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08-29-2013, 10:26 AM | #23 | |
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08-29-2013, 11:01 AM | #24 | |
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My bent on it is that nearly every democratic state in the so called developed world has went through a civil war or revolution of it's own at some point. There is cruelty and spilt blood in every countries history and despite the hypocrisy of what we or our allies have done in the past we can not stand by and ignore injustice (and this applies on all fronts,not just Syria). However, we should not be drawn in to other peoples conflicts as combatants, our role and that of the rest of the worlds should be as referees....... hold on, have I just described what the UN is supposed to be doing. PS. my cousin works for the UN and he's a complete fanny so i have no faith.
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08-29-2013, 01:09 PM | #25 |
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There have been claims that Assad used weapons against his opponents. I've also seen reports that the rebels also used chemical weapons. Which reports are accurate? I don't know, but I don't think it matters either. Chemical weapons were used. Period.
Leave Syria to Its Own Devices Despots, tyrants and regimes that massacre their own people are as despicable as it gets, IMO. However, when that is the action of a sovereign government within it's own country. Nobody fought WWII simply because Hitler was gassing German Jews or because he'd initiated a pogrom against his political and ideological opponents. Nobody is invading North Korea because that clown running the place has nuclear weapons. Nobody invaded China over the Tienanmen Square incident. Right, wrong or something in between, I don't feel there's a good case for any other country to play the knight in shining armor, regardless of the moral imperative. For the US or anyone else to do so is little more than being the bully on the block. The fact is that so long as there is no evidence that Syria is committing these heinous acts against its own people, the rest of the world needs to leave them alone. This is a nation we are talking about, not your evil neighbor and his children he's abusing. Beyond the fact that we are talking about actions of a sovereign government, I don't see much benefit to bothering to do anything about it. What's the end state if the US or UK levels Syria? It's hardly going to be that rogue states and rogue organizations won't be able to fabricate more of them if they want to do so. Are the Western Powers going to embark on yet another episode of nation building? Are we going to spend resources we don't have to do so and bring ourselves to economic ruin, opening the door for China's ascendancy? Iraq was proof enough for me that even small wars with small countries are disproportionately expensive in light of what comes from them. Throughout recorded history, the perceived transgressions of one group against others have been redressed by fighting fire with fire. That approach to problem solving can hardly be said to work beyond achieving some single, myopic objective, and it has never resulted in a win/win situation for the parties involved. It has been said that the height of stupidity is to keep doing the same thing and expecting different results. Fighting aggression with aggression cannot be but exactly that. The Painful Reality of Chemical Weapons Chemical weapons use, of course, presents a dilemma insofar as one has to consider whether when that country using/possessing them is done annihilating it's own people, will it do so outside it's country? One might even claim concern that that country might sell such weapons to country-less terrorists? To that, I'd respond, well, so what if they do? Sadly, unlike nuclear weapons, chemical weapons are easy to make (http://science.howstuffworks.com/biochem-war3.htm) and easy enough to transport. As for deploying them, let's just say that they are far easier to use than an airplane as a guided HE missile. Anyone having a masters in chemistry has the know-how to make very deadly chemical weapons. The leaders of every nation, upon learning of a pending chemical attack (if they in fact know about it before it happens), are hardly going to tell their citizenry about it before it happens. They won't want to compromise their sources of information and they won't want to cause panic among the general public. Chemical weapons kill people, but leave the infrastructure in place. Accordingly, there is a presumption that after such an attack, the area can be cleaned up and business will resume as before with new people performing the jobs. The dirty truth is that regular folks like us are just f*cked. No government in the world can constrain every chemist on the planet and censor all the public knowledge regarding the nature of the already developed chemical compounds. So, sure, the US, other countries could bomb the be-jesus/be-allah out of Syria, and then invade the place to make a clean sweep and remove/destroy Syria's chemical weapons, but that's a very narrowly focused approach to a broad problem. As such, it will do little more than incite additional ire among the enemies of any such "savior" nations. Obama's Options As for where Obama is taking the Syria issue, I cannot help but think he's barking up the wrong tree portending military action. Better than he just publicly say that his "line in the sand" comments some weeks back was just the wrong thing to say and were but an impassioned sentiment based on his sense of moral rectitude. It's unfortunate Obama made that strategically constraining statement, but it is what it is now. Better to just admit the mistake and buy some room to maneuver. Until he does that, he doesn't really have options. I wonder, is Obama any good at the games chess or go? Before this, I would have thought him fair at those games. Now, I'm not so sure. I've seen Obama on various news shows and the body language I see tells me he's either lying outright or really just doesn't believe what it is he's saying. The man is the leader of the US. He's in his second term; he can't run again. Sh*t, get over it and lead. Leadership is about taking folks in a direction that is the best direction and in their long and short term interests. Sometimes it means acting, but it can also mean knowing when not to act.
