[Laguna Seca Blue]

Fundahl, there are so many holes in your argument that I'm not even going to bother because this is going to just go round and round.

If CPS isn't nessesary, why does the JB4 now offer it? Let me guess, because customers demanded it, right?

I live in a hot, tropical climate. I've been on a couple of Sunday Morning Drives with the E90 guys in Hong Kong. When we start pushing it and our cars and start to heat up the guys running Cobbs and Procede's (4 in total) stay consistently powerful . The 2 JB4 cars (without CPS offsetting) start loosing power during full acceleration.

My issue with BMS is that while they might get it semi-right in the end, they spread misinformation to stay afloat when they're standing on shaky ground. They are learning basic tuning concepts as they go along! That adversely effects customers 50k+ cars. There are no ifs, buts and ums about it.

Let's face it, Terry is a cowboy. He learnt a lot of what he knows about tuning on these forums. He eventually got banned from this place because he was selling some slipshod tuning product for less than $100 without being a supporting vendor.

Yes, I'm being pedantic, but this very thread is an example of BMS unprofessionalism. I'm sorry, but I'd rather pay Vishnu or Cobb $300 extra for peace of mind.

I chose Vishnu because they have the most experience on this platform. If you think about it, BMS chose Vishnu too because their product constantly evolves to become more and more like the Procede.

[vereak82]

Originally Posted by mykal335xi

With the zealots on here this place has become a joke.

[scott_uw]

Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue

If CPS isn't nessesary, why does the JB4 now offer it? Let me guess, because customers demanded it, right?

Terry clearly only advises people get the CPS module if they are pushing as much as they can on 91 octane or have upgraded turbos.

Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue

I live in a hot, tropical climate. I've been on a couple of Sunday Morning Drives with the E90 guys in Hong Kong. When we start pushing it and our cars and start to heat up the guys running Cobbs and Procede's (4 in total) stay consistently powerful . The 2 JB4 cars (without CPS offsetting) start loosing power during full acceleration.

Hahahahahahaha... Nothing like anecdotal evidence to seal your argument from any criticism.

Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue

My issue with BMS is that while they might get it semi-right in the end, they spread misinformation to stay afloat when they're standing on shaky ground. They are learning basic tuning concepts as they go along! That adversely effects customers 50k+ cars. There are no ifs, buts and ums about it.

Are you trolling?

Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue

Let's face it, Terry is a cowboy. He learnt a lot of what he knows about tuning on these forums. He eventually got banned from this place because he was selling some slipshod tuning product for less than $100 without being a supporting vendor.

Terry tuned domestics prior to coming to the N54/N55 scene. Shiv had his hands in subbies and if you search it isn't all positive. But clearly Terry is a cowboy and cannot be trusted, he and his tune will lasso your accelerator pedal to the floor and you will die or total yet another car.

Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue

Yes, I'm being pedantic, but this very thread is an example of BMS unprofessionalism. I'm sorry, but I'd rather pay Vishnu or Cobb $300 extra for peace of mind.

Clearly you don't give BMW engineers enough credit, were it not for them I am sure that each tune would yield spectacular engine failures at the hands of novice users.

Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue

I chose Vishnu because they have the most experience on this platform. If you think about it, BMS chose Vishnu too because their product constantly evolves to become more and more like the Procede.

AMD/Intel, ATi/nVidia constantly copy each other, both put out worthwhile products and their zealots are regarded as idiots on hardware forums. If only that were the case here.

[Laguna Seca Blue]

Haha, yes I did total my M3 in January and it was partially due to dangerous modifications done to my car before I bought it. I'm not suggesting the JB4 is dangerous, it's just made me a lot more vigilant about researching modifications before I buy them.

I've owned my 335i for a little over a month and technically there is no way I'm up to speed with any of you. My arguments are based on matter's of principal.

