[S4to335]

So, I am out with my friend on the Infineon racetrack this weekend..road course...and I am going pretty hard. I have over 120 track days under my belt..my car has a Dinan tune...coilovers/exhaust/lighter wheels/track tires(235/40/18 on all four corners)/big brakes...and my friend has a stock 135i with R compounds..and just koni coilovers (although his tires were at 255/35/18s). He use to own a procede tune..but I just found out he didnt have it in the car when we were on the track.

My comment is this..when we were driving hard on the track...I didnt see any significant power increase in my car over his..his should have been in the stock range of what? 305 to 310 bhp at the crank...and 300 ft lbs at the crank in torque. Mine should have been close to 80 more bhp...and maybe 100 more ft lbs of torque..but, I could not really gain on him that much at all...maybe a slight amount..but certainly not that noticable. I actually thought that he was chipped on the track..but found out later he wasnt. This actually concerns me.

Why would I not be able to gain on him..or pull away from him noticably on the track? heat soak? weight differences? wouldnt he have heat soak too?

In case you are reading this Shiv..it was Navid driving the 135i.

[satakal]

positive he wasn't pulling your leg about not having a tune?

Did you miss the wink of the eye when he said... "I do *not* (wink) have a tune".

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by S4to335

So, I am out with my friend on the Infineon racetrack this weekend..road course...and I am going pretty hard. I have over 120 track days under my belt..my car has a Dinan tune...coilovers/exhaust/lighter wheels/track tires(235/40/18 on all four corners)/big brakes...and my friend has a stock 135i with R compounds..and just koni coilovers (although his tires were at 255/35/18s). He use to own a procede tune..but I just found out he didnt have it in the car when we were on the track.

My comment is this..when we were driving hard on the track...I didnt see any significant power increase in my car over his..his should have been in the stock range of what? 305 to 310 bhp at the crank...and 300 ft lbs at the crank in torque. Mine should have been close to 80 more bhp...and maybe 100 more ft lbs of torque..but, I could not really gain on him that much at all...maybe a slight amount..but certainly not that noticable. I actually thought that he was chipped on the track..but found out later he wasnt. This actually concerns me.

Why would I not be able to gain on him..or pull away from him noticably on the track? heat soak? weight differences? wouldnt he have heat soak too?

In case you are reading this Shiv..it was Navid driving the 135i.

Because Navid is very good driver

No disrespect to you (because you could be an awesome driver for all I know). But I do know Navid and he's pretty fast.

For those who aren't experienced road racing, it can be shocking how much faster a good driver can be (in a less powerful car) than even an intermediate-level driver (in a more powerful car). They usually pick up a several car lengths under braking and then a few at turn exit. And then a whole bunch more in high speed sweepers. It's very very hard to compensate for superior driving skills with a more powerful car. In fact, most typical drivers will find more powerful cars to be harder to drive. Which can often make them not much faster and sometimes even slower

Shiv

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by S4to335

So, I am out with my friend on the Infineon racetrack this weekend..road course...and I am going pretty hard. I have over 120 track days under my belt..my car has a Dinan tune...coilovers/exhaust/lighter wheels/track tires(235/40/18 on all four corners)/big brakes...and my friend has a stock 135i with R compounds..and just koni coilovers (although his tires were at 255/35/18s). He use to own a procede tune..but I just found out he didnt have it in the car when we were on the track.

My comment is this..when we were driving hard on the track...I didnt see any significant power increase in my car over his..his should have been in the stock range of what? 305 to 310 bhp at the crank...and 300 ft lbs at the crank in torque. Mine should have been close to 80 more bhp...and maybe 100 more ft lbs of torque..but, I could not really gain on him that much at all...maybe a slight amount..but certainly not that noticable. I actually thought that he was chipped on the track..but found out later he wasnt. This actually concerns me.

Why would I not be able to gain on him..or pull away from him noticably on the track? heat soak? weight differences? wouldnt he have heat soak too?

In case you are reading this Shiv..it was Navid driving the 135i.

perhaps the 135's have a more efficient intercooler?

I think you more than anyone would benefit from a monster intercooler, heat soak might be killing you and the ECU is pulling boost and timing to keep things in check.

[ar design]

You need an oil cooler + FMIC. You're losing a TON of power to heatsoak.

[OpenFlash]

Just re-read the OP's post more carefully. Looks like Navid also had R-compounds. That's worth a few seconds a lap right there. And a lot more if someone knows how to use them!

Shiv

[danniexi]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

For those who aren't experienced road racing, it can be shocking how much faster a good driver can be (in a less powerful car) than even an intermediate-level driver (in a more powerful car). They usually pick up a several car lengths under braking and then a few at turn exit. And then a whole bunch more in high speed sweepers. It's very very hard to compensate for superior driving skills with a more powerful car. In fact, most typical drivers will find more powerful cars to be harder to drive. Which can often make them not much faster and sometimes even slower

Shiv

+1. I bet Michael Schumacher can overtake me in a Geo Metro if we were on a road course.

[satakal]

I'm positive that S4t0335 knows what he's talking about.

shouldn't his 350-370 hp car be able to chase down the 300 hp car on the straights? All things are not equal in the corners. But, on the straight parts...

[sambonator]

I think its a combination of more weight (335>135), taller gearing due to taller tires/less torque to the ground (235/40/18 taller than 255/35/18), skinnier/less sticky tires, and not enough straightaway to take advantage of the power difference.

