[OC Guy]

Originally Posted by radix

blah blah blah, leave your imperatives for someone else. There's no reason for you to think you have any right to tell me what I can and cannot post. Leave your bad attitude to another forum.

In other words, dial 1-800-go#-sand and if you get an answer ask for someone who gives a flying fuck about what you think I should and should and shouldn't post.

Oh, and you missed the point of that post entirely.

Why you crying?

What part of this not pertaining to the topic don't you get? There's a Politics/Religion sub-forum. I'd prefer if those posts stay over there.

Did Doug ever mention religion in this thread? No, yet you had to go attack him and then rant about religion. Obviously you have some issues with him. Why don't you go talk about it in the right threads?

I'm not saying I have a right to say where and what you should post, but I would think it's common forum etiquette/decency to at least address it in the proper forum/thread(s). Evidently, that novel concept escapes you.

Bad attitude? Pot kettle black.

[ghosthi32]

Originally Posted by OC 335i

Why you crying?

What part of this not pertaining to the topic don't you get? There's a Politics/Religion sub-forum. I'd prefer if those posts stay over there.

Did Doug ever mention religion in this thread? No, yet you had to go attack him and then rant about religion. Obviously you have some issues with him. Why don't you go talk about it in the right threads?

I'm not saying I have a right to say where and what you should post, but I would think it's common forum etiquette/decency to at least address it in the proper forum/thread(s). Evidently, that novel concept escapes you.

Bad attitude? Pot kettle black.

chill out fooo

[OC Guy]

Originally Posted by ghosthi32

chill out fooo

no u

[ghosthi32]

Originally Posted by OC 335i

no u

you first...lol

[radix]

Originally Posted by OC 335i

Why you crying?

What part of this not pertaining to the topic don't you get? There's a Politics/Religion sub-forum. I'd prefer if those posts stay over there.

Did Doug ever mention religion in this thread? No, yet you had to go attack him and then rant about religion. Obviously you have some issues with him. Why don't you go talk about it in the right threads?

I'm not saying I have a right to say where and what you should post, but I would think it's common forum etiquette/decency to at least address it in the proper forum/thread(s). Evidently, that novel concept escapes you.

Bad attitude? Pot kettle black.

You really don't know what you're talking about. I have no problems with doug. Furthermore, what seems to be escaping you is that all my posts were about ETI. Doug commented that people sceptical of alien life are idiots. The reason I brought up atheism is the obvious parallel as regards lack of evidence, and my prior knowledge of his views on the subject. The point was, and is, that people who don't necessarily believe in alien life aren't idiots. This is directly relevant to the topic at hand, which you seem to be conveniently ignoring.

[Verbiage]

Whoa, everyone needs to chill out lol. Its amazing how all these threads turn into poo-flinging wars.

[OC Guy]

Originally Posted by ghosthi32

you first...lol

k done. now u!

[kyleb350]

Without stating my beliefs, proving the existence of aliens and god are two different things.

We will never be able to prove there is a god for obvious reasons. There is only belief there.

Calculating the probability of alien existence is a degree of how much we know about the contents of the universe, which just so happens to be abysmally small at the moment. Therefore, we have the ability to eventually prove there is E.T. life

[radix]

Originally Posted by kyleb350

Calculating the probability of alien existence is a degree of how much we know about the contents of the universe, which just so happens to be abysmally small at the moment. Therefore, we have the ability to eventually prove there is E.T. life

Calculating the probability of alien life is impossible, which was my point. You have to find it, or wait until it finds you. You cannot logically just assume it's there. The most famous "calculation" for the probability of alien life is the Drake equation.

http://www.setileague.org/general/drake.htm

I don't know if you're familiar with it or not, so I'm posting it just in case. Now, looking at the equation itself:

N = R* fp ne fl fi fc L

where,
N = The number of communicative civilizations
R* = The rate of formation of suitable stars (stars such as our Sun)
fp = The fraction of those stars with planets. (Current evidence indicates that planetary systems may be common for stars like the Sun.)
ne = The number of Earth-like worlds per planetary system
fl = The fraction of those Earth-like planets where life actually develops
fi = The fraction of life sites where intelligence develops
fc = The fraction of communicative planets (those on which electromagnetic communications technology develops)
L = The "lifetime" of communicating civilizations

It becomes immediately obvious what the problems with the equation are. For starters, any positive values for fi and fl assume that alien life does exist, which can't be proven without evidence. The point of the equation is to determine how many intelligent civilizations live in our galaxy, but before you can assume that any do, you have to make an assumption that even non-civilized (intelligent) alien life must exist, otherwise the values for fi and fl become 0.

In order to make fi and fl non-zero you either have to:

1. Find incontrovertible proof of alien life.

or

2. Take a leap of faith.


Since #1 has not been done, #2 is required for the equation to work. The point of all my previous posts in this thread is that scientific proof does not work off of faith (hypotheses aside).

The only ways to prove alien life exists are:

1. First contact.
2. Observation of alien life itself, or other indisputable proof of it, such as alien architecture, transport, infrastructure, etc.
3. Paleontological evidence of alien life.
4. Archeological evidence of alien life.


I've probably missed a few, but you get my gist. Another problem is that all of the values at present are just guesses.

All in all, until either god or aliens make an appearance, it's unknown whether or not it's possible to prove either exist. That said, I suspect we'll see ETI before we see a god, but I have no scientific or logical reason to back that suspicion up.

[DougLikesBMW]

It is statistically, virtually impossible for there to not be life elsewhere in the universe. No one ever said it necessarily had to be intelligent life.

Also, I think it is a huge mistake to assume that life can only exist on "Earth-like" planets.