I honestly don't know the answer to this, so I'd be happy if you cold enlighten me. Is there anything the Procede has taken from the JB products? It's one thing to copy from each other, but quite another for one company to take all of its ideas from the other...It's called intellectual property theft.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by scott_uw

Terry tuned domestics prior to coming to the N54/N55 scene. Shiv had his hands in subbies and if you search it isn't all positive. But clearly Terry is a cowboy and cannot be trusted, he and his tune will lasso your accelerator pedal to the floor and you will die or total yet another car.

Terry was a tuner before coming to this market? I am pretty sure he was a health insurance adjuster.

[Fundahl]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Terry was a tuner before coming to this market? I am pretty sure he was a health insurance adjuster.

I like your product and what you are doing. You are the only reason I check this place, besides the 1M section.

But the fact is, with the JB4 configured correctly, it works great and for what a lot of people consider a good price.

A happy motor is a happy motor, regardless of if you are intercepting different signals with different hardware or flashing the tables. You know this.

People can run stupid settings on either piggyback. I'm pretty sure both you and Terry always remind people to log, especially if they are having issues. Even to watch the "autotuning".

25+ psi on 10.2:1 compression is awesome btw. Let's all just give the N54 some love.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Fundahl

I like your product and what you are doing. You are the only reason I check this place, besides the 1M section.

But the fact is, with the JB4 configured correctly, it works great and for what a lot of people consider a good price.

A happy motor is a happy motor, regardless of if you are intercepting different signals with different hardware or flashing the tables. You know this.

People can run stupid settings on either piggyback. I'm pretty sure both you and Terry always remind people to log, especially if they are having issues. Even to watch the "autotuning".

25+ psi on 10.2:1 compression is awesome btw. Let's all just give the N54 some love.

I agree that the Jb4 works as well as anyone can reasonably expect it to. The only comment I made was with regards to comparing Terry's tuning experience or mine or any other actual tuner on this forum. If Terry didn't have a product to emulate/copy, his product would be very different right now. This is a reflection on his relative inexperience when it comes engine tuning. Yes, he fiddled with his own LS1/LT1 as a pastime. Hardly what anyone would consider to be professional tuning experience. But just a few years ago, on this forum, he was asking me how a MAP sensor worked and how to bias a wideband sensor. I even showed him how to make is first voltage divider/JB1.

This limited understand of turbo system functionality was also disturbing once he got himself into the professional tuning business. He publicly claimed that it was possible to overspool a turbo during cruise. He also thought that the compressor inlet of a turbo operated under manifold vacuum. Things that anyone with basic tuning experience would already know. Yes, he's learning as he goes. All the while pretending to be an experienced tuner. He gets away with it because he is selling product to those with less tuning experience than him. And he gets away with it because he is clever enough to copy our products well enough to (unrightfully) claim equality. He make some mistakes along the way but is quick to come out with a board revision when the problems can no longer be controlled/masked. While he does this, he spends his day behind a keyboard (on the other forum) propagating misinformation and crying about what actual tuners are accomplishing and how they are accomplishing it.

Shiv

[Laguna Seca Blue]

Shiv, thank you.

If anyone wants to do their own research, simply search "Terry335." That was Terry's name on here before he got banned. He asks some really basic questions that even I know the answer to. Scary stuff.

[MrRetep]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I agree that the Jb4 works as well as anyone can reasonably expect it to. The only comment I made was with regards to comparing Terry's tuning experience or mine or any other actual tuner on this forum. If Terry didn't have a product to emulate/copy, his product would be very different right now. This is a reflection on his relative inexperience when it comes engine tuning. Yes, he fiddled with his own LS1/LT1 as a pastime. Hardly what anyone would consider to be professional tuning experience. But just a few years ago, on this forum, he was asking me how a MAP sensor worked and how to bias a wideband sensor. I even showed him how to make is first voltage divider/JB1.

