[themyst]

FWIW, Giac Stage 2 is good for about 17psi +/- (load index based) so I don't believe theres any "restriction" on flash tuning in regards to power limits.

[Shellacked135i]

^ If they surpassed 17 psi then that is news to me.... I havnt seen anyone boast about that. But they arent making no 20 + psi yet. The subject is moot however, I dont see any quick cars out flash tunes as of today.

Best Ive seen out of giac is the 16.5ish range im confident that is still true.

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

Id obviously prefer to hear it from GIAC or Cobb stating that they cant take the car over those levels, but i will take your word for it. Key phrase being "cant do it right now". I belive they will, just like they always have.

I also never said that procede was a bad tune, or that it didnt make power or have advantages. In fact, in my first post, i stated that i personally enjoyed the driving experience when i had my procede in my car.

Anyone can do anything with time and money. How long you want to wait?
This car has been out since late 2006, its 2011, and Cobb just got into the game, what does that say?

Trust me, I come from a world of stand-alone tuning; Ive tuned dozens of cars, not just my own. As of today, Flash isnt the answer (on this specific car), tomorrow, who knows.

Do what makes you happy. There is is plenty of information about giac, and plenty of members to ask that will be more then happy to tell you whats going on with it.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Shellacked135i

Anyone can do anything with time and money. How long you want to wait?
This car has been out since late 2006, its 2011, and Cobb just got into the game, what does that say?

Trust me, I come from a world of stand-alone tuning; Ive tuned dozens of cars, not just my own. As of today, Flash isnt the answer (on this specific car), tomorrow, who knows.

Do what makes you happy. There is is plenty of information about giac, and plenty of members to ask that will be more then happy to tell you whats going on with it.

I fully recognize that you, and many others, have much more tuning expertise than I. No doubt. That is far from what my real world job is.

As far as cobb's involvement and timeline, id rather not assume when they started/how long it took for them to get the tune ready.

Unless I missed it which is entirely possible, there was no mention of when Cobb began the process of developing a tune for the n54.

[Shellacked135i]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

I fully recognize that you, and many others, have much more tuning expertise than I. No doubt. That is far from what my real world job is.

As far as cobb's involvement and timeline, id rather not assume when they started/how long it took for them to get the tune ready.

Unless I missed it which is entirely possible, there was no mention of when Cobb began the process of developing a tune for the n54.

You definetley missed one of there first threads where they mentioned that the cost of the Cobb was directly related to the amount of time it took to develop. Their wording was something along the lines of "It took us about 6X longer to develop the cobb for this platform then others". They also mentioned that cracking the uncrackable GT-R was a joke in comparison to this platform.

The information is out there. I'm outa here. Good night

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

I find it odd that the bmw market is larger than the subie and mitsu combined, but i suppose you would know better than i.

Manufacturer sales reports will reveal that Mitsubishi sells a couple hundred Evos a month if they are lucky. Subaru sells more STIs/WRX. But they are still considered low market niche cars. BMW 335 is a truly high volume mass production vehicle. I'd guess by a factor of 10.

As far as the ecu goes, you will have to forgive me if i am not convinced. That answer is similar to what i have seen in other posts, a lot of talk, but no real actual hard data.

For example, "person x brought his car in to this dealership and had this tune. He removed the tune, and it was still diagnosed by the dealer using x technicque pulling x parameters and his warranty was voided"

Yes. Many many Dinan tuned cars were flagged by dealerships being issued a request by BMW AG to test for evap readiness. Something that the Euro-based DME software (that the original Dinan flash was based upon) didn't provide. And I know of 2 customers who were already flagged at East Bay BMW (one of the highest volume BMW dealership in America) for running another reflash despite being flashed back to stock. They took it in stride, changed tunes and just modded the hell out of their car. My job isn't to be the spokesperson for those who run into warranty trouble. In fact, it's quite the opposite because it's not an area I like to get involved with. But BMW is quite aware of the tunes that we (and everyone else) offers. And I know for a fact they are/have actively taken it upon themselves to find a way to trace them.

For me, until i see examples like ^^^^^^^^^^ the rest is just talk.

And finally to your last point, fair enough, best of luck to you guys. I am of the opinion that more is better, but to me, it seems like many here are just not facing up to the inevitable fact that just like other platforms, the flash tune will eventually succeed. I have not seen enough evidence to the contrary as to why it cant be as effective as it has shown to be on platforms ranging from a mazdaspeed3 to an evox to a gtr. IMO bmw is next.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and each opinion is just as valid as the next. My opinion is that there has never been a Procede available for the the MS3, EvoX or GTR. Focusing on ONE market has allowed us to make it what it is today for the BMW.

