[Vikingus]

Originally Posted by boostin

its almost painful to watch, isn't it?

-Chris

nah, not really, I'm having a ball reading all this stuff. Makes the day go by faster and I have a chuckle here and there.

[DrDomer]

Well, I certainly don't claim to know what many of you know about tuning cars. I was an early adopter of the Procede (hence no competition). With time I have broadened my interest to other devices. Since I have spent the $1365 on the Procede, it doesn't make a lot of sense to buy a JB1 or 2 to maybe get the same performance. Not bashing on the device.

As for the Procede v 1.47, I've never thrown one CEL or had one limp. I've had a shudder at 2K RPM when the car is floored in 6th gear which would be fixed with the 1.47 LBT map, but I've been too lazy to update the software as this rarely happens.

Everyone still skirts around the issue of whether there is a theoretcial or even real reliablity value of the Procede over a boost controller (JB1) or a boost controller with fuel control (JB2). Seems logical that you're less likely to run your vehicle at it limits of timing correction with the Procede. Sorry for the OT drivel.

All in all... Very cool people are getting these cars to 400 RWHP and sub 4 sec 0-60 times, irregardless of how it's done. I'll shutup now.

[adc]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Dynos are nice in that it doesn't take into account driver behavior or car set-up. It's become very fashionable to say that dynos aren't realistic. But this usually comes from people who don't know how to use them or don't have access to them.

I'm sure you are correct, but then many people don't have the proper knowledge to interpret dyno graphs.

I can imagine that advertising huge peak numbers for HP and torque helps sell the product, and I have absolutely nothing against it. It offers some, but not all the answers about the product. For me personally, the shape of the curves is more important.


For example, a torque peak at 2200RPM tells you nothing about the outcome of a "race" condition, which happens in the 4k-7k RPM range. People are continuously surprised at this and the effects that gearing has on real world performance...

[335i4u2nv]

all i know is i order this Juice Box 2 crap on tuesday and it better be here in NJ today or trw or else!!! lol im gettin procede anyway around tax time as well as m-tech kit and dp's. For now jb2 FTW but this Terry guy seems to talk alot about how fast his car is on other boards but i dont care. Id like to see him build a real car instead on toying with a resistor box! they been doin that since the ole Grand Nationals! lol

[boostin]

Originally Posted by 335i4u2nv

all i know is i order this Juice Box 2 crap on tuesday and it better be here in NJ today or trw or else!!! lol im gettin procede anyway around tax time as well as m-tech kit and dp's. For now jb2 FTW but this Terry guy seems to talk alot about how fast his car is on other boards but i dont care. Id like to see him build a real car instead on toying with a resistor box! they been doin that since the ole Grand Nationals! lol

that post was pretty off-topic, so my response will be as well but...his cheap mod has provided excellent gains for the cost. why wouldn't you want him in the 335i aftermarket? do people enjoy spending $1k more on a product that offers similar performance? are you getting peace of mind in spending that extra $1k? i may be weird, but i come from the land of ecu-flashing, which is probably the cheapest form of tune-able ecu's out there. evos are running nearly 500whp (600 @ flywheel) on stock ecu's. they aren't $100 mail-in flashes, they get pro-tuned through the stock ecu. $500 for a pro-tune of the stock ecu is where its at. not $1300 piggybacks like vishnu.

-Chris

[sambonator]

Originally Posted by boostin

...not $1300 mail-ins like vishnu...

Just an FYI, neither Vishnu Procede nor JBS2 are "mail-in" ECU tunes.

They are both ECU piggy-back units that intercept and modify signals.

Also, the Juicebox is not a resistor box... it contains a lot of electronics.

[boostin]

Originally Posted by sambonator

Just an FYI, neither Vishnu Procede nor JBS2 are "mail-in" ECU tunes.

They are both ECU piggy-back units that intercept and modify signals.

Also, the Juicebox is not a resistor box... it contains a lot of electronics.

i wasn't saying that they aren't piggybacks, i was referring to the process of purchasing them; which is mailing, as opposed to a protune.

the protune that i referred to in my post would be physically going to the dyno and getting custom-tuned to your car. maybe i'm misunderstanding how the 335i ecu works, but wouldn't there be a benefit to getting tuned on a dyno rather than just installing an ecu with no adjustments?

-Chris

[sambonator]

Originally Posted by boostin

...but wouldn't there be a benefit to getting tuned on a dyno rather than just installing an ecu with no adjustments?