This limited understand of turbo system functionality was also disturbing once he got himself into the professional tuning business. He publicly claimed that it was possible to overspool a turbo during cruise. He also thought that the compressor inlet of a turbo operated under manifold vacuum. Things that anyone with basic tuning experience would already know. Yes, he's learning as he goes. All the while pretending to be an experienced tuner. He gets away with it because he is selling product to those with less tuning experience than him. And he gets away with it because he is clever enough to copy our products well enough to (unrightfully) claim equality. He make some mistakes along the way but is quick to come out with a board revision when the problems can no longer be controlled/masked. While he does this, he spends his day behind a keyboard (on the other forum) propagating misinformation and crying about what actual tuners are accomplishing and how they are accomplishing it.

Shiv

well, looks like its time to sell my JB4 and get a PROcede I had no clue about this history...any good deals at the moment Shiv?

[themyst]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I agree that the Jb4 works as well as anyone can reasonably expect it to. The only comment I made was with regards to comparing Terry's tuning experience or mine or any other actual tuner on this forum. If Terry didn't have a product to emulate/copy, his product would be very different right now. This is a reflection on his relative inexperience when it comes engine tuning. Yes, he fiddled with his own LS1/LT1 as a pastime. Hardly what anyone would consider to be professional tuning experience. But just a few years ago, on this forum, he was asking me how a MAP sensor worked and how to bias a wideband sensor. I even showed him how to make is first voltage divider/JB1.

This limited understand of turbo system functionality was also disturbing once he got himself into the professional tuning business. He publicly claimed that it was possible to overspool a turbo during cruise. He also thought that the compressor inlet of a turbo operated under manifold vacuum. Things that anyone with basic tuning experience would already know. Yes, he's learning as he goes. All the while pretending to be an experienced tuner. He gets away with it because he is selling product to those with less tuning experience than him. And he gets away with it because he is clever enough to copy our products well enough to (unrightfully) claim equality. He make some mistakes along the way but is quick to come out with a board revision when the problems can no longer be controlled/masked. While he does this, he spends his day behind a keyboard (on the other forum) propagating misinformation and crying about what actual tuners are accomplishing and how they are accomplishing it.

Shiv

Will be the last time I post regarding this one-sided attack. How's this different from rev1, rev2a, rev2b, rev2.5, rev3? Or V1, V2, V3, V4, V5?

AFAIK, your product had shortcomings that needed addressing as well. Does this mean you were also learning as you were going along?

[yandy]

Why is Shiv allowed to post on another competitor's thread? but not the other way around? Didn't read the entire thing, so if he got invited then oops. This f**k*ng place keeps get worst and worst with all the fanboys, from all sides, cobb,vishnu,burger,blah blah blah.. way to go internet, keep feeding the trolls.

[scott_uw]

Originally Posted by MrRetep

well, looks like its time to sell my JB4 and get a PROcede I had no clue about this history...any good deals at the moment Shiv?

Taking a vendor at his word?

Shiv, your partnership with FFTEC shows a lack of ability or knowledge when it comes to certain things. Is it fair to belittle you for that, like attacking those who haven't worked with turbos or who only have experience with pushrod engines. It's not as though Terry has not learned. You talk as though you're the plateau of tuning or engine development while people at Magnus or Buschur would look at you the same way you do Terry.

Even Garry Kasparov was eventually dethroned by someone with less experience.

[Laguna Seca Blue]

TheMyst- Learning as you go along when you're the innovator on a platform is very different from learning basic tuning techniques while selling products to fuel your hobby.

I don't think anyone can argue that Shiv was already an experienced tuner when he started on the N54 platform.

Do you see the difference?

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue

TheMyst- Learning as you go along when you're the innovator on a platform is very different from learning basic tuning techniques while selling products to fuel your hobby.

I don't think anyone can argue that Shiv was already an experienced tuner when he started on the N54 platform.

Do you see the difference?

Sigh...

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by themyst

Will be the last time I post regarding this one-sided attack. How's this different from rev1, rev2a, rev2b, rev2.5, rev3? Or V1, V2, V3, V4, V5?