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08-29-2013, 01:43 PM | #26 | ||||
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Well, if any nation wants to keep an eye on what's going on in Syria, or insert their own clandestine observers/combatants into the country, the Mediterranean Sea is the best place from which to do it fi one isn't satisfied with what one's satellites can show. One thing's unmistakable: nobody mediates from an anti-submarine ship. Hell, you don't even need a ship if all you want to do is mediate. I don't know what Russia is up to, but I do know they are keen to re-establish themselves as a world leader, so to that end, they have to at least be geographically present. More likely is that is that Russia's move is classic gunboat diplomacy.
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08-29-2013, 03:34 PM | #27 | |
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08-29-2013, 04:07 PM | #28 |
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What's more disturbing to me, and I'm not disagreeing with you, is that neither side of the Syrian conflict is one that has positive feelings about the U.S. The way I perceive that quagmire, the folks on either side would welcome US/UK help in defeating the other side, but once the conflict ends, the winning side would just as soon slit our throat, ever the best that "bites the hand that feeds it," as it were.
In my post preceding the one you quoted and responded to, I think I stated how damnable I find gassing one's own citizens, but when one enemy gases another enemy, I'm perfectly happy to let them have at it undisturbed by me. When my only choice is between two evils, I simply don't choose. The lesser of two evils is still evil.
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08-29-2013, 08:03 PM | #29 |
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Which country has murdered the most civilians in the past 10-20 years, using bombs and chemical weapons?
Which country is the only one to actually use a nuclear bomb? Which country has invaded the most countries out of every other country? The International Criminal Court has over 120 member countries. Guess if the US is a member? So much propaganda is used to defend all of this. If that isn't terrorism then i don't know what is. P.S Glad and suprised that we aren't going to get involved this time. |
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08-29-2013, 08:42 PM | #30 | |
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08-29-2013, 09:36 PM | #31 | |
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08-29-2013, 11:10 PM | #33 | |
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Which country has murdered the most civilians in the past 10-20 years, using bombs and chemical weapons? I suspect it's the US. That's one of the collateral affects of winning the battles you choose to fight.Which country has invaded the most countries out of every other country? Great Britain - there are only 22 countries on the planet Britain hasn't invaded.The International Criminal Court has over 120 member countries. Guess if the US is a member? It is comical that you even mentioned the ICC. LMAO!!! If ever there were an international organization that is as useless as tits on a bull, the ICC is one. The Sea Shepherds are more effective fighting the Japanese whaling vessels.All the best.
