[OpenFlash]

Hi guys,
Just a little example of what the Procede can do with respect to timing control. This is just to address some claims made by others for no apparent reason to justify God know what lol.

Right now, I only have access to our n55. But that works out quite well because its FBO/catless and the turbo spools up much faster than anything I've seen on an n54. It runs also runs a Rev2.5. So it will be a good platform to test the ability of the Procede to apply big timing corrections in reaction to sudden increases in engine load/boost. These tests can be conducted by anyone who feels so inclined. In this test I set up the ignition map as such:



8 deg is the somewhat arbitrary maximum retard amount for the current N55 firmware. For those who understand timing maps (load/kpa vs RPM), you'll know this map is quite ridiculous. But it should prove a point. Then I did a couple of minutes of logging while driving like a lunatic. Sudden throttle openings, revving to redline with automatic and manual 7DCT upshifts, etc,. Pretty much all I can do to induce sudden changes of load:



Here's a highly zoomed-in close up showing how the Procede's ignition correction kept up with a sudden increase in engine load:



In this close-up, 0psi to full boost took approx 0.35 seconds. During this time, the Procede transitioned from 0 deg to 8 deg of retard. It followed the change in load perfectly with no catch-up. As you can see in the datalog, this test was repeated 7 times at different engine speeds, in different gears. No codes. No hiccups. No issues other than the car being slow and reasonably unresponsive under boost from running such a low absolute advance curve.

We spent a lot of time developing our ignition control code and we are quite proud of it. Not only is it diagnostically invisible under retard conditions, it's also transparent when advancing timing (which is a bit trickier to do successfully). Our biggest test to date was what we have done with the e90 m3's S65. At WOT (with meth), we are advancing timing by 5-8 deg at engine speeds up to 8500. And that is with a reluctor crank sensor that generates dual inverted sine waves. That's a tougher test than anything that we will ever face with a relatively low revving n54/n55 platforms.

Next week when i get back to CA, I'll conduct some test specific to the n54 (fuel system limits and AFR targeting speed). I'll use a customer car since our own 335i (n54) car will be unavailable

[FastBimmerN54]

I wonder what the haters will say after you prove them wrong...

[vasillalov]

LOL,
I read the title and (for a moment) I thought you went to a mental institution and they let you play with one of the patients there... LOL

[XPO186]

where's the shop 3er?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by XPO186

where's the shop 3er?

Right now, still at East Bay BMW trying to get a replacement steering column approved. After that, its getting a full suspension overhaul and a cage so I stop getting kicked off of the drag strip

Originally Posted by vasillalov

LOL,
I read the title and (for a moment) I thought you went to a mental institution and they let you play with one of the patients there... LOL

[themyst]

Thanks for the info Shiv. Just to add to this, this is roughly a 12 psi boost target tapering to 10 psi up top, running 8 degrees of offset. Hardly enough boost to induce onset knock. Was meth turned on this run? You do understand 0.35 seconds is more than enough time to induce onset knock if you were attempting to run 18 psi, 12 AFRs and 3 degrees of ignition in the midrange on 93 octane pump gas.

I remember a distinct conversation I had with you preaching the possible side-effects of running methanol without a proper failsafe because of the small delay from when the methanol starts spraying and hits throttle body.

Would this not be the same issue?

Furthermore, "CAN Actual Ignition Advance" is a calculation, as much so as your AFR calculations which we have proven on more than instance to be inaccurate.

Can you map CPS offset to match the stage 2 curve at 18 psi tapering to 13 at redline, with 12 AFRs read off an external wideband along IAT logged, on pump gas, and post the log? I am genuinely curious.

As previously stated in Mike's CPS thread, in theory, CPS works. Run too much offset or advance and you may run into undesired side effects. If this weren't true, you would have allowed us to run 8 degrees of retard or advance as-is. The problem here is the fact the DME does not target the exact same curve every time, rendering CPS moot.

Just to provide a analogy for general consumption, you wouldn't want your Smartphone controlling your $2000 Macbook pro now, would you? You would want the Macbook pro to utilize itself instead of the inferior hardware. I don't see how this is any different.

Shiv, if you can dynamically offset or advance CPS as necessary to force the DME to run a specific requested timing curve, color me impressed. Problem is there is a huge danger in doing so since you cannot log ignition in multiple cylinders with your tune. But make it happen, I am sure your users would greatly appreciate it. That isn't the largest problem with your tune, but it would be a great start.