I think he can begin to accelerate harder out of corners as well due to the differences mentioned above.

[Kbueno]

Originally Posted by sambonator

I think its a combination of more weight (335>135), taller gearing due to taller tires/less torque to the ground (235/40/18 taller than 255/35/18), skinnier/less sticky tires, and not enough straightaway to take advantage of the power difference.

I think he can begin to accelerate harder out of corners as well due to the differences mentioned above.

+1...if he's getting out of the corners faster, it will be harder to reel him in.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by satakal

I'm positive that S4t0335 knows what he's talking about.

shouldn't his 350-370 hp car be able to chase down the 300 hp car on the straights? All things are not equal in the corners. But, on the straight parts...

If a less powerful car is already going 10-15mph faster out of the corner, the more powerful car is going to have a helluva catching up despite accelerating faster.

In the real of drag racing, this is like having one car leave the lights already traveling 15mph while another starts from a dead stop. The second car can have 80 more hp but it's probably not going to catch up at the end of the 1/4 mile. Now imagine straights that aren't even a 1/4 long and where you have to brake hard at the end. This is why road racing < drag racing

Anyone who hasn't been on a race track with other, much faster, drivers will not understand just how significant the difference driving skill makes. All this take about more efficient ICs, more/less power, etc,. is largely insignificant.

shiv

[jpsimon]

Originally Posted by satakal

I'm positive that S4t0335 knows what he's talking about.

shouldn't his 350-370 hp car be able to chase down the 300 hp car on the straights? All things are not equal in the corners. But, on the straight parts...

All things are not equal on the straights, it all depends on how you get out of the corner

[ar design]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

If a less powerful car is already going 10-15mph faster out of the corner, the more powerful car is going to have a helluva catching up despite accelerating faster.

In the real of drag racing, this is like having one car leave the lights already traveling 15mph while another starts from a dead stop. The second car can have 80 more hp but it's probably not going to catch up at the end of the 1/4 mile. Now imagine straights that aren't even a 1/4 long and where you have to brake hard at the end. This is why road racing < drag racing

Anyone who hasn't been on a race track with other, much faster, drivers will not understand just how significant the difference driving skill makes. All this take about more efficient ICs, more/less power, etc,. is largely insignificant.

shiv

If you're running a tune, you're pushing a lot more heat into the intercooler and oil. Hence, you're going to heatsoak a lot faster, and a lot worse than an untuned car, perhaps leaving the chipped car with ~ the same amount of power as a stock car due to boost and timing being yanked due to astronomical IATs.... That was my thought.... Not trying to be Billy Mays here and just sell product :P

NOTE: I am *not* bashing the V3, or saying its not good for the track, lest anyone read into what I am saying too much. The above goes for ANY tune. I personally run a ProCEDE FWIW.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by ar design

If you're running a tune, you're pushing a lot more heat into the intercooler and oil. Hence, you're going to heatsoak a lot faster, and a lot worse than an untuned car, perhaps leaving the chipped car with ~ the same amount of power as a stock car due to boost and timing being yanked due to astronomical IATs.... That was my thought.... Not just trying to be a shill and sell product :P

maybe just a little

[ar design]

Originally Posted by Sniz

maybe just a little

Hey now! I don't even sell a FMIC

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by ar design

Hey now! I don't even sell a FMIC

you should

[ar design]

Originally Posted by Sniz

you should

I currently have an uncureable itch for a bigger turbo.... FMIC? Later

[satakal]

Originally Posted by ar design

If you're running a tune, you're pushing a lot more heat into the intercooler and oil. Hence, you're going to heatsoak a lot faster, and a lot worse than an untuned car, perhaps leaving the chipped car with ~ the same amount of power as a stock car due to boost and timing being yanked due to astronomical IATs.... That was my thought.... Not trying to be Billy Mays here and just sell product :P

NOTE: I am *not* bashing the V3, or saying its not good for the track, lest anyone read into what I am saying too much. The above goes for ANY tune. I personally run a ProCEDE FWIW.

the OP runs a Dinan tune

[ar design]

Originally Posted by satakal

the OP runs a Dinan tune

Ack! Brain fart Well, the above still goes for any tune.... I also partially said V3 since I was "talking" to Shiv....

[5soko]

Originally Posted by ar design

If you're running a tune, you're pushing a lot more heat into the intercooler and oil. Hence, you're going to heatsoak a lot faster, and a lot worse than an untuned car, perhaps leaving the chipped car with ~ the same amount of power as a stock car due to boost and timing being yanked due to astronomical IATs.... That was my thought.... Not trying to be Billy Mays here and just sell product :P

NOTE: I am *not* bashing the V3, or saying its not good for the track, lest anyone read into what I am saying too much. The above goes for ANY tune. I personally run a ProCEDE FWIW.

This sounds about right, among the other factors.

[timtech]

I'm a fair driver and I was spanked a couple weeks ago by a Cayenne and many Miata's (spec level). HP isn't the fastest way around the track, it's being able to carry the speed up to and through turns - and I was running a tune.

Being a digital HP driver is not the fastest way around a track - bottom line...

[ar design]

Originally Posted by timtech

I'm a fair driver and I was spanked a couple weeks ago by a Cayenne and many Miata's (spec level). HP isn't the fastest way around the track, it's being able to carry the speed up to and through turns - and I was running a tune.

Being a digital HP driver is not the fastest way around a track - bottom line...

So true