[AJ@ESS]

Originally Posted by rick100

In summary

All the different dyno sheets from before and after AA headers or any other headers are a lie . All the guys running AA headers that have given positive reviews ( including me) must be lying , placebo effect maybe , oh well.

Im done with this thread. Still no videos of ESS SC. wonder why... Still customers of ESS SC complaining , nothing new here
Back to the turbocharge thread , funny enough BPC are also AA dealers and they don't seem to have such a problem .

We do not allow headers that we have tested as incompatible with our kit. If you think they are great and you see power numbers we never have seen in our very extensive testing then all power to you! We still won't allow the use of headers with our SC kit without denying all support as AFR control is not correct and we also prefer to not supercharge cars that have been running without proper knock control. We also see no real need for headers as we can easily get to our power target with nothing but the kit as long as OEM manifolds are not clogged. We can actually do 30-40whp more than target if we want to. That being said, a replacement system for cars with clogged cats would be nice without having to buy OEM. Therefore we are still searching for a viable alternative with correct AFR control. This is critical when using forced induction.

And again, what exact ESS customer is complaining? There seem to be so many according to you, but I have a very hard time finding them to offer support. We do not leave customers hanging, we either correct whatever issue there is or offer a full 30 day refund if diagnostics is not logistically feasible.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

Here is a non P31 US spec C63 before and after ECU tuning. All stock car :

[IMG]image sharing[/IMG]

To be clear, I'm not going to attack you further - you make a solid products that besides a few hick ups, people seem to be happy with. I'm not going to debate your tuning skills, as I think it take a great deal of confidence (or stupidity) to come on to a forum and be open to conversation and criticism.

However, I will dispute a few things - as far as I know, OE tuning has the fastest tune only C63, and has hit higher numbers with headers (and no reported issues) so objectively speaking -is it a one off issue or something else?

I have a few N52 related questions for you in a moment.

[94marcus]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

To be clear, I'm not going to attack you further - you make a solid products that besides a few hick ups, people seem to be happy with. I'm not going to debate your tuning skills, as I think it take a great deal of confidence (or stupidity) to come on to a forum and be open to conversation and criticism.

However, I will dispute a few things - as far as I know, OE tuning has the fastest tune only C63, and has hit higher numbers with headers (and no reported issues) so objectively speaking -is it a one off issue or something else?

I have a few N52 related questions for you in a moment.

can I ask how you came to know all this stuff?... are you like some type of software/mechanical engineer or something?... secret AA employee maybe?? haha just kidding just genuinely interested how how you know most of the mechanical and tuning things that affect(or is it effect?) our cars?

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by 94marcus

can I ask how you came to know all this stuff?... are you like some type of software/mechanical engineer or something?... secret AA employee maybe?? haha just kidding just genuinely interested how how you know most of the mechanical and tuning things that affect(or is it effect?) our cars?

I was unemployed for 3 months and did a lot of reading. Hasmachine and Rjahl are the people you should really be speaking to/about when you ask questions.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

You should, as I would love to actually get to the bottom of this once and for all. We have absolutely no motive against headers if they worked correctly on the N52. However we have to advice against it as it simply doesn't function correctly in any configuration we have seen. You should also bring in a car so we can do some actual testing of what exactly is going on in your car (for free). I will even let you guys operate the dyno and walk you through the issues we found on setups we have seen come through.

Exactly what about them doesn't function correctly? You stated that the signal from the O2 sensors can lead to screwy A/F ratios - where?


Independently dynoed 328i Automatic. A/F curve within spec, cat overheat protection seems to be disabled



Different tuner, different car (manual) same headers - again, similar A/F curve and a power output beyond anything ESS has shown without a supercharger.

So we have established that these cars with headers are stable A/F ratios....and according to the graphs, make more power than non headered cars, which is contrary to what you say.

You also have been reported stating this:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19847444&postcount=12

And this
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20435584&postcount=3

And this

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18796303&postcount=5

[rick100]

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

We do not allow headers that we have tested as incompatible with our kit. If you think they are great and you see power numbers we never have seen in our very extensive testing then all power to you! We still won't allow the use of headers with our SC kit without denying all support as AFR control is not correct and we also prefer to not supercharge cars that have been running without proper knock control. We also see no real need for headers as we can easily get to our power target with nothing but the kit as long as OEM manifolds are not clogged. We can actually do 30-40whp more than target if we want to. That being said, a replacement system for cars with clogged cats would be nice without having to buy OEM. Therefore we are still searching for a viable alternative with correct AFR control. This is critical when using forced induction.