-edit I see these logs came from the N55. Show this in action on the N54 Procede. 8 degrees of retard and all.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by themyst

Thanks for the info Shiv. Just to add to this, this is roughly a 12 psi boost target tapering to 10 psi up top, running 8 degrees of offset. Hardly enough boost to induce onset knock. Was meth turned on this run?

The question at hand had nothing to do with knock. The claim was that running this amount of ignition retard wasn't possible without causing other issues (misfire, codes, etc,.) Clearly that is not the case.

You do understand 0.35 seconds is more than enough time to induce onset knock if you were attempting to run 18 psi, 12 AFRs and 3 degrees of ignition in the midrange on 93 octane pump gas.

You should re-read the thread. The .35s time it look to retard 8 deg was due to the fact it took .35s for load to go from min to max. If max load was 22psi and it only took .1s to make that load swing, the Procede's retard would keep up with it. From the perspective of a computer that operates in realm of Mhz, an engine with only 60 teeth per revolution is operating in slow motion.

I remember a distinct conversation I had with you preaching the possible side-effects of running methanol without a proper failsafe because of the small delay from when the methanol starts spraying and hits throttle body.

Would this not be the same issue?

Not really. The importance of a feed forward progressive meth tune is that you can allow for a tiny amount of spray time before you let the tune get fully aggressive. Just enough to get decent atomization/charge temp reduction. This is done by transitioning gradually to the aggressive tune as function of meth flow. Instead of running an aggressive tune all the time that triggers a fault after meth flow fails.

Furthermore, "CAN Actual Ignition Advance" is a calculation, as much so as your AFR calculations which we have proven on more than instance to be inaccurate.

CAN Actual Ign Adv is equal to CAN DME Ign Advance + Ign Correction. CAN DME Ign Adv is read from the CANbus and provided by the DME. Ignition Correction is controlled by the Procede which is fully aware of the phase shift is applying. This should be understood.

Can you map CPS offset to match the stage 2 curve at 18 psi tapering to 13 at redline, with 12 AFRs read off an external wideband along IAT logged, on pump gas, and post the log? I am genuinely curious.

As mentioned in the first post, that's another thread in itself. This thread is about ignition retard. Let's keep it that way.

As previously stated in Mike's CPS thread, in theory, CPS works. Run too much offset or advance and you may run into undesired side effects. If this weren't true, you would have allowed us to run 8 degrees of retard or advance as-is. The problem here is the fact the DME does not target the exact same curve every time, rendering CPS moot.

That's a strange statement. 8 deg is the limit because running more than that would be a complete waste of airflow/boost. The n55 stock tune already runs lowish nominal advance numbers as it is. We limit ranges the same we we limit advance to 2 degrees. Just to prevent anyone from making a big mistake by accident. Not because bigger corrections aren't possible. Ignition based traction control was retarding timing by as much as 15 deg at WOT. In both n54 and n55 applications. So clearly 8 deg isn't the limit.

Just to provide a analogy for general consumption, you wouldn't want your Smartphone controlling your $2000 Macbook pro now, would you? You would want the Macbook pro to utilize itself instead of the inferior hardware. I don't see how this is any different.

We aren't asking the Procede to do all the same work as the DME (coil charging, injector phase timing, diagnostic monitoring, knock analysis, etc,.). It's not suited for that because that was never the intention. We are asking it do a handful of routines that it is designed to do, very effectively, until the cows come home.

Shiv, if you can dynamically offset or advance CPS as necessary to force the DME to run a specific requested timing curve, color me impressed. Problem is there is a huge danger in doing so since you cannot log ignition in multiple cylinders with your tune. But make it happen, I am sure your users would greatly appreciate it. That isn't the largest problem with your tune, but it would be a great start.

Take a look at the recent datalogs from Procede cars. When not restricted by external constraints, they run a targeted ignition advance value that remains reasonable consistent/predictable. Yet the DME Ign Adv is highly variable. This is because the Procede Dynamically adjusts ignition correction to account for variation in the stock DME timing setpoint. That is what Dynamic Ignition Correction does.

-edit I see these logs came from the N55. Show this in action on the N54 Procede. 8 degrees of retard and all.

If you read my post, you'd see that this will have to wait until next week. Perhaps you should have read my entire post carefully before composing a counterpoint. It would have saved us both a lot of time.

