[nyc4runnin]

So i was wondering ... do dealerships make more $$ off of people that do financing or leasing rather than people that buy the car in cash ? they earn all the interest and BS documenting fees, and provides a steady income for 2-5 years.

So would it be a good strategy to pretend you want to finance the car to make it easier to haggle - say down to $200 above invoice (or maybe even at invoice !) and then do the bait and switch tactic and say im just gonna pay cash for this low price ! :-)

separately whats the diff between dealer cost and dealer invoice ???

[Ali.K_BMW]

Originally Posted by nyc4runnin

So i was wondering ... do dealerships make more $$ off of people that do financing or leasing rather than people that buy the car in cash ? they earn all the interest and BS documenting fees, and provides a steady income for 2-5 years.

So would it be a good strategy to pretend you want to finance the car to make it easier to haggle - say down to $200 above invoice (or maybe even at invoice !) and then do the bait and switch tactic and say im just gonna pay cash for this low price ! :-)

separately whats the diff between dealer cost and dealer invoice ???

Answer is NO. It is the same selling price for finance, lease, cash. Now is it possible to make a few bucks on the back end from warranties, interest? Yes. And pretending to buy and switching does not work. Were not stupid

Invoice is what BMW says wholesale price is. As a dealer, we spend approximately 2-300 to get the car ready, mats and gas. so It's invoice plus a few hundred and that's our COST.

If you complain over 500$-1000$ over invoice on a bare bones deal, why are you buying a BMW? 500$ over invoice for a 3 series is understandable and doable. 500$ over for a M3 ? No. 500$ over for a 5 series? No


MF and residuals are available all over the net. as a CA, I can tell you this. If we sell a car 500$ or 1000$ over....we get a flat which ranges 100-250$ for a unit. Is that a great pay for several hours of work? NO. But we do it because it is our job.

Just my 2 cents. Don't bash me. I work in the field. You do not.

[I335]

Great explanation. Question - why does $500 over on an M3 or a 5 series not work? What would you consider to be reasonable for those models - say a decked out 2011 550?

[Ali.K_BMW]

Originally Posted by I335

Great explanation. Question - why does $500 over on an M3 or a 5 series not work? What would you consider to be reasonable for those models - say a decked out 2011 550?

The M3 and the new 5 series is high in demand, and when there is limited supply, it is harder for us to secure one. We have to go the extra mile to get a order in early or transfer from a dealer down south or out west. Not much the 5 series but for a new model that has sold over 25,000 in 3 months and the orders are backed up in most places. It is a new model and 1000-1500$ for a decked out 550i seems reasonable to a buyer dropping 80k. Now for the M3, yes there is alot of competition for these cars. You have to ask yourself, do you think its cool for the dealer to make the 500-1000 over invoice for all the time and effort a CA, like myself takes to get a M3 for delivery. I spend close to an hour making sure the M3 does not have a single swirl and is in pristine condition before I let the customer take it. I do not speak for all CA's but I understand someone dropping 60-80k for a BMW. The least one can do (customer) is let us hold the 500-1000$ over invoice. (keep in mind that sometimes we like to give gifts, or give a set of rubber mats on top of the M3 mats and that is subtracted from the gross held).

I am not saying we don't sell cars at invoice. Trust me I've sold my fair share of losers. It happens and we flow with the market as well.

[604 Dude]

This thread taught me quite a bit, thanks for posting. I feel that offering $500 over invoice is kind of rude, if I was a dealer I wouldn't be happy. Say on a $70k vehicle like the 3 series coupe with options, what would be decent offer over the invoice?

[Ali.K_BMW]

I would say 1000-1300$ would be decent.

