[rjahl]

Hass,

If you have access to rapid prototyping I know an auto enthusiasts that has some 3D modeling skills.....

You probably have plenty of students that can do the job but I thought I should mention this.

I'm not sure about the plastics used in 3D printers. Can they withstand much heat?

[Taskmaster]

When you want something done....I was just sent these, and told I could post them:

To be blunt, the 3 stage intake doesnt do anything more than the 2 stage does, Most of the power is in the tune. The DISA valves really dont help low end tq at full load, the vanos and the valvetronic do 90% of the work. I'll send some dyno sheets your way tomorrow if you want to post or email them to anyone that wants to see there is no tq loss with the intake swap and a good tune.

Oh, and he has heaps of praise for AA (seriously) He was very careful to not step on AA's toes, stating that they are some of the best around and have a very good product, but as a racecar shop, they are looking to push the envelope.

This is an older dyno sheet from last year I have on a computer at home. This is the N54 intake with a beta mild tune with no changes to the vanos and valvetronic (just fuel / timing adjustments/ rev limiter set to 7500rpm) it was the first WOT pull i did on the car after the swap vs AA all out tune with the 3 stage intake, changes to the Vanos, valvetronic and DISA valves. Once again, this is not comparing us vs AA, this is more to show a base tune with the n54 intake vs the best tune out there for the 3 stage intake.

[hassmaschine]

Originally Posted by rjahl

Hass,

If you have access to rapid prototyping I know an auto enthusiasts that has some 3D modeling skills.....

You probably have plenty of students that can do the job but I thought I should mention this.

I'm not sure about the plastics used in 3D printers. Can they withstand much heat?

I actually do 3D modeling for a living, haha. But I do big industrial stuff, not like small mechanical pieces. it's not my machine but I'm sure they would let me or a student use it for something like that. Usually they make stuff that actually has no purpose, just for looks etc.

I think it depends on the plastic. Some yes, others no. Maybe the part of the stock manifold I plan to use would act as a phenolic spacer and keep temps down. but hopefully I could use something that could simply glue on the stub of a cut up single stage manifold.

[631twentyeighteye]

I've asked for a dyno to see what the curve is like up there. Also wondering how the engine will hold up over time with 8K revs.

Who's gonna be the first to try intake horns with their tune?

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by 631twentyeighteye

I've asked for a dyno to see what the curve is like up there. Also wondering how the engine will hold up over time with 8K revs.

Who's gonna be the first to try intake horns with their tune?

He said the VVT maps are the same, so there is more left in it potentially. 7500 seems so high though, I'm scared!

[631twentyeighteye]

I'm strongly debating doing at the least an n54 manifold swap in the future. Granted i'll stick with AA and likely go for a custom remote dyno tune.

I'm okay with the losses over the curve for whats on top. Especially as the car is transitioned to a play car instead of a daily.

I really believe they can handle the extra revs. BMW is known for high RPM's and also for large safety margins. I've seen euro dyno's of n52's pulling 7.5-8k for dozens of pulls. I'll see if i can find that video.

edit: found it. Skip to around 2:25

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by 631twentyeighteye

I'm strongly debating doing at the least an n54 manifold swap in the future. Granted i'll stick with AA and likely go for a custom remote dyno tune.

I'm okay with the losses over the curve for whats on top. Especially as the car is transitioned to a play car instead of a daily.

I really believe they can handle the extra revs. BMW is known for high RPM's and also for large safety margins. I've seen euro dyno's of n52's pulling 7.5-8k for dozens of pulls. I'll see if i can find that video.

edit: found it. Skip to around 2:25

Yeah, not so sure that's for me, this is still my DD!

[631twentyeighteye]

Entirely understandable. I won't so long as i'm using it to commute but once that's done or substantially less i'll likely do it. Finding n54 manifolds is quite easy and it seems that they're half the price of a 3 stage. n52 throttle body bolts right on and everything bolts on as factory?

[SDemetris]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

I actually do 3D modeling for a living, haha. But I do big industrial stuff, not like small mechanical pieces. it's not my machine but I'm sure they would let me or a student use it for something like that. Usually they make stuff that actually has no purpose, just for looks etc.

I think it depends on the plastic. Some yes, others no. Maybe the part of the stock manifold I plan to use would act as a phenolic spacer and keep temps down. but hopefully I could use something that could simply glue on the stub of a cut up single stage manifold.

I have a model for a 4 cylinder intake manifold optimized for 3d printing. Shouldnt be too hard to change for an inline 6... Ford printed it for us, but in the end it broke when the engine backfired. I believe it was a photopolymer resin type print... lmk if anyone wants it and what file format you want. It was modeled in solidworks

[kobeballer96]

Look what I started lol. I'm so glad BPC is taking it to the next level and sharing all info with us. The little N52 isn't so bad after all!