Shiv

[ErvGotti]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

As i understand it, only the most heavily modded cars are using standalone. The vast vast majority of turbo upgrades (along with fuel system mods) are done using management from flashed ecu's

The BMW update issue appears to only be a concern if you are constantly in the dealership getting some sort of software update. If this isnt the case, why would BMW updated DME files have anything to do with the file on your ECU currently?

Yes that is why piggys have gotten the job done, No one as of yet has been able to heavily mod their car compared to other platforms. Most other platforms that use stand alone's are the one's that go from NA to FI. Guess I should have included that in my first post. With upgrading turbo'ed cars you can get away with a flash to a certain extent, once you go fully moded and I mean fully modded including internals you basically have to rewrite the ECU if not using a Stand alone. And that is alot of work.

We've been lucky enough to have a great platform to hit 400WHP without much mod's and that's enough for most people.

As for the update it really isn't that big of a deal. It looks like BMW comes out with an update at least once a year that affects a flash tune. Like you said if you dont bring your car in anymore or dont want the update or you dont mind waiting for the reflash then it's no big deal.

[atlharry]

Originally Posted by quattrosaint

Ah thanks. Looks like I will be joining the tuned community next week.

[itsbrokeagain]

Originally Posted by maxnix

Well, you are going to be eating some BS so I hope you like it!

The first person in the US to crack the GTR ECU told me BMW was far ahead in sophistication of everyone else. Subaru, Mazda and Mitsubishi are child's play in comparison.

Happy now?

+1, If its one thing the Germans are good at, its overcomplicating and encrypting the shit out of things. BMW has dabbled with turbos while most of the Japanese market was playing with eco cars and trucks. Same goes with Porsche...in 75 when they released the turbo, its 250hp stunned the market and opened a can of whoop ass on anything Italian. The Asian market only really hit the ground in the late 80s/early 90s and really started to kick ass with the likes of the GTR, the 3000GT, Supra, Rx-7 and such. Sure BMW had resorted to its NA status but that didnt mean they couldnt whip up a turbo car and not know what they were doing.

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

By comparison, current n54 flashes can't even control boost properly over a normal range of hardware variance. Nor does it seem that they been able to properly isolate basic PID control logic. And it was only until recently were they even able to run more than 14psi.

Shiv

You can't expect us to take this seriously?! Shiv, have you been talking to Mike/Terry recently?

[**335i**]

Originally Posted by Shellacked135i

Yes you need usb to serial and drivers to connect to PROcede....

little OT bought this cable no drivers nothing i think i just put it into procede and laptop and it will work what sepcial drivers u guys talk http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=21

[BQTuning]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

You can't expect us to take this seriously?! Shiv, have you been talking to Mike/Terry recently?

+1 on that.....I kinda dont undestand why Shiv would say this, but with given thought, on the assumption, if what he says is accurate then that would explain why Dinan came out with exclusive Mods to go with their software, which is unlike other flash tuners. If this is the case then Dinan is exempt from his statement as their Stage 3 software is desgined to exclusively work with Dinan Mods thus increasing Boost affectively to work properly with its own hardware.

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by maxnix

Well, you are going to be eating some BS so I hope you like it!

The first person in the US to crack the GTR ECU told me BMW was far ahead in sophistication of everyone else. Subaru, Mazda and Mitsubishi are child's play in comparison.

Happy now?

i think we look cars like dating ... just cuz u had a live one that said yes, doesnt mean all the other ones will too...

(non-sexist version)

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

You can't expect us to take this seriously?! Shiv, have you been talking to Mike/Terry recently?

My statement is true. If you test 5 different n54 cars with the same exact modifications and same exact static tune, they will all drive differently. This is a reflection on hardware variance, not the tune. Some will have reasonable boost control. While others will exhibit poor boost control. And the rest in the middle. This isn't an unsupported statement. It's just something that you don't want to hear. But it's 100% true nonetheless.

[bulldog_yyc]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

My statement is true. If you test 5 different n54 cars with the same exact modifications and same exact static tune, they will all drive differently. This is a reflection on hardware variance, not the tune. Some will have reasonable boost control. While others will exhibit poor boost control. And the rest in the middle. This isn't an unsupported statement. It's just something that you don't want to hear. But it's 100% true nonetheless.

makes sense to me considering the boost control is implemented by a mechanical wastegate, which will vary in tolerance due to design and use

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

My statement is true. If you test 5 different n54 cars with the same exact modifications and same exact static tune, they will all drive differently. This is a reflection on hardware variance, not the tune. Some will have reasonable boost control. While others will exhibit poor boost control. And the rest in the middle. This isn't an unsupported statement. It's just something that you don't want to hear. But it's 100% true nonetheless.

Shiv,

I understand what your point is. It is true that no two cars are the same from the hardware standpoint for many reasons. This is the reason why the ECUs are constantly adapting to condition changes whether they are weather or hardware induced.