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08-30-2013, 05:55 AM | #34 |
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08-30-2013, 06:50 AM | #35 | |
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Last edited by Cyprio; 08-30-2013 at 07:18 AM.. |
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08-30-2013, 08:46 AM | #36 | |
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08-30-2013, 09:51 AM | #37 | |
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To be honest we can all talk about this for hours and hours but at the end of the day no one really knows whats happening out there, who the real tyrants are. We can just make opinions on what we've read/researched. I just hope no one bases their research on the mainstream media (not saying you do). Tony20009: you've made my head hurt so i'll stop here lol. You obviously know quite a bit. But saying civilian deaths are collateral is the modern way of defending the deaths. We/USA should fight the army/governments properly. If you can't be accurate enough then don't. It seems civilian lives are way down the priority scale. Which has enabled some troops to say "Hey look at those brown people wearing hats, lets bomb 'em!". Not saying every troop has this mentality, but there are documented cases of this happening. Also cases of rape, murders and sexual torture which i'm sure everyone's heard about. This is because like i said deaths of civilians are just "collateral". It's also a clever way to divide and conquer (making muslims in that region fear/hate the US to create hatred towards them, then saying hey look these muslims hate us they are terrorists!). Also about the ICC, yes i agree its a shamble. My point was really they could at least make a token gesture. Imagine the shame if a top US official got an arrrest warrant. Even though they can't enforce it it would still send out a message. It would let doubters know that there is something wrong about that person. Its not about prosecuting them, which would be great, but more about sending out a message and making people aware. Also since when has the US given a shit about their constitution? Mass surveillance and data goes on as has been confirmed recently which surely violates their constitution? I'm sure there's loads of other examples. Holding people without trial? At the end of the day if the Government wants to do something, they will do it and make it sound legit. |
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08-30-2013, 03:44 PM | #38 |
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I think it's fair to say that we are not privy to all the facts in Syria. There is a huge amount of conclusive intelligence to say that the pro-assad forces used chemical weapons.
I care about this, but why not let France sort it out - they are campaigning for action. France has the history with Syria (control from 1920-1946). They also don't have the negative UK/US connotations and may be more widely supported by other Middle East nations.
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08-30-2013, 06:32 PM | #39 | |
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08-30-2013, 07:57 PM | #40 | |
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If Assad did do it then of course i'd agree, but what i would agree more with and i think we should all do, is when ANY country breaks international law, that country should be sorted out. Its not really ethical if the US/Israel/UK can use chemical weapons without any consequences, but other countries gets fucked when they are suspected of doing so. Surely thats a reasonable opinion? I find it shocking that people still have faith and trust in the US/UK Governments and mainstream media in this day and age. At least there is a much lower approval rating among US citizens to go to war this time (9% ish from a source) than the 70% ish when it was Iraq. Maybe more people are doubting the intentions. |
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08-31-2013, 01:52 AM | #41 |
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Leaders are there to make tough decisions, everyone has an opinion but most people in the general public (my self included) don't have guts to make decisions that will lead people to die..
Regardless of what you think of the US their actions are no where near as direct or involved as what the British Empire did, infact around most of Asia the British are seen as war mongers far more than the US purely because of the Empire. The British Museum is still full of stuff that was stolen from every corner of the world and yet I see no effort by the UK government to give any of the stolen artefacts back to the counties of origin. But you could argue without the British Empire cities like Shanghai, Singapore, Mumbai, HongKong wouldn't be the economic power house they are today... I have no idea whats going on in Syria, but personally I rather our leaders make the decisions rather follow public opinion. But how anyone can say they don't care about Syria after seeing videos of kids dying from chemical poisons I don't understand? |
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08-31-2013, 03:04 AM | #42 | |
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I just think that the only reason for launching any attack against Syria is for moral purposes. And I know the moral high ground is some very expensive real estate.
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08-31-2013, 03:23 AM | #43 | |
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It's hard to believe that they have anything to gain by deliberately releasing chems in the area they control. This article asserts that the rebels were indeed responsible for at least one chem release. http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2013_0...y-Saudis-1203/ I don't know how credible VOR is. There's a link on that page that discuses that point as well. Other Russian news sources claim there's some evidence that the rebels used the chems. Strangely, however, no other nation's newsies are making the same claim.
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08-31-2013, 07:29 AM | #44 |
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Anything we see in the media is there to provoke a reaction and allow the reader to form a desired conclusion.
The intelligence I refer to is what we don't see or hear about. Satellite tracking of aircraft and missile movements, covert surveillance of radio traffic etc. You'd have to be naive to think that this information isn't available to the cabinet - it's not something that the House of Commons is briefed on because MPs aren't bound by the official secrets act. The only reason we ain't going to war is because the parties couldn't agree the timescales for going. They all agreed it needs to be done.
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