[hassmaschine]

Originally Posted by SDemetris

I have a model for a 4 cylinder intake manifold optimized for 3d printing. Shouldnt be too hard to change for an inline 6... Ford printed it for us, but in the end it broke when the engine backfired. I believe it was a photopolymer resin type print... lmk if anyone wants it and what file format you want. It was modeled in solidworks

the port shape & spacing is probably way different. All I really need to make is a trumpet that I can glue onto the runners of a stock manifold with the plenum cut off. maybe the trumpet shape would be helpful though?

The N52 runners are way longer than they appear, because the injector holes are actually cast into the head so there's another 4-5" from the manifold gasket to the valves. The runners on the manifold are about another 8" and that doesn't include the path from the TB to the plenum (which is quite long). The question is what is the best length to use for 8000rpm..

[Taskmaster]

Unless something big comes from the N54 manifold tuning (and I hope so) the N52 manifold seems like the best overall compromise for power/daily driving. I'd love to have numbers like what they got from the hacked up manifold, Alfa N tune, but....

[bimmerquick43321]

too bad that for the auto trans you can't raise the limiter, well I guess you can, but none does it...

[hassmaschine]

I think you can but it would only work in "manual" mode. changing shift points would require hacking the transmission computer. I've never even seen a binary from one..

I'm not sure I'd want to turn an AT to 8k though. They often fail in just normal use. The solution of course is to never buy an AT BMW.

[SDemetris]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

the port shape & spacing is probably way different. All I really need to make is a trumpet that I can glue onto the runners of a stock manifold with the plenum cut off. maybe the trumpet shape would be helpful though?

The N52 runners are way longer than they appear, because the injector holes are actually cast into the head so there's another 4-5" from the manifold gasket to the valves. The runners on the manifold are about another 8" and that doesn't include the path from the TB to the plenum (which is quite long). The question is what is the best length to use for 8000rpm..

I can send you the trumpet shape.. I think they did some sort of CFD on it at some point.. not really sure, it was made a while ago

I could also CNC a few.. I should have some time over thanksgiving to chill and work on some personal projects

[Three_thirty_I]

Sorry if I have missed this, only been scanning through this thread. But, isn't the Valvetronic system inherently inefficient from 6500 rpm onwards? So having the engine rev past this is unnecessary risk for the engine? Or is this then no longer the case with the N54 intake and the software mods?

I would be terrified of seeing my car's rev count dip into the red like in that vid! Certainly not for a daily driving car. Okay, will "spectate" some more and see what turn up here.

[hassmaschine]

There's probably extra friction at higher RPM. So, what did the engineers mean by lower efficiency then? lower fuel efficiency? Lower mechanical efficiency? It doesn't appear to be lower volumetric efficiency. The valvetronic mechanism is essentially static at full throttle, so it can't be that either.

Naturally it will take some miles of the engine's lifespan to rev it like that, but there are N52s pushing close to 300k. I'd put up with a 200k lifespan if I could tag an 8k limiter once in a while.

[Three_thirty_I]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

There's probably extra friction at higher RPM. So, what did the engineers mean by lower efficiency then? lower fuel efficiency? Lower mechanical efficiency? It doesn't appear to be lower volumetric efficiency. The valvetronic mechanism is essentially static at full throttle, so it can't be that either.

Naturally it will take some miles of the engine's lifespan to rev it like that, but there are N52s pushing close to 300k. I'd put up with a 200k lifespan if I could tag an 8k limiter once in a while.

To be honest, they probably mostly mean fuel efficiency, but the article that I remember reading with regards to this, then followed on with that statement saying that "this is why no BMW M division engines will use Valvetronic" - eating words, because don't the newer M division engines now use this too?

[631twentyeighteye]

Personally i'd go for a 7.5k limit unless there really is more power to be had even further which i doubt since i'll likely be keeping the throttle body and intake.

If/when i go this route i'll be sure to make a thread to keep everyone in the loop. The soonest it will be is next summer. Too much commuting to sacrifice the low end any sooner.

[rjahl]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

yeah I don't think it makes sense unless you DIY. And I'd expect a torque loss at low RPM.

What drop off are you talking about? the typical "wall" at redline? that is part of the tune so it should be possible to flatten it out. VE will still drop off at some point but the stock tune makes it far worse than it needs to be.

also, at least some of the power gain is from ditching the TB & MAF, neither of which are really required since the DME controls VE almost directly through vanos & valvetronic.

I have access to a 3D printer at the tech school, my idea is to make some sort of adapter for a CSL replica airbox to bolt up to the N52 head. But that's more of my own personal preference, and I really want it for the sound..