-Chris

Yes... but it would be a lot more expensive...
...and I think Vishnu can do a custom tune, as well as ActiveAutowerke.

[boostin]

Originally Posted by sambonator

Yes... but it would be a lot more expensive...
...and I think Vishnu can do a custom tune, as well as ActiveAutowerke.

right, if they offer protunes then thats great. my whole point is that $1300 and no protune is a rip in my opinion. i could get an AEM EMS for my S2000 at that price. apples to oranges i know but still....

-Chris

[sambonator]

Originally Posted by boostin

right, if they offer protunes then thats great. my whole point is that $1300 and no protune is a rip in my opinion. i could get an AEM EMS for my S2000 at that price. apples to oranges i know but still....

-Chris

Well somebody's gotta pay for Shiv's mansion and Porsche Turbo's

[boostin]

Originally Posted by sambonator

Well somebody's gotta pay for Shiv's mansion and Porsche Turbo's

agreed

-Chris

[Beer Goggles]

Originally Posted by boostin

right, if they offer protunes then thats great. my whole point is that $1300 and no protune is a rip in my opinion. i could get an AEM EMS for my S2000 at that price. apples to oranges i know but still....

-Chris

I've brought this point up plenty in the battles of "who is better." In reality it's always better to tune 1 car than blanket tune a group.

[boostin]

Originally Posted by Beer Goggles

I've brought this point up plenty in the battles of "who is better." In reality it's always better to tune 1 car than blanket tune a group.

i agree. honestly i'm not trying to break anyone's balls here but the BMW forums i've been on seem to have limited knowledge of turbocharged engines and the tuning concept of them. i've been an active member on supraforums, evom, and iwsti and they are light-years ahead of this forum when it comes to forced induction. probably because forced induction is new to BMW but god DAMN. nobody even mentions the problem of blanket tuning cars. not all cars are the same people! this is probably (as opposed to definitely) why there are problems with limp mode and supposed detonations; they're not protuned with the right tool. all turbo engines are not created equal; this is the first rule for turbocharged engines.

the best thing that could happen to the N54 community would be a flash-based ecu tool (ala evo/sti) for tuning. this hit or miss, mail-order piggyback business doesn't suit the supposed "high-class nature" of the BMW community. $1300 for a mail-order tune! you would be ostracized over on the evo/sti forums for trying to sell such a product. their mail-order tunes are $200 and are guaranteed at LEAST 20whp depending on mods (100% stock cars will get 20whp; add a fuel pump and boost controller to the mail-in flash and you're at 30ish whp. for 1/6th the price of a procede.)

/rant

-Chris

[DrDomer]

Most of us are newbies to modding their cars. We've all been drawn in to the idea of a free lunch.

"Get your mail to order piggyback that is 100% undetectable to get 50+ RWHP and protect your warranty at the same time!"

The Procede was the first to offer such a product, and probably at least 50% of us who jumped at the chance to increase their HP never had bought an aftermarket product, period. I've learned some on these boards. But to make us all feel real bad, go over to the forced induction section of the GM forums that are discussing the new turbocharged 4-cyl and you'll realize this is all child's play here. I can follow 95% of what are on these forums, over there I feel like I'm back in Advanced Physics learning about tunneling theory (I keep tapping my finger on the wall anyway - that might make some people laugh ). So boostin definitely is spot on. I can't imagine what the discussions are like in forums where forced induction is all anyone knows.

[Beer Goggles]

The problem here is that everybody who bought one now thinks they are FI masters and everything else is crap. But coming from my FI Z, and knowing people blindly defend what they bought (in the FI Z world it was APS, JWT, Greddy Turbonetics owners all saying theirs is the best). And that's generally all people do. I bought it so I'm smart and you're dumb, and don't really have the testing to say A is better than B.

But all the options now are for a stock car (so they say) and changing anything in the A/F department won't be altered without something being changed. And I don't see any of these as "tuneable" and by that I mean going to a good tuner.

[boostin]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

Most of us are newbies to modding their cars. We've all been drawn in to the idea of a free lunch.

"Get your mail to order piggyback that is 100% undetectable to get 50+ RWHP and protect your warranty at the same time!"