AFAIK, your product had shortcomings that needed addressing as well. Does this mean you were also learning as you were going along?

Let's look at this.

Rev1-- off the shelf Haltech interceptor with proprietary firmware. To implement on the n54 platform, we had to add external boost control ballasts to keep the DME happy. Wideband bias circuitry had to be implemented in the harness.

Rev1 v2-- A simple add-on harness that offered isolated dual solenoid boost control. Prior to this point, we were increasing boost by adjusting the MAP sensor signal. This update gave us the ability to run more than 12psi above ~5500rpm. A pretty big deal at the time.

Rev2-- Our first proprietary hardware/platform. This allowed us to put the ballasts and the sideband circuitry on the circuit board instead of in the harness. This saved cost and improved physical durability.

Rev2a-- Same as rev2?

Rev2b-- We changed the wideband bias circuit to give a wider range of AFR adjustability. In anticipation of big hp applications that were never even dreamed about when we developed the first tuning device for the n54 back in 2007.

Rev2.5-- Changed a couple SMD components on the circuit board to allow for cleaner processing of the crank angle sensor signal. This allowed us to have more flexibility with CPS offsets. Primarily in the positive direction (ignition advance).

Rev3-- Same as Rev2.5 but with native USB connectivity and extra i/o channels for dedicated PWM meth control, pump activation and aux MAP sensor inputs. Primarily for designed with high boost applications/upgraded turbos/integrated methanol control in mind.

The point I'm making is that the Procede developed along with the needs/growth of the market. And also because we were learning the ins and out of the N54 at the time. This is not to be mistaken for learning engine tuning fundamentals. I'd like to believe that we learned those the decade prior.

Here a some of the things we, and we alone, developed along the way. You can see for yourself how many features/functions were eventually adopted/copied by Terry after many attempts to scare users from accepting them. I believe he insisted that every one of these were "dangerous" or "unnecessary" at one time or another:

1) Ignition timing control via CPS offsetting
2) PnP harness
3) Direct solenoid boost control
4) Rattle fix
5) Bog fix
6) CANbus integration
7) In-dash gauges/hijacking
8) PID boost control
9) Code clearing
10) Feedforward boost control
11) Integrated PWM Meth control
12) Progressive methanol mapping
13) Shift alert
14) Wastegate compensation
15) Speed delimiter
16) Command Center
17) Datalogging (<-- yes, he at one time said this was a silly "frill")
18) On the fly map-switching (remember the throttle pumping technique Terry supported?)

Again, it's not the copying that bothers me. But rather the nonsense that occurs before the copying. The blatant spreading of misinformation for the nothing more than personal gain. Some fall for it. Some don't. You can pretty much tell who is who by reading their posts.

Cheers,
Shiv

[scott_uw]

You missed the VIN lock for 'added power' under one of those revisions.

[amclint]

Originally Posted by scott_uw

Even Garry Kasparov was eventually dethroned by someone with less experience.

Funny when you apply that same idea to tech people going into business. I've seen some of the smartest people in software fall on their face and go bankrupt, and seen some guys with 0 tech experience become wildly successful running a tech company (learning as they go).

Because I'm a bit bored, I'll put this out there: how many of the Procede fanboys would still buy a Procede if BMS bought out Vishnu (and Shiv worked for Terry)? Would be funny if they kept up their act and just made $ off all the back and forth of the fanboys!

[themyst]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Let's look at this.

Rev1-- off the shelf Haltech interceptor with proprietary firmware. To implement on the n54 platform, we had to add external boost control ballasts to keep the DME happy. Wideband bias circuitry had to be implemented in the harness.

Rev1 v2-- A simple add-on harness that offered isolated dual solenoid boost control. Prior to this point, we were increasing boost by adjusting the MAP sensor signal. This update gave us the ability to run more than 12psi above ~5500rpm. A pretty big deal at the time.

