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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Dinan Software Warning...bad tuners.



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      01-17-2008, 09:46 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by b18b1ex View Post
You really think you are on par with Dinan? Come on, no propaganda, no bs, I won't tell anyone, really? In what world? certainly not this one, you don't have the resources and certainly not the pedigree. You really should just admit it you will gain more . I don't know you or am I bashing your products just pointing out facts.
First of all, you clearly admit that you "don't know me." Yet you say that I don't have comparable "pedigree" or resources. Then, to top it off, you even claim that you are just "pointing out facts." Do you see the error in your argument?

This debate can progress beyond conjecture if you simply reveal to us what testing Dinan has done that others (including myself) have not. What is so hard about this question? If you don't know the answer, can you please admit it so we can have a discussion at least sorta kinda maybe based upon fact? These unsubstantiated claims got old 12 pages ago.

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      01-17-2008, 09:56 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
First of all, you clearly admit that you "don't know me." Yet you say that I don't have comparable "pedigree" or resources. Then, to top it off, you even claim that you are just "pointing out facts." Do you see the error in your argument?

shiv
So you believe that you are on the same level or above Dinan? Have you been tuning BMW engines since late 1970-early 80's? Do you have their resources? Do you have their access? Have you cracked the ECU? All very simple questions. Again you may be good or even great at what you are doing but on par?
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      01-17-2008, 09:57 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by KWA VaTech View Post
I agree but, also think the opposite is true. If you only test your product without research and development you will never truly know what you are challenging in the engine and to what degree. This becomes very important when your test cars are limited, no long term testing has been done, and you start releasing your product to the public.

But, that’s just my 2 cents

In my line a business, it’s often impractical to build a model thus, R&D is solely relied on. Modeling may be a scientific guess. But, if the science is good a fairly accurate portrayal of conditions are generally produced. By building in conservatism a full scale product can be build with little to no prior test.



and on the flip side, you know for a fact that the current piggy backs are not doing this
absolutely - hence the discount (partially offset by the warranty)
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      01-17-2008, 09:59 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by b18b1ex View Post
So you believe that you are on the same level or above Dinan? Have you been tuning BMW engines since late 1970-early 80's? Do you have their resources? Do you have their access? Have you cracked the ECU? All very simple questions. Again you may be good or even great at what you are doing but on par?
Are you telling me Dinan cracked the ecu? Interesting... Was able to rewrite the table and still pass the CRC check?

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      01-17-2008, 10:02 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by garyhgaryh View Post
Are you telling me Dinan cracked the ecu? Interesting... Was able to rewrite the table and still pass the CRC check?

Gary
Actually if you read my previous posts, I said they were most likely given access, but who really knows, they do have a flash out for the 335. How many other tuners can say that?
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      01-17-2008, 10:19 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by b18b1ex View Post
Actually if you read my previous posts, I said they were most likely given access, but who really knows, they do have a flash out for the 335. How many other tuners can say that?
Why are you fighting against the PROcede ? I guess you don't have one, so no negative experience is possible. Buy the Dinan tune and have fun. Too much discussions about nothing. I love to see alternatives, Dinan released it's ECU flash, Helix will bring their piggyback and hopefully Jim Conforti a Shark injector ECU flash. When all products are available for the 335i more fact based discussions and comparisons will be possible. At that time the PROcede will be further developed as well. Enjoy what's going on and stop this useless bashing, please.

- Eugen
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      01-17-2008, 10:20 AM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KWA VaTech View Post
I agree but, also think the opposite is true. If you only test your product without research and development you will never truly know what you are challenging in the engine and to what degree. This becomes very important when your test cars are limited, no long term testing has been done, and you start releasing your product to the public.
You raise a good point. Good test plans include 2 approaches:

1. black box
2. understanding what's inside

In the first approach, you test as if you don't know anything about the internal workings. A good example would be if someone funded a comparison test of tuner options for the 335i (that would be fun). We'd develop a "broad brush" test plan for turbo mods regardless of who built them and how they approach the problem.

In the second approach, we'd test based on our understanding of where the design is strong, where it is weak and how it works. We can focus on the areas we are most concerned about.