The Procede was the first to offer such a product, and probably at least 50% of us who jumped at the chance to increase their HP never had bought an aftermarket product, period. I've learned some on these boards. But to make us all feel real bad, go over to the forced induction section of the GM forums that are discussing the new turbocharged 4-cyl and you'll realize this is all child's play here. I can follow 95% of what are on these forums, over there I feel like I'm back in Advanced Physics learning about tunneling theory (I keep tapping my finger on the wall anyway - that might make some people laugh ). So boostin definitely is spot on. I can't imagine what the discussions are like in forums where forced induction is all anyone knows.

i'm glad some people are able to see this and are not just blindly defend the procede. my sophomore year of college (2nd semester senior now) i wrote a 12pg. paper for my Physics writing-intensive course on turbocharged engines and how they work. i can tell you that this stuff gets so in-depth it takes some determination to learn it. not to sound like a know-it-all, but i think people should go over to supraforums.com and evolutionm.net and do some reading on turbocharged motors. on evom.net you'll see the emphasis on a protune as opposed to mail-in tuning, and on supraforums.com they will get so in-depth with physics and the like that you will think you're on some sort of scientific community forum. some of these guys have been doing this for years and they know their stuff.

beer goggles - absolutely i remember when i considered a turbo Z. the debates about the TN kits not being reliable, that Greddy twins blow more likely than anything else etc etc. its crazy and is one of the reasons i gave up on researching a turbo Z; that and the fact that they like to pop around 400whp (or sooner).

-Chris

[DrDomer]

I've bought three books on forced induction. I have a BS in Chemistry and Biology. I've taken several upper level physics courses throughout my life. I've taken upper level calculus and numbers theory. I'm no stranger to a brain twister, and it really does take a lot of reading and re-reading to get some of this shit. It's frustrating. And just when you think you understand something, it's old shit and is meaningless.

[Beer Goggles]

Originally Posted by boostin

i'm glad some people are able to see this and are not just blindly defend the procede. my sophomore year of college (2nd semester senior now) i wrote a 12pg. paper for my Physics writing-intensive course on turbocharged engines and how they work. i can tell you that this stuff gets so in-depth it takes some determination to learn it. not to sound like a know-it-all, but i think people should go over to supraforums.com and evolutionm.net and do some reading on turbocharged motors. on evom.net you'll see the emphasis on a protune as opposed to mail-in tuning, and on supraforums.com they will get so in-depth with physics and the like that you will think you're on some sort of scientific community forum. some of these guys have been doing this for years and they know their stuff.

beer goggles - absolutely i remember when i considered a turbo Z. the debates about the TN kits not being reliable, that Greddy twins blow more likely than anything else etc etc. its crazy and is one of the reasons i gave up on researching a turbo Z; that and the fact that they like to pop around 400whp (or sooner).

-Chris

I had a Greddy Twin Turbo and stock at 340whp, and with a fuel pump it would have been 400whp or almost 450hp, not bad for boosting a NA engine and no internals. They were up to 900whp on built engines not too long ago. Greddy was first to market and they got to be the test kit for many limits of the engine.

I miss my Z, it was a great car and it still turned heads out here in Car land. The week before I sold it i had people coming up and even following me to say "awesome"

[boostin]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

I've bought three books on forced induction. I have a BS in Chemistry and Biology. I've taken several upper level physics courses throughout my life. I've taken upper level calculus and numbers theory. I'm no stranger to a brain twister, and it really does take a lot of reading and re-reading to get some of this shit. It's frustrating. And just when you think you understand something, it's old shit and is meaningless.

exactly - in a month i'm about the graduate with a BA in History but i had to take a couple science classes (including physics) to satisfy the degree and i can say its not easy stuff. technology with turbochargers is becoming equal with that of computer technology. once you learn something, six months later its been one-upped by another more advanced form of technology.

-Chris

[catdog]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Is Terry using the same downhill stretch of land as he did last time when he posted his g-tech results? Regardless, I don't see 0-60mph being anything more than a test of traction when we are talking about a car that makes over 300bhp. Do a 0-100mph instead. It's no harder but a lot more revealing.

shiv

Hey Shiv just for kicks, what's your best 0-130, can you match this? If you don't own a gtech pro i will send you my unit for 2 weeks and you can try to match my numbers, do you accept the challenge?

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by catdog

Hey Shiv just for kicks, what's your best 0-130, can you match this? If you don't own a gtech pro i will send you my unit for 2 weeks and you can try to match my numbers, do you accept the challenge?

0-130mph in 14.7 seconds? That's faster than a new Mercedes AMG C63. Not realistic at all. The gtech may be useful for comparing relative gains, but those numbers are way optimistic. Furthermore, putting a gtech on a different car, in a different part of the country and comparing against your results is one step away from bench racing. Way too many variables to make a meaningful comparison.

[hotrod182]

Comparing different drag strips from across the country can give just as confusing information.