[bavarianboar]

Originally Posted by trackfiend

The M3 and the new 5 series is high in demand, and when there is limited supply, it is harder for us to secure one. We have to go the extra mile to get a order in early or transfer from a dealer down south or out west. Not much the 5 series but for a new model that has sold over 25,000 in 3 months and the orders are backed up in most places. It is a new model and 1000-1500$ for a decked out 550i seems reasonable to a buyer dropping 80k. Now for the M3, yes there is alot of competition for these cars. You have to ask yourself, do you think its cool for the dealer to make the 500-1000 over invoice for all the time and effort a CA, like myself takes to get a M3 for delivery. I spend close to an hour making sure the M3 does not have a single swirl and is in pristine condition before I let the customer take it. I do not speak for all CA's but I understand someone dropping 60-80k for a BMW. The least one can do (customer) is let us hold the 500-1000$ over invoice. (keep in mind that sometimes we like to give gifts, or give a set of rubber mats on top of the M3 mats and that is subtracted from the gross held).

I am not saying we don't sell cars at invoice. Trust me I've sold my fair share of losers. It happens and we flow with the market as well.

I like your signature! Wonderful shots!

[604 Dude]

Originally Posted by trackfiend

I would say 1000-1300$ would be decent.

Excellent, I was planning on offering $1500, there is some karma justice in this world so I'd rather both te CA and I be happy with the transaction than save a $100, if you know what I mean.

[Ali.K_BMW]

Originally Posted by 604 Dude

Excellent, I was planning on offering $1500, there is some karma justice in this world so I'd rather both te CA and I be happy with the transaction than save a $100, if you know what I mean.

You could get away with 1000-1200 too. Not sure how it is in Canada

[Ali.K_BMW]

Originally Posted by bavarianboar

I like your signature! Wonderful shots!

Thank You

[MrSteak]

If you're picking a car off their lot, then it'd be tougher for all parties to let it go for invoice or that close. BUT.... if you're ordering a car, then $500 over invoice and call it a day. The car isn't part of their inventory, has nothing to do with how "in demand" it is.


I've bought my fair share of cars, and 99% of the time it's us (buyers) vs them (liars). Sure, every once in a while you'll run into a sales person who's up front with you, but most of the time they're just lying out of their ass trying to get as much money out of you as they can.... just as you're on the opposite end trying to spend as little. Plus, aside from the car's invoice, the options have invoice prices too.... so IF you got a loaded vehicle for invoice, and they charged you msrp per option, they'd still be making $500-$1,000 over invoice on the car. (Let alone the shit they charge for stuff like tints, body molding, anything painted, etc...)


To the OP... if you're buying a BMW, I'd definitely suggest Euro Delivery. It's below US invoice, you get to drive your car on the Autobahn and it's an amazing experience. Plus, the money you save on the discount is usually more than enough to go on the whole trip itself. So why would you pay $1,500 OVER invoice to some guy you don't know, when you can get a custom BMW for almost $3,000 less than you would have paid, including a trip to Germany?

[Ali.K_BMW]

Originally Posted by MrSteak

If you're picking a car off their lot, then it'd be tougher for all parties to let it go for invoice or that close. BUT.... if you're ordering a car, then $500 over invoice and call it a day. The car isn't part of their inventory, has nothing to do with how "in demand" it is.


I've bought my fair share of cars, and 99% of the time it's us (buyers) vs them (liars). Sure, every once in a while you'll run into a sales person who's up front with you, but most of the time they're just lying out of their ass trying to get as much money out of you as they can.... just as you're on the opposite end trying to spend as little. Plus, aside from the car's invoice, the options have invoice prices too.... so IF you got a loaded vehicle for invoice, and they charged you msrp per option, they'd still be making $500-$1,000 over invoice on the car. (Let alone the shit they charge for stuff like tints, body molding, anything painted, etc...)


To the OP... if you're buying a BMW, I'd definitely suggest Euro Delivery. It's below US invoice, you get to drive your car on the Autobahn and it's an amazing experience. Plus, the money you save on the discount is usually more than enough to go on the whole trip itself. So why would you pay $1,500 OVER invoice to some guy you don't know, when you can get a custom BMW for almost $3,000 less than you would have paid, including a trip to Germany?

Huge negative. The options are included in the final MSRP. The invoice from the final MSRP is the invoice. There is no hidden markup on options.

[MrSteak]

Originally Posted by trackfiend

Huge negative. The options are included in the final MSRP. The invoice from the final MSRP is the invoice. There is no hidden markup on options.