Given real world constraints, most of us develop test plans that are a hybrid of both approaches. It seems like there's never enough time or money to test as thoroughly as we'd like. But many aspects of testing are boring and most engineers want to move on to the next challenge. So testing if often inadequate.

The bottom line is: "Which tuners are the smartest about testing?"
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      01-17-2008, 10:24 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by e.n335 View Post
Buy the Dinan tune and have fun.
He cant, he has an S4....

He is just here to argue I suppose.....
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      01-17-2008, 10:29 AM   #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b18b1ex View Post
...you don't have the ... pedigree.
This kind of statement could be interpreted as a racist slur. I took it to mean that you have little respect for the many years of experience Shiv has had tuning turbo cars, compared to what Steve Dinan has had building a company that markets a wide range of products -- everything from "signature floor mats" to lightweight wheels @ 1249 each + 299 spacer. What is the point here? They are both great guys. I don't get why some folks are so intent on trying to tear either one down. Dinan has a ton of stuff that his company works on. Shiv is focussed on modifying the information processing system of the N54. Can't we appreciate them both?
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      01-17-2008, 10:29 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by kyleh4852 View Post
He cant, he has an S4....

He is just here to argue I suppose.....
I like your sig. Don't we all have a screw loose ?
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      01-17-2008, 10:32 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by e.n335 View Post
I like your sig. Don't we all have a screw loose ?
LOL, thanks Eugen. You can always depend on lawdude to provide some great quotes....
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      01-17-2008, 10:39 AM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e.n335 View Post
Why are you fighting against the PROcede ? I guess you don't have one, so no negative experience is possible. Buy the Dinan tune and have fun. Too much discussions about nothing. I love to see alternatives, Dinan released it's ECU flash, Helix will bring their piggyback and hopefully Jim Conforti a Shark injector ECU flash. When all products are available for the 335i more fact based discussions and comparisons will be possible. At that time the PROcede will be further developed as well. Enjoy what's going on and stop this useless bashing, please.

- Eugen
No one is fighting against the procede, it could be a great product which I'v said. This is not a discussion about nothing, people are coming here to say that these companies are on equal footing, which is bullshit. Don't use propaganda to sell people one one product because they may not know better. Don't sit on your computer and tout that because on tune makes more power it is better. This discussion is for the benefit of everyone, if all the advantages and disadvantages are out and open to discussion it benefits all consumers. The bottom line is the two companies are not equal, by any means anyone who wants to dispute this is ignorant. BTW I like these been more Dinan bashing because they choose to be safer and conservative.

If Shiv is confident that his product causes no harm, let him stand behind it like Dinan always has with all their products, offer a warranty. I'm sure all of you supporters would have payed a little more for piece of mind.
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      01-17-2008, 10:40 AM   #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e.n335 View Post
Why are you fighting against the PROcede ? I guess you don't have one, so no negative experience is possible. Buy the Dinan tune and have fun. Too much discussions about nothing. I love to see alternatives, Dinan released it's ECU flash, Helix will bring their piggyback and hopefully Jim Conforti a Shark injector ECU flash. When all products are available for the 335i more fact based discussions and comparisons will be possible. At that time the PROcede will be further developed as well. Enjoy what's going on and stop this useless bashing, please.

- Eugen
+1000...
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      01-17-2008, 10:41 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by b18b1ex View Post
So you believe that you are on the same level or above Dinan? Have you been tuning BMW engines since late 1970-early 80's? Do you have their resources? Do you have their access? Have you cracked the ECU? All very simple questions. Again you may be good or even great at what you are doing but on par?
It really doesn't matter what I believe as I'm not the one making any comparative claims here. What matters is your ability to substantiate the claims that you repeatedly make. It's not just you don't this, so don't worry. But please stop with the swipes and take this opportunity to back up what you say with fact.