Shiv

[stratos_335]

Finally Shiv we have some updates regarding timing control.

My timing doesn't get over 12 degrees. I would appreciate if I had 12 degrees at 5000 rpm and 14+ at 6000 rpm.

When I checked the ignition advance numbers of my map, I saw something like -4. I thought of changing them to -5 or -6 but I'm afraid of doing so.

I've sent you a mail regarding AFRs and timing. please check this because AFRs stay constant at 10.8 and ignition correction doesn't get over 12 degrees whatsoever.

[stratos_335]

And seriously, 25 degrees of ignition advance on a turbocharged engine?

[themyst]

Ok Shiv, waiting for N54 stock turbo logs.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by stratos_335

Finally Shiv we have some updates regarding timing control.

My timing doesn't get over 12 degrees. I would appreciate if I had 12 degrees at 5000 rpm and 14+ at 6000 rpm.

When I checked the ignition advance numbers of my map, I saw something like -4. I thought of changing them to -5 or -6 but I'm afraid of doing so.

I've sent you a mail regarding AFRs and timing. please check this because AFRs stay constant at 10.8 and ignition correction doesn't get over 12 degrees whatsoever.

In your logs, you are seeing 12.5 deg of advance at 6500rpm. If you revved it out to 7000rpm, you'd see 13.5 deg of adv. These numbers represent the max timing the stock DME tune will give you. So going over that will involve a positive timing correction. Since a rev.3 you can increase that value easily by simply adjusting your Map2 ignition correction table as such:



When meth is flowing, you will transition on to this map which adds up to 2 deg of timing at high RPM. This will get you around 15.5 deg of timing at wot at 7000rpm. It should be worth around 10-15whp at high RPM. This is definitely a FBO METH-ONLY tuning tweak. Not for pump gas or tune-only applications. Definitely on the aggressive side.

You can enlean your AFR mapping similarly by adjusting the AFR table. But try this ignition map tweak first as you will probably get what you are looking for.

Shiv

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by stratos_335

And seriously, 25 degrees of ignition advance on a turbocharged engine?

Yes, that's during cruise where the engine isn't turbocharged. During light load, it will be have just like a NA car and run upwards of 45-55 deg of advance. Only under boost will timing drop to lower values.

[Q4P]

Lol at thread title, great info though!

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by tibra1

He seems to be having fun ]

I don't find making fun at the handicapped to be even remotely entertaining. Those in the world who pose as self-proclaimed experts on subject matters that they clearly don't understand are far more entertaining.

[stratos_335]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

In your logs, you are seeing 12.5 deg of advance at 6500rpm. If you revved it out to 7000rpm, you'd see 13.5 deg of adv. These numbers represent the max timing the stock DME tune will give you. So going over that will involve a positive timing correction. Since a rev.3 you can increase that value easily by simply adjusting your Map2 ignition correction table as such:



When meth is flowing, you will transition on to this map which adds up to 2 deg of timing at high RPM. This will get you around 15.5 deg of timing at wot at 7000rpm. It should be worth around 10-15whp at high RPM. This is definitely a FBO METH-ONLY tuning tweak. Not for pump gas or tune-only applications. Definitely on the aggressive side.

You can enlean your AFR mapping similarly by adjusting the AFR table. But try this ignition map tweak first as you will probably get what you are looking for.

Shiv

Guys, what he said! I'll give it a try tonight, although my clutch started to slip. If my clutch doesn't slip, I'll post some logs.

There are two ways to make horsepower: You can add more ignition degrees or you can raise AFRs. Raising AFRs though increases combustion temperature.

Shiv, thank you a lot. I was waiting for that answer.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Yes, that's during cruise where the engine isn't turbocharged. During light load, it will be have just like a NA car and run upwards of 45-55 deg of advance. Only under boost will timing drop to lower values.

Oh, I didn't notice that it was without engine load.