All ECU's are built to handle such variations to a certain limit. If there is a hardware variance which is above those variance limits, then clearly this is a hardware failure that should be and actually is addressed by maintenance and warranty. This is the reason why BMW has two different type of wastegate actuators.

I respect the fact that procede is able to overcome the problematic wastegate actuators to some extent, but this is no basis for claiming ECU's are incapable.

Simply put, as soon as a hardware component goes out of recommended spec and tolerances, then it has to be replaced. You can't expect the ECU to compensate for faulty hardware.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Shiv,

I understand what your point is. It is true that no two cars are the same from the hardware standpoint for many reasons. This is the reason why the ECUs are constantly adapting to condition changes whether they are weather or hardware induced.

All ECU's are built to handle such variations to a certain limit. If there is a hardware variance which is above those variance limits, then clearly this is a hardware failure that should be and actually is addressed by maintenance and warranty. This is the reason why BMW has two different type of wastegate actuators.

I respect the fact that procede is able to overcome the problematic wastegate actuators to some extent, but this is no basis for claiming ECU's are incapable.

Simply put, as soon as a hardware component goes out of recommended spec and tolerances, then it has to be replaced. You can't expect the ECU to compensate for faulty hardware.

I feel that you are arguing about something that you have not seen/measured yourself. This being the case, I don't think we need to debate this any further.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Shiv,

I understand what your point is. It is true that no two cars are the same from the hardware standpoint for many reasons. This is the reason why the ECUs are constantly adapting to condition changes whether they are weather or hardware induced.

All ECU's are built to handle such variations to a certain limit. If there is a hardware variance which is above those variance limits, then clearly this is a hardware failure that should be and actually is addressed by maintenance and warranty. This is the reason why BMW has two different type of wastegate actuators.

I respect the fact that procede is able to overcome the problematic wastegate actuators to some extent, but this is no basis for claiming ECU's are incapable.

Simply put, as soon as a hardware component goes out of recommended spec and tolerances, then it has to be replaced. You can't expect the ECU to compensate for faulty hardware.

You just agreed with Shiv's point, so why do you continue to argue? Just stop.

[Shellacked135i]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Shiv,

I understand what your point is. It is true that no two cars are the same from the hardware standpoint for many reasons. This is the reason why the ECUs are constantly adapting to condition changes whether they are weather or hardware induced.

All ECU's are built to handle such variations to a certain limit. If there is a hardware variance which is above those variance limits, then clearly this is a hardware failure that should be and actually is addressed by maintenance and warranty. This is the reason why BMW has two different type of wastegate actuators.

I respect the fact that procede is able to overcome the problematic wastegate actuators to some extent, but this is no basis for claiming ECU's are incapable.

Simply put, as soon as a hardware component goes out of recommended spec and tolerances, then it has to be replaced. You can't expect the ECU to compensate for faulty hardware.

This sounds like your only excuse that in essence agrees flashes need to work on controlling boost better. If other tunes can control it, there is clearly an available solution despite any hardware variances car to car. Period.

[vasillalov]

Guys,

I guess I did not make myself clear about what I meant to say:

Basically, every single component is built to a certain specification and it has a specific tolerance. Whether this is mechanical or electronic, all components are built with such tolerances. Complicated equipment like engines are simply an assembly of such components. For the engines to function properly, all components must function within their designed specifications and tolerances. Electronics are used to overcome mechanical variations and increase precision.

The point I am trying to make here is that ECU's are not static. They constantly adjust and try compensate for the different conditions and that includes minor hardware deviations which are still considered to be "within specs". I don't see a reason why you would not agree with that.

As soon as a component goes outside of factory specifications and tolerances, it will cause a problem further down the line. You can't obviously expect an electronic component to be able to compensate completely for hardware failure, do you? If that was the case, then the all-mightly PROcede should be giving you full 18 psi of boost with the wastegates stuck in full OPEN position. (overly exagerating here, obviously.)

My previous statement was not here to argue about whether Procede is better than flash tuning when it comes to different hardware variations. My statement was addressed more towards Shiv's claim that ECU flash tunes are not able to compensate for hardware variations, which is simply not true for the case where the variations are "WITHIN FACTORY SPECS"!

Do you get it now?

[Shellacked135i]

With your logic it sounds like your are trying to say that any flash tune that is not hitting boost targets with preciscion is because of a "faulty hardware/out of spec hardware".
Faulty hardware is one thing, but I doubt every single flash owner with a boost control overshoot has broken hardware. The more obvious issue is the stock hardware was not intended to control higher boost applications, with precision.
Shiv pointed out that the procede was able to combat this flaw and that flashes havnt. A lot of people shoot down Shiv for pointing out facts, and they are the truth. I dont really see anything he said to be that quite off.

[Clap135]

The bullshit is so deep in this thread that it will have to wait till I get home.

[Shellacked135i]

Originally Posted by Clap135

The bullshit is so deep in this thread that it will have to wait till I get home.