As an aside, I think everyone has their own areas of specialized knowledge. This applies to more than just the tuning world, of course. I'm in my 30s so I can't claim 30+ years of tuning experience. I've been reprogramming ECUs for the last 8 years. Developing advanced piggyback solutions for the last 6 years. Been tuning stand-alones for the last 15 years. I'd like to think I have a reasonably good overall understanding of the pros and cons of each tuning method. But if you ask me how to re-jet the carb on my shifter kart, I'll shrug my shoulders and search the web on my iphone. If you ask me to revalve a shock, I wouldn't know where to start. If you asked me how to set up the suspension of a race car, I'll refer you to our new hire (who is the director of U.S. Touring Car).

At the end of the day, I think we all need to be a little realistic about our area of expertise (and that of others). Making assumptions about how we compare to others (or how others compare to others) just leads to more bullshit on a thread that already has us ankle-deep in it.

14 months ago, many ECU tuning gurus on the various BMW forums were claiming that a piggyback solution simply wouldn't work. That the car would "learn" around it. Needless to say, this has proven to be untrue. This does not come as a surprise to me or others with first-hand experience with this method of tuning. I don't think anyone thinks less of the other tuners for being wrong. While they were cracking checksums and encryptions, we were looking under other new rocks and testing new ways to get control over timing, fuel and boost. While we were at it, we took advantage of the inherent benefits of adding extra hardware to control and ECU that controls an engine. The two approaches are different enough that any expert in one single field will look down upon the other approach. This is human nature and is to be expected. Fortunately, everyone eventually has to come to terms with the real world results. This, apparently, is the hardest thing to do

So back on subject: let's try to be factual here. If not for our sake, for the sake of people who are unfamiliar with tuning and deserve a broad, open-minded education.

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      01-17-2008, 10:44 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by stressdoc View Post
This kind of statement could be interpreted as a racist slur.
Out of line? Maybe….. you are stretching a little though, good lord.

and Shiv you've handled the criticism and discussion wonderfully. You make this seem like a useless thread but, some of us are learning a lot into what is common place in the tuning world today. For what it’s worth I think you are well above par with the 335 already, keep up the good work!
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      01-17-2008, 10:45 AM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b18b1ex View Post
...This discussion is for the benefit of everyone, if all the advantages and disadvantages are out and open to discussion it benefits all consumers. The bottom line is the two companies are not equal, by any means anyone who wants to dispute this is ignorant.
Am I just ignorant or is there a troubling contradiction between these two sentences in your statement?

No one here is saying that Vishnu = Alpina = Dinan = ACS.

Maybe you should go over to N54 and see how well you do picking on he who must not be named and the JuiceBox.
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      01-17-2008, 10:46 AM   #369
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You have yet to point out what access and resources Dinan actually has. You can't make a valid comparison with assumptions alone. You continue to make yourself look like an ignorant fool.

You do realize Dinan approached Shiv before they made their flash to see if they could sell his product with a Dinan sticker on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b18b1ex View Post
So you believe that you are on the same level or above Dinan? Have you been tuning BMW engines since late 1970-early 80's? Do you have their resources? Do you have their access? Have you cracked the ECU? All very simple questions. Again you may be good or even great at what you are doing but on par?
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      01-17-2008, 10:46 AM   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
At the end of the day, I think we all need to be a little realistic about our area of expertise (and that of others). Making assumptions about how we compare to others (or how others compare to others) just leads to more bullshit on a thread that already has us ankle-deep in it.

So back on subject, let's try to be factual here.
+1, Well said Shiv....
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      01-17-2008, 10:47 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by kyleh4852 View Post
He cant, he has an S4....

He is just here to argue I suppose.....
Oh, I guess that means I can't have knowledge or an opinion.
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      01-17-2008, 10:49 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by b18b1ex View Post
Oh, I guess that means I can't have knowledge or an opinion.
No, you can have knowledge (or claim to at least), but why not back up your claims with information instead of just an opinion?
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      01-17-2008, 10:50 AM   #373
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Because he has nothing to back up his claims with That's why he keeps dodging the questions

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Originally Posted by kyleh4852 View Post
No, you can have knowledge (or claim to at least), but why not back up your claims with information instead of just an opinion?
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      01-17-2008, 10:56 AM   #374
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Looking like this thread has run its course. Nice comments by Jim and Shiv. Thanks!

And Shiv, maybe a new thread on your new hire? Tell us who the guy is!
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