And again, what exact ESS customer is complaining? There seem to be so many according to you, but I have a very hard time finding them to offer support. We do not leave customers hanging, we either correct whatever issue there is or offer a full 30 day refund if diagnostics is not logistically feasible.

all I said was the very few reviews we get from the customer runing ESS SC kit always start with some type of problem. I understand you guys do not leave your customers hanging as those threads go away after a while. Personally I only know one person running this ESS SC that also had a problem with tuning , whether it was the tuning or something else I really do not know as I dont keep in touch with that person. I still have to see a thread starting with how amazing this kit is .

Also to be clear with you , the problem is the ESS SC kit running with AA headers, however keep in mind that there are many customers in this forum running the AA headers without having their engine go on fire , also there have been many dyno sheets proven the gains of the AA headers ( including the one I have installed).

This will be my last post in this thread. I have not interest in getting this kit . Still it is a nice option for people looking for some significant power increase I guess

[Ruddigger]

If the AA headers are bad because of the location of the O2 sensors, could you make some with the O2 sensors in a more stock location, and test that?

[AJ@ESS]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

To be clear, I'm not going to attack you further - you make a solid products that besides a few hick ups, people seem to be happy with. I'm not going to debate your tuning skills, as I think it take a great deal of confidence (or stupidity) to come on to a forum and be open to conversation and criticism.

However, I will dispute a few things - as far as I know, OE tuning has the fastest tune only C63, and has hit higher numbers with headers (and no reported issues) so objectively speaking -is it a one off issue or something else?

I have a few N52 related questions for you in a moment.

We can't speak for what others claim. During SC development for the M156 we have not seen any significant gains on a EU spec C63 P31 car using the most popular headers/x-pipe on the market claimed to give 40+whp. The car runs fine with headers, there is a slight delay in O2 feedback timing, but nothing that affects overall function much. It is nothing like the N52 when it comes to issues with O2 control. If you eliminate cats on a US spec C63 you will get noticeable gains. You will also never get the same results from a non-P31 car as the engine internals are different in the base version. There are marketing and hype everywhere, we actually analyze everything relevant when we develop a new SC system for an engine platform and we are often shocked by the astounding amount of mis-information out there. If anyone has questions on our findings, just contact us and we will prove it in person.

I honestly would be very happy if we did not have to turn away a large amount of customers running N52 headers or even get into these debates of why turning off knock detection is pissing in the customer pool as we really can't load up these engine without massive risk of failure afterwards. That's why I say to the companies in question, contact us and we will assist in making safe/correct versions at no charge. All we want is a customer pool that has functional and compatible hardware and customers who do not have compromised engines from running unsafe cylinder noise levels for extended periods of time. This has been the case in several markets, in the E60 M5 market it was a huge problem for a while. In the case of the N52 there are no significant power to be had either. I have seen N52 tuning files from major vendors where knock detection is effectively turned off and massive ignition timing is ran, but Valvetronic lift height is left stock. This is absurd as raising valve lift actually makes safe power in a 325/328, more so than forcing timing.

[AJ@ESS]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Exactly what about them doesn't function correctly? You stated that the signal from the O2 sensors can lead to screwy A/F ratios - where?


Independently dynoed 328i Automatic. A/F curve within spec, cat overheat protection seems to be disabled



Different tuner, different car (manual) same headers - again, similar A/F curve and a power output beyond anything ESS has shown without a supercharger.

So we have established that these cars with headers are stable A/F ratios....and according to the graphs, make more power than non headered cars, which is contrary to what you say.

You also have been reported stating this:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...4&postcount=12

And this
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...84&postcount=3

And this

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...03&postcount=5

When you drive the car around and go from accel to decel/back and actually make the adaptation system work, you will notice large delays in actual vs target AFR. It adapts in large waves and is nowhere near instant or correct like a OEM manifold car. This may not be very noticeable in a NA car (I notice it well, but I am trained to do so). In a SC car it is plain dangerous if you get into full boost and adaptation is at -20% and AFR is 16:1 for a while as a result of delayed feedback during a transition. That's why we can't allow it to be used with our SC kits. For NA use, it is not really dangerous if people are fine with the small symptoms that are often noticeable.

[AJ@ESS]

Originally Posted by Ruddigger

If the AA headers are bad because of the location of the O2 sensors, could you make some with the O2 sensors in a more stock location, and test that?

Yes, this will work. If you make a 3 to 1 merge that is tucked close to the ports of the engine with minimal increase in gas volume it should be OK. This is an option we are looking into for the people with high mileage OEM cats that are congested.

[AJ@ESS]

Originally Posted by rick100

all I said was the very few reviews we get from the customer runing ESS SC kit always start with some type of problem. I understand you guys do not leave your customers hanging as those threads go away after a while. Personally I only know one person running this ESS SC that also had a problem with tuning , whether it was the tuning or something else I really do not know as I dont keep in touch with that person. I still have to see a thread starting with how amazing this kit is .

