fuel economy numbers . All I can add is that I fail to see the benefit of all this "German complexity" for the end consumers. Absolutely not saying that I am not loving my car.

+1. Sometimes keeping things simple can really save costs in the long run. Complexity does not always mean better or more efficient. For example, I don't know about the brakes in the BMW as I haven't had a chance to replace them and they are still covered under the maintenance. But my brother's Audi A6, he had to take it to a shop because pushing back the caliper was a big pain the ass. My Porsche Boxster, it took me 5 minutes to change the pads per axle. Yes, 5 freaking minutes because the design is simple and flawless. I could pry back the twin caliper with a screw driver and remove the pads by simply pushing out a pin. For you arrogant people out there who say that if you don't like it then don't buy a BMW, you are missing the point. I have had 3 BMWs already because I like the way they drive. It's a good driving machine that can be better if BMW would start to think and listen to its customers. Learn a thing or two from the Japanese with their electronics.

[ENINTY]

Originally Posted by Suckr4Straight6s

Hi ENINTY, the battery itself did not explode. There was no battery acid spewing all over or anything like that. I guess I should have been a little more thorough in my description. I believe it was the power regulater that actuallyexploded whic is waht attaches to the smart pack.

Whew! I was worried and had visions of a soon to be gaping hole in your right rear fender. Thanks for the clarification.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by AlexH

+1. Sometimes keeping things simple can really save costs in the long run. Complexity does not always mean better or more efficient. For example, I don't know about the brakes in the BMW as I haven't had a chance to replace them and they are still covered under the maintenance. But my brother's Audi A6, he had to take it to a shop because pushing back the caliper was a big pain the ass. My Porsche Boxster, it took me 5 minutes to change the pads per axle. Yes, 5 freaking minutes because the design is simple and flawless. I could pry back the twin caliper with a screw driver and remove the pads by simply pushing out a pin. For you arrogant people out there who say that if you don't like it then don't buy a BMW, you are missing the point. I have had 3 BMWs already because I like the way they drive. It's a good driving machine that can be better if BMW would start to think and listen to its customers. Learn a thing or two from the Japanese with their electronics.

When all is said and done, it appears we don't even have AGM batteries in our cars, if white = lead acid and black = AGM. So we sure go to a lot of trouble to have a lead acid battery in our trunk. I'm ok with it, $500 for a battery isn't what I prefer, and I realize BMW is an expensive car to operate. But I don't have to just go to the other extreme and claim I have some sort of awesome lead acid battery that is more complicated yet provides less CCA than a Wal Mart $79 94R battery. Oh yeah, BMW leads the pack or something.