Thanks again

[chrisw335i]

is this only possible with the rev.3, or can these values be tweaked with the rev.2. also what about the rev.2.5..been thinking about sending it in for the upgrade but still havent seen the advantages yet, as this would be the first episode to me where i can benefit from the upgrade

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

In your logs, you are seeing 12.5 deg of advance at 6500rpm. If you revved it out to 7000rpm, you'd see 13.5 deg of adv. These numbers represent the max timing the stock DME tune will give you. So going over that will involve a positive timing correction. Since a rev.3 you can increase that value easily by simply adjusting your Map2 ignition correction table as such:



When meth is flowing, you will transition on to this map which adds up to 2 deg of timing at high RPM. This will get you around 15.5 deg of timing at wot at 7000rpm. It should be worth around 10-15whp at high RPM. This is definitely a FBO METH-ONLY tuning tweak. Not for pump gas or tune-only applications. Definitely on the aggressive side.

You can enlean your AFR mapping similarly by adjusting the AFR table. But try this ignition map tweak first as you will probably get what you are looking for.

Shiv

[dzenno]

threads like these is why I keep coming back to this forum...i'd like to see 8degrees of ignition retard added through CPS using the procede without issues as well...i also seem to recall some posts a while back where this was being discussed and there was mention of issues/complexity when so much retard is introduced through CPS without taking other factors mentioned above into account...

As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather set the flash to run my preferred timing curve for a given octane than do it through CPS but at this point that is just solely based on preference and not any technical limitation of CPS that I personally know/understand...

[FastBimmerN54]

People cant take a joke on a thread title? Directly translated its non offensive. Wow.
Anywho...All there appears to be here is a difference on the way to tune a car. As said before there is more then one way to kill a chicken. There are better ways and good ways and not so great ways. These types of discussions really dont solve anything. The beauty and ugliness of thread wars and tuner wars is nobody really wins. You can beat the dead horse until there is nothing left.

[Overboost]

Shiv,
When tuning our motors, does the ignition timing influence the air fuel ratio in any way?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Overboost

Shiv,
When tuning our motors, does the ignition timing influence the air fuel ratio in any way?

Ignition advance has a big influence on fuel consumption, but not so much AFR which is regulated by a closed loop corrective fuel system. But if we were to hold injector on-time and airflow constant (open loop), an engine would often run slightly leaner the more ignition advance you feed it. This is because the fuel is burned more completely.

[stratos_335]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

In your logs, you are seeing 12.5 deg of advance at 6500rpm. If you revved it out to 7000rpm, you'd see 13.5 deg of adv. These numbers represent the max timing the stock DME tune will give you. So going over that will involve a positive timing correction. Since a rev.3 you can increase that value easily by simply adjusting your Map2 ignition correction table as such:



When meth is flowing, you will transition on to this map which adds up to 2 deg of timing at high RPM. This will get you around 15.5 deg of timing at wot at 7000rpm. It should be worth around 10-15whp at high RPM. This is definitely a FBO METH-ONLY tuning tweak. Not for pump gas or tune-only applications. Definitely on the aggressive side.

You can enlean your AFR mapping similarly by adjusting the AFR table. But try this ignition map tweak first as you will probably get what you are looking for.

Shiv

Originally Posted by stratos_335

Guys, what he said! I'll give it a try tonight, although my clutch started to slip. If my clutch doesn't slip, I'll post some logs.

There are two ways to make horsepower: You can add more ignition degrees or you can raise AFRs. Raising AFRs though increases combustion temperature.

Shiv, thank you a lot. I was waiting for that answer.



Oh, I didn't notice that it was without engine load.

Thanks again

I went out to take some logs with these settings.

OMG! The car is fantastic and pulls like hell until 7000 rpm. I have a lot of backfire when changing gears too.

Ignition retard hit 15.5 degrees as he said and i have more than 12 degrees from 5000 rpm. The AFRs are better and stay constant to 11.4 rather than 10.8 with the previous setup. The weather went chilly, my clutch did not slip and I still have that silly smile on my face.

Dyno time?

Here is the log:

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by stratos_335

I went out to take some logs with these settings.

OMG! The car is fantastic and pulls like hell until 7000 rpm. I have a lot of backfire when changing gears too.

Ignition retard hit 15.5 degrees as he said and i have more than 12 degrees from 5000 rpm. The AFRs are better and stay constant to 11.4 rather than 10.8 with the previous setup. The weather went chilly, my clutch did not slip and I still have that silly smile on my face.

Dyno time?

Here is the log:

Glad you like it Just remember that you are running a lot of boost. And now more ignition advance. I recommend running those settings with race gas AND meth. For pump and meth, I'd like to see lower boost (15-16psi).

What kind of meth kit are you running?

Shiv