Also to be clear with you , the problem is the ESS SC kit running with AA headers, however keep in mind that there are many customers in this forum running the AA headers without having their engine go on fire , also there have been many dyno sheets proven the gains of the AA headers ( including the one I have installed).

This will be my last post in this thread. I have not interest in getting this kit . Still it is a nice option for people looking for some significant power increase I guess

That's simply because out of a 100 sold kits, 3-5 will have some issues with installation or car systems. This is normal and will never change. We have to simply work our way through them. It is these customers you often hear from online. The huge majority of happy customers are never to be seen again. 90% of our customer base we never hear from again at all until it is time for a new product.

As I said before, if you know of anyone with an N52 kit that is not running correctly, simply put them in touch with us. We will guide them through the troubleshooting and they will end up with a correctly running product or a full refund if it is a problem we can't easily solve.

That being said, I have to get back to work so this is the last time I will check this thread. People will always disagree with whatever is done or said. We simply disclose the findings we encounter that directly affects the use of our products. A lot of people may not like it, but we never lie. We tell it exactly like it is, good or bad. We will prove and back up every statement we make upon direct request and we will also do our best to help out anyone who may want to use our findings in their own product improvement.

[PhaseP]

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

The car runs just fine as it is, I have ordered a new MAF sensor/screen to try to eliminate the small idle variation when AC engages. MAF less is not an option on N51 engines like you have. I am not sure it will be in today, but I will check. If you need a car, just rent one locally. We will pay for it. Another option is to pick up your car and drop it back off again when the MAF sensor/screen arrives.

Just two cents worth suggestion: give a try of cleaning the connection pins on the MAF and the cable side connector pins real good with a high quality contact cleaner.

[rjahl]

For what it's worth,

One think I have noticed logging my car is the lambda seems to "hunt" more than normal when the IAFs are high. It clears up as soon as the IAFs drop but that initial surge of hot air seems to be an issue. By hot, I'm talking about 115 degree F +.

You may not see this on a dyno as no one would be interested in running a hot car but a supercharged car is certainly going to see these AITs.

This could be the original MAF or O2 sensors in a car with 170,000 miles but something I've seen on several of my hot weather logs.

[JayTriggy14]

Hey Tom. Did you end up getting your issues resolved with ESS? How does the car perform now? Did you uninstall the supercharger? Thanks for the update.

[Tom Droze]

Originally Posted by JayTriggy14

Hey Tom. Did you end up getting your issues resolved with ESS? How does the car perform now? Did you uninstall the supercharger? Thanks for the update.

Here is the latest... ESS installed a new intake tube with a baffle in front of the MAF sensor and they also installed (free of charge) a new MAF sensor. The new intake tube was designed to be used on the N51 because it utilizes the MAF sensor, where the tune for the N52 does not. So far the CEL is staying off. I drove the car from Phoenix to Las Vegas on Thursday (300 miles) and the car ran good. My gas mileage dropped to around 16.5 MPG around town but I got 28 MPG on the road trip to Las Vegas. Now that the car seems to be dialed in I really like the way it runs.

[JayTriggy14]

Originally Posted by Tom Droze

Here is the latest... ESS installed a new intake tube with a baffle in front of the MAF sensor and they also installed (free of charge) a new MAF sensor. The new intake tube was designed to be used on the N51 because it utilizes the MAF sensor, where the tune for the N52 does not. So far the CEL is staying off. I drove the car from Phoenix to Las Vegas on Thursday (300 miles) and the car ran good. My gas mileage dropped to around 16.5 MPG around town but I got 28 MPG on the road trip to Las Vegas. Now that the car seems to be dialed in I really like the way it runs.

Awesome! Glad to hear man. I have an N51 as well so it seems like they may have a specialized intake tube and baffle for the N51 in future kits then. I am glad that ESS fixed all of your issues!

[jan31]

Does anyone with this ESS SC had track their car? How much faster is the car now?

[JuniorB]

So the rumors of the headers are true now that it's been explained. You can't compare na vs fi and have the same results.I would have thought just the primary may be the issue and could have been moved up. Surprisied the numbers are low when adding headers,the seem it's what this motor needed.

[Zajac1]

So the best way to get the most from supercharger and reduce the risk of future issues is to keep your car stock, without any aa headers etc. ??

[Tom Droze]

Originally Posted by Zajac1

So the best way to get the most from supercharger and reduce the risk of future issues is to keep your car stock, without any aa headers etc. ??

Yes.

[JayTriggy14]

Originally Posted by Tom Droze

Yes.

Btw did you upgrade the pulley?

[Tom Droze]

Originally Posted by JayTriggy14

Btw did you upgrade the pulley?

Another downfall of the N51, I can't upgrade the pulley--the MAF sensor is at its air flow limit with the 120 MM pulley so I can't upgrade to the 115 MM pulley, which would provide an additional 20 horsepower.