Wow... you're such a "dealer".

Yeah... MAYBE the options are included in the final MSRP of the cars you have sitting on your lot, which are all marked up anyways. But the options just like the car itself has an invoice price and a suggested retail as well. Some options are only marked up a few bucks, but some are even more, and it adds up.


For example... 2011 335i coupe:
M sport Package = MSRP: $3,000 Invoice: $2,730 ($270)
Premium Package = MSRP: $2,650 Invoice: $2,410 ($240)
Convenience Package = MSRP: $1,500 Invoice:$1,365 ($135)

So with only those 3 packages, that's already $645 in options markup.

[Outlaw 06]

Originally Posted by nyc4runnin

So i was wondering ... do dealerships make more $$ off of people that do financing or leasing rather than people that buy the car in cash ? they earn all the interest and BS documenting fees, and provides a steady income for 2-5 years.

So would it be a good strategy to pretend you want to finance the car to make it easier to haggle - say down to $200 above invoice (or maybe even at invoice !) and then do the bait and switch tactic and say im just gonna pay cash for this low price ! :-)

separately whats the diff between dealer cost and dealer invoice ???

Know the car’s invoice cost minus any incentives (factory to customer and/or factory to dealer if applicable). This is about the best estimate of dealer cost, even though there are unpublished dealer (volume) incentives too. Dealers need to make a fair profit too. Then calculate a fair (reasonable) price you’re willing to pay, shop around, and be patient. There’s plenty of competition in the car business, so use that to your advantage when shopping around. If a particular dealership won’t agree to a fair price on a car, then simply find another dealership that will. I’d also suggest purchasing a new car near the end of the month and/or quarter, when dealers are sometimes willing to move a few extra cars to get their sales volume up.

[Ali.K_BMW]

Originally Posted by MrSteak

Wow... you're such a "dealer".

Yeah... MAYBE the options are included in the final MSRP of the cars you have sitting on your lot, which are all marked up anyways. But the options just like the car itself has an invoice price and a suggested retail as well. Some options are only marked up a few bucks, but some are even more, and it adds up.


For example... 2011 335i coupe:
M sport Package = MSRP: $3,000 Invoice: $2,730 ($270)
Premium Package = MSRP: $2,650 Invoice: $2,410 ($240)
Convenience Package = MSRP: $1,500 Invoice:$1,365 ($135)

So with only those 3 packages, that's already $645 in options markup.

typical "Customer". When a car is built plus all options, the MSRP which includes all the options will reflect the invoice price. It all adds up together.

[MrSteak]

Originally Posted by trackfiend

typical "Customer". When a car is built plus all options, the MSRP which includes all the options will reflect the invoice price. It all adds up together.

Well, I've ordered 2 cars already E92 ED, and an E90 here. Both priced out with accordingly with invoice prices (vehicle & options), then I added $500-700 above the invoice figure. I found a salesperson willing to deal for a quick sale and was done. I knew the numbers, and he didn't waste his time lying about markups and costs. It's just like asshole dealers who try to charge stuff like maco, training fees, and inventory fees on European Delivery cars.



Don't get me wrong... if I were a salesperson I'd be out to make money too. But on here, in a community setting I'd still be honest about pricing and all the bullshit that MOST of these dealers try to pull.

[Ali.K_BMW]

Originally Posted by MrSteak

Well, I've ordered 2 cars already E92 ED, and an E90 here. Both priced out with accordingly with invoice prices (vehicle & options), then I added $500-700 above the invoice figure. I found a salesperson willing to deal for a quick sale and was done. I knew the numbers, and he didn't waste his time lying about markups and costs. It's just like asshole dealers who try to charge stuff like maco, training fees, and inventory fees on European Delivery cars.



Don't get me wrong... if I were a salesperson I'd be out to make money too. But on here, in a community setting I'd still be honest about pricing and all the bullshit that MOST of these dealers try to pull.

you've got me all wrong. My sales are done in 10 minutes. I show the vehicle cost and get a reasonable offer then the deal is done. Most "salespeople" are nonsense, I on the other hand break through BS and get it done. Customers don't pay maco nor training fees. The dealer does. If I can, I am going to post a car invoice on here and show you and everyone on here how its done.