[Kroy]

I did a quick google search because I remember hearing about some proof suggesting extraterrestrial life. Was mostly thinking of #8 and #9. May not be solid proof, but I'm a believer that life exists in the universe. Intelligent life is another question, but I'd be more surprised if the universe was devoid of life; even bacteria and such.

8. 2003, Sulphur traces on Jupiter’s moon Europa may be the waste products of underground bacterial colonies

9. 2004, Methane in the Martian atmosphere hints at microbial metabolism


http://freepressinternational.com/20...restrial-life/

[radix]

Originally Posted by Kroy

I did a quick google search because I remember hearing about some proof suggesting extraterrestrial life. Was mostly thinking of #8 and #9. May not be solid proof, but I'm a believer that life exists in the universe. Intelligent life is another question, but I'd be more surprised if the universe was devoid of life; even bacteria and such.

8. 2003, Sulphur traces on Jupiter’s moon Europa may be the waste products of underground bacterial colonies

9. 2004, Methane in the Martian atmosphere hints at microbial metabolism


http://freepressinternational.com/20...restrial-life/

I'm a firm believer that ET (if not ETI) exists as well. I've also already read that article, and no, none of it constitutes proof. When undeniable proof presents itself, it will get big news coverage.

[radix]

Originally Posted by DougLikesBMW

It is statistically, virtually impossible for there to not be life elsewhere in the universe. No one ever said it necessarily had to be intelligent life.

I still have trouble with that word statistical that you seem to be clinging to...

Originally Posted by DougLikesBMW

Also, I think it is a huge mistake to assume that life can only exist on "Earth-like" planets.

but I agree with this.

[kyleb350]

I see your point where we can assume life exists but cannot prove it without finding it. However, the conditions exist where it is possible for there to be aliens, but the same cannot be said about god, no?

[radix]

Originally Posted by kyleb350

I see your point where we can assume life exists but cannot prove it without finding it.

It was never my intention to turn this into a theological debate, I merely brought up god as an expedient parallel to use for the sake of analogy. Here are my thoughts on this subject:

1. There is no incontrovertable physical evidence that alien life exists.
2. Statistical models that claim to be able to predict the presence of such life in our galaxy are based on the assumption that such life does exist, and are therefore flawed, as there is no evidence of such alien life.
3. Of the planets that we know of in the universe that could theoretically support life, we've only done anything remotely resembling extensive testing on one, Mars.
4. The fact that we exist as intelligent beings does not logically or statistically indicate the existence of life on other planets, as a sample size of one (Earth) is statistically negligible.
5. Just because other planets exist that could theoretically support life, it doesn't mean that they do. To say that something must exist merely because conditions allow for its hypothetical existence is fallacy.
6. My original point was that either it is possible for things to exist without proof of them, or it is not. It is a binary point, either/or as it were. Even the shallowest of reflection on the question should immediately yield the correct answer.

With that out of the way, I believe ETI does exist, but that is a belief, based largely on instinct, not reason. There is nothing logically compelling me to believe in ETI.

On the other hand, I am agnostic. I do not believe in any god, and certainly not a personal one, but I don't rule it out either, as god can neither be proven or disproven.

Originally Posted by kyleb350

However, the conditions exist where it is possible for there to be aliens, but the same cannot be said about god, no?

At the risk of carrying on with this rampant misunderstanding of my thoughts, beliefs, and positions on this subject, I'll answer that question with another one.

What exactly would the prerequisite conditions for an omnipotent being be?

Again, I'm not trying to prove one way or the other that god, or aliens, or the toothfairy, or Dick Clark exist, or don't exist. I was just pointing out logical discrepancies in how dogmatic some people are when it comes to these matters.

[kyleb350]

Originally Posted by radix

What exactly would the prerequisite conditions for an omnipotent being be?

For arguments sake, it would require the same conditions to prove the existence of aliens. You'd need to see physical evidence for proof of existence. Is that possible with god?

To reinterpret your point, yes, I also believe we'll find ETI first due to the fact that over time the our odds will increase having charted out the universe more.

[graider]

my believe is there are many life forms out there in the universe and there is absolutely 0% chance that we are alone.

but up until now, there is no alien ever visit earth due to the vast distance. all the alien/ufo crab are just hoax IMO. I think human will be the first to visit other planet outside of the solar system assume we don't kill ourselves in ww3 and we will be the first to find ET, but not for atleast another 50-100 years. LOL

I think the world are not taking space serious enough. terrorists should be eliminate for good and every country can unite, focus, spend more on space.

i have a feeling the space elevator will revolutionize space because it will allow us to build massive thing in space at a much lower costs. you know size does matter. instead of travelling to the nearest star in a ship with only enough space for 6 people, we can have a 1km long ship that can carry hundreds and provide all the amenities like on earth for these astronauts.

I hope we can have a ship ready for alpha centauri in 100-150 years. man, i won't live long enough to see all this amazing stuffs that human can build in the future. what a shame.

[jhv]

what if none of you actually exist? what if everything i've ever known is a false reality? who are you to tell me otherwise? you certainly can't, you're a figment of my imagination. WHO FARTED?

[ghosthi32]

Originally Posted by jh valley

what if none of you actually exist? what if everything i've ever known is a false reality? who are you to tell me otherwise? you certainly can't, you're a figment of my imagination. WHO FARTED?

What if we are acutally dreaming? Jh you farted.

[DougLikesBMW]

for those of you who haven't seen it

[jhv]

Originally Posted by DougLikesBMW

for those of you who haven't seen it

bigasspicture.jpg

this still blows my fucking mind every time i see it. holy lord that's incredible

[TunedM2C]

^ That does blow your mind. In the end though we're probably just someone's pet experiment....lol.


[u2b]<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LyzIau5dBao&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LyzIau5dBao&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>[/u2b]