Rev2-- Our first proprietary hardware/platform. This allowed us to put the ballasts and the sideband circuitry on the circuit board instead of in the harness. This saved cost and improved physical durability.

Rev2a-- Same as rev2?

I used your tune I know all the differences. Good info for those who haven't been around all that much though.

Rev2b-- We changed the wideband bias circuit to give a wider range of AFR adjustability. In anticipation of big hp applications that were never even dreamed about when we developed the first tuning device for the n54 back in 2007.

Rev2.5-- Changed a couple SMD components on the circuit board to allow for cleaner processing of the crank angle sensor signal. This allowed us to have more flexibility with CPS offsets. Primarily in the positive direction (ignition advance).

You switched resistors again from rev2b to rev2.5. Ask Tzu. Regarding advance and using it on my rev2a when you were here for misfire testing, are you saying that wasn't safe?

Rev3-- Same as Rev2.5 but with native USB connectivity and extra i/o channels for dedicated PWM meth control, pump activation and aux MAP sensor inputs. Primarily for designed with high boost applications/upgraded turbos/integrated methanol control in mind.

The point I'm making is that the Procede developed along with the needs/growth of the market. And also because we were learning the ins and out of the N54 at the time. This is not to be mistaken for learning engine tuning fundamentals. I'd like to believe that we learned those the decade prior.

I'm not defending Terry, as I know the history behind both of you. But you can't use the fact he is making revisions to his product as a detractor when you are doing the same, which is why I chose to respond.

Here a some of the things we, and we alone, developed along the way. You can see for yourself how many features/functions were eventually adopted/copied by Terry after many attempts to scare users from accepting them. I believe he insisted that every one of these were "dangerous" or "unnecessary" at one time or another:

Yes true. But he also added useful features that you never did which contribute to the user experience, some of which are done better than your implementation.

1. MAXcool
2. Steering wheel controls
3. customizable gauges
4. a larger fueling range that you picked up from him
5. code reading without a laptop.
6. methanol map adjustment on the fly without a laptop.

1) Ignition timing control via CPS offsetting
2) PnP harness
3) Direct solenoid boost control
4) Rattle fix
5) Bog fix
6) CANbus integration
7) In-dash gauges/hijacking
8) PID boost control
9) Code clearing
10) Feedforward boost control
11) Integrated PWM Meth control
12) Progressive methanol mapping
13) Shift alert
14) Wastegate compensation
15) Speed delimiter
16) Command Center
17) Datalogging (<-- yes, he at one time said this was a silly "frill")
18) On the fly map-switching (remember the throttle pumping technique Terry supported?)

Yes, but I remember those nifty remote controls you used! I still have four of them. Want them back?

Again, it's not the copying that bothers me. But rather the nonsense that occurs before the copying. The blatant spreading of misinformation for the nothing more than personal gain. Some fall for it. Some don't. You can pretty much tell who is who by reading their posts.

Let's not go there

Cheers,
Shiv

Anyway, after running all these tunes, the JB4 (G5) has now basically caught up with the Procede (sans isolated boost control). My personal opinion is Cobb is the only one that has the potential to do it all correctly in regards to fueling (important at higher power levels), timing, VANOs, etc.

When you have access to that many tables and write custom code into the DME, lots of things need to be sorted out. Which is why Cobb takes forever to publicly release something. It's not as easy as changing piggyback voltage outputs.

Until they get it all figured out, The JB4 G5 is working wonders for me!

[onesuperboi]

What other platform uses "piggy back" tunes?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by onesuperboi

What other platform uses "piggy back" tunes?

The ones that dont require injector upgrades and built motors in order to increase horsepower by 250%.

[rooringhusky]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The ones that require injector upgrades and built motors in order to increase horsepower by 250%.

LOLOL nice new signature

Shiv I enjoy your sense of humor

[spool twice]

This thread is over a year old, why was this even bumped? All piggy's and tunes have evolved since then...