[MrSteak]

Originally Posted by trackfiend

you've got me all wrong. My sales are done in 10 minutes. I show the vehicle cost and get a reasonable offer then the deal is done. Most "salespeople" are nonsense, I on the other hand break through BS and get it done. Customers don't pay maco nor training fees. The dealer does. If I can, I am going to post a car invoice on here and show you and everyone on here how its done.

I'm not saying you're one of the bad ones. I've bought my 2 BMW's, gone through it all for Euro delivery, and a US order. My ED deal was amazing for what I paid for it, so I know the numbers. But I've dealt with my fair share of sales people who give themselves the bad name.


Just posting in here so the OP has as much info as possible like I did when I bought my 335i. After all was said and done... I could have easily paid more over invoice than I did, but I'd much rather have that extra $500-$1,000 in my pocket while I was in Europe than my dealer.

[cb1111]

Originally Posted by MrSteak

Wow... you're such a "dealer".

Yeah... MAYBE the options are included in the final MSRP of the cars you have sitting on your lot, which are all marked up anyways. But the options just like the car itself has an invoice price and a suggested retail as well. Some options are only marked up a few bucks, but some are even more, and it adds up.


For example... 2011 335i coupe:
M sport Package = MSRP: $3,000 Invoice: $2,730 ($270)
Premium Package = MSRP: $2,650 Invoice: $2,410 ($240)
Convenience Package = MSRP: $1,500 Invoice:$1,365 ($135)

So with only those 3 packages, that's already $645 in options markup.

WTF are you talking about?

Theinvoice price is not only the invoice on the base price, but the invoice of the entire vehicle.

The invoice on a car will typically show MSRP, Invoice (of the whole car) plus regional charges (floorplan, advertising etc)

Invoice is invoice and MSRP is MSRP. You're the kind of customer that dealers hate because you are clueless and the kind that dealers love (because you are clueless) since they can make a killing on you AND make you feel like you've won.

[Ali.K_BMW]

Originally Posted by cb1111

WTF are you talking about?

Theinvoice price is not only the invoice on the base price, but the invoice of the entire vehicle.

The invoice on a car will typically show MSRP, Invoice (of the whole car) plus regional charges (floorplan, advertising etc)

Invoice is invoice and MSRP is MSRP. You're the kind of customer that dealers hate because you are clueless and the kind that dealers love (because you are clueless) since they can make a killing on you AND make you feel like you've won.

The "customer" is always right........

[MrSteak]

Originally Posted by trackfiend

The "customer" is always right........

Originally Posted by cb1111

WTF are you talking about?

Theinvoice price is not only the invoice on the base price, but the invoice of the entire vehicle.

The invoice on a car will typically show MSRP, Invoice (of the whole car) plus regional charges (floorplan, advertising etc)

Invoice is invoice and MSRP is MSRP. You're the kind of customer that dealers hate because you are clueless and the kind that dealers love (because you are clueless) since they can make a killing on you AND make you feel like you've won.

Wow.... even more bullshit.


If you're another salesperson then just price out a car for the OP. He was asking about pricing a car at or $200 above invoice ( Confidential BMW Wholesale Pricing.)

[Ali.K_BMW]

Originally Posted by MrSteak

Wow.... even more bullshit.


If you're another salesperson then just price out a car for the OP. He was asking about pricing a car at or $200 above invoice ( Confidential BMW Wholesale Pricing.)

I would give him what he wants. But since I am not a sponsor (yet) I cannot sell nor advertise a price. I am giving general information regarding car sales and pricing. I am a CA, you are not. If you cannot believe me when I say what is invoice or not, please refrain from giving the OP false information as this may lead him to appear somewhat foolish in front of a CA who would take advantage of him.

To the OP, if you need GENERAL help or guidance, feel free to ask me. I'll be more than happy to help you.