[rick100]

Originally Posted by justpete

Then again it's amazing what you can learn from a clear binary pulled with an OFT...

and I thought dyno sheets were reliable at some point...

[justpete]

Originally Posted by rick100

and I thought dyno sheets were reliable at some point...

Sort of. Depends on the dyno. Different types of dynos will produce different results. I've independently verified the results from the dyno I've measured on so I trust it when it indicated non-header and header tunes produced exactly the same results.

[Cdutch513]

Originally Posted by justpete

Sort of. Depends on the dyno. Different types of dynos will produce different results. I've independently verified the results from the dyno I've measured on so I trust it when it indicated non-header and header tunes produced exactly the same results.

Damn... crazy how when I said that ESS told me that same statement, everyone freaked out like I said their mom was a whore lol

[gunnerxq]

So what exactly is wrong with AA and their tune?

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Cdutch513

Damn... crazy how when I said that ESS told me that same statement, everyone freaked out like I said their mom was a whore lol

Well, it is why comparing results from different brand dynos is meaningless and why only comparing differences from the same dyno is meaningful although it can be difficult to quantify the variance. Mustang, Dynojet, DynoDynamic all use different loading methods and engines respond differently. I didn't trust the DynoDynamic numbers until I could duplicate the peak number on the track with an accelerometer. And that's really the only true measurement, dynos are really only useful for optimizing via differences between changes.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by gunnerxq

So what exactly is wrong wit AA and their tune?

Seems like it doesn't go far enough, leaves some stuff unchanged where you'd expect changes to be made.

[Cdutch513]

Originally Posted by justpete

Well, it is why comparing results from different brand dynos is meaningless and why only comparing differences from the same dyno is meaningful although it can be difficult to quantify the variance. Mustang, Dynojet, DynoDynamic all use different loading methods and engines respond differently. I didn't trust the DynoDynamic numbers until I could duplicate the peak number on the track with an accelerometer. And that's really the only true measurement, dynos are really only useful for optimizing via differences between changes.

ESS ran the car on the dyno with the headers and AA tune then ran it again with it on stock then and it gained 1 hp.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Cdutch513

ESS ran the car on the dyno with the headers and AA tune then ran it again with it on stock then and it gained 1 hp.

Yeah, I know, I remember. Then again they later found turbulence at the MAF location to be a problem they could solve with some redesign. It's still peculiar headers didn't help but regardless the AA tune has nothing to do with it, honestly.

[rick100]

Originally Posted by Cdutch513

Damn... crazy how when I said that ESS told me that same statement, everyone freaked out like I said their mom was a whore lol

no !ESS told you there are not gains with headers , and that is not what pete is saying. All they are saying is that there are gains but the AA tune ( off road tune) is not specific for headers

aside from the fact that ESS told you the AA tune was dangerous and they could not tune the headers at all

[Cdutch513]

Originally Posted by rick100

no !ESS told you there are not gains with headers , and that is not what pete is saying. All they are saying is that there are gains but the AA tune ( off road tune) is not specific for headers

aside from the fact that ESS told you the AA tune was dangerous and they could not tune the headers at all

No. I was told that the tune was dangerous and so was utilizing the headers with FI. The adaptations weren't right. I got like 20 hp from the headers. I saw it on paper. I think it's funny how you know more about my knowledge than me.

[hassmaschine]

yeah, the tune is not dangerous, it's very mild. Of course ESS isn't going to praise the work of a competitor..

[gunnerxq]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

yeah, the tune is not dangerous, it's very mild. Of course ESS isn't going to praise the work of a competitor..

So what could we see from an aggressive safe tune for a car with a 3 stage manifold but without headers?

[hassmaschine]

Possibly 230whp I think.

I tried to dyno mine this summer hoping to reach that (with SAE correction), but it was hot and pulling timing, and I also realized later I had my A/C running full blast the entire time (maybe why the engine was heat soaked). So it was basically a waste of $250, lol.

I mean, aggressive/safe is relative. Unless you do something stupid like double the ignition timing or something, you're not going to be able to damage the engine. heck, my car will still run just fine on 87 octane (my wife is driving it right now, don't ask).

[rick100]

i think you guys are being very generous considering the 328 stock is less than 200 whp... I watched over axiom dyno sheets and I dont recall seeing many 230 whp with just a tune a 3 stage intake.

I guess we are talking a very custom tune , one that would probably cost more than a 1000 $ ... I ve seen guys spending days and many dyno runs to get their tune right . The regular joe is not going to pay up the time a shop needs to get the tune to its full potential. People have a hard time already paying 500 bucks for off the shelf tune like AA.


I wish there was someone in my area that specializes in 328s to get it tune right to it full potential. My mechanic has a lot of knowledge but a custom tune with him would be in the 1500 $ figure easy ... He even test drove my car after installing the headers , intake and the aa tune and said it was pretty good for the price, he could get a little more power out of it but it would cost me a lot of cash

Still happy with the car performance now , can not complaint

[justpete]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

I dynoed over 210whp on both cars, and my last 3 stage + tune was over 230whp...it wasn't a AA tuned car

That would correspond to something on the order of 277bhp, pretty much impossible with just a three stage and a tune since that's an increase of 47hp over stock. Only differences matter, what was the baseline?

[rick100]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

I dynoed over 210whp on both cars, and my last 3 stage + tune was over 230whp...it wasn't a AA tuned car

Find that hard to believe my friend. Like pete said that would be close to 275 hp . 3 stage plus tune should be around 252 to 255. Something is not adding up here like i said before. You are telling me guys are able to ran european 330 (272 hp) with just a 3 stage intake and tune

If that was true then adding headers with the right tune should easy bring you up to 250wph or more. Please show me a dyno sheet from a 328 wih that much power at the wheels. That is not even including other small mods that may get you a little more power.

We are talking close to ess supercharger stage 1 numbers or stock 335 numbers. Something is not adding up here

[rjahl]

I think His last car had some custom exhaust work as well.

A typically stock N52 can be be rated by BMW at 255 HP, open the exhaust a little and you pick up a few HP now add a tune for another 10-15 and the 275 number does not look so far fetched.

Even the x5 version of the N52 is rated at 265hp with US exhaust and tune.

[rick100]

Originally Posted by rjahl

I think His last car had some custom exhaust work as well.

A typically stock N52 can be be rated by BMW at 255 HP, open the exhaust a little and you pick up a few HP now add a tune for another 10-15 and the 275 number does not look so far fetched.

Even the x5 version of the N52 is rated at 265hp with US exhaust and tune.

if you look at most stock numbers from a 328 they are usually below 200whp . I would say average is probably 185-195 whp. 15 %-20 % loss should bring you around 230 mark...

You could also compare to cars with similar power like the civic si , audi a4, subaru brz , they are all aroud 6.5-6.7 sec from 0-60 .

I really wish the bmw 328 was like 250 but its not.

When you are gettig beat by cars around that 250 hp mark ( accord v6 , subaru wrx) then you know its not 250 and when you are nose to nose with cars in the 200 hp range ( civic si , subaru brz, audi a4) then you know you are closer to the 200 hp mark.

[rjahl]

The stock 328 is missing the three stage manifold and the factory tune intentionally limits the power. Compared to the 330 it's short on valve lift, vanos timing and the fuel mixtures are off.

Just about any hack should be able to pull the key maps from a 330 and use them in a 328 to produce the same 255hp at the flywheel. A good tuner can find the balance.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by rjahl

The stock 328 is missing the three stage manifold and the factory tune intentionally limits the power. Compared to the 330 it's short on valve lift, vanos timing and the fuel mixtures are off.

Just about any hack should be able to pull the key maps from a 330 and use them in a 328 to produce the same 255hp at the flywheel. A good tuner can find the balance.

Agreed. So far BPC is indicating killing the fourth stage of the 3IM as well as the fuel dump gets to a fairly high peak number but there's no evidence any tune prior has managed to pull this off so I gotta think numbers to date are suspect.

[rick100]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

No. Completely stock the black car was 212whp
(almost on par with an AA tuned 330i automatic)
After the 3 stage and tune, plus intake was 232whp.

The white car was 214whp and a BMW Performance Exhaust.

These numbers are pretty close to what BPC dyno reads too.

So how much more can you expect from headers and small mods.

If you saying 232 whp with just a tune , 3 stage intake and a air intake then I would expect another 20-30 whp full bolt on with the right tune.

I honestly do not recall seeing a single 328 doing over 250 whp with just bolts on tune .

Stock 335 is doing around 270 whp if I remember correctly. Even ESS stage 1 supercharger was pulling those numbers.

I m very skeptical this can be done on our cars. I really wish it was possible , but there is so much you can do. I would says 230 whp-240 at the wheels is about how much you can do with these engines. Until someone comes out with cams , of course you could still get more with the ESS SC and BPC turbo . I really hope BPC can prove me wrong

[justpete]

Originally Posted by rick100

So how much more can you expect from headers and small mods.

If you saying 232 whp with just a tune , 3 stage intake and a air intake then I would expect another 20-30 whp full bolt on with the right tune.

I honestly do not recall seeing a single 328 doing over 250 whp with just bolts on tune .

Stock 335 is doing around 270 whp if I remember correctly. Even ESS stage 1 supercharger was pulling those numbers.

I m very skeptical this can be done on our cars. I really wish it was possible , but there is so much you can do. I would says 230 whp-240 at the wheels is about how much you can do with these engines. Until someone comes out with cams , of course you could still get more with the ESS SC and BPC turbo . I really hope BPC can prove me wrong

In terms of real world numbers, 230-240rwhp looks to be just about right for a 3IM, minor tune, headers, and race exhaust. Intake improvements might offer a bit as well.

Having used calibrated accelerometers and 20Hz GPS with scaled weight and environmental variables measured at the track I've verified the horsepower measured on the shop's DynoDynamic (218rwhp) within a couple of hp on the track (220rwhp). That's with a PI, RM intake coupler, 3IM, coated and wrapped headers, secondary cats, and a PE exhaust.

Getting another 10-20rwhp with just a tune seems unlikely. Secondary cat delete and race exhaust might pick up maybe five or seven hp leaving maybe ten hp or so to be had by optimizing a tune and upping redline to 7500rpm which seems doable judging by what BPC's been able to pull off.

Interestingly this corresponds to just about 300bhp, or 100hp/liter which sounds reasonably achievable without cams, increasing compression ratio, running higher octane fuel, and head work. All this might add another 10% to 330bhp, maybe, more or less, but it doesn't seem unreasonable. It is however expensive and beyond the FBO limit. And kinda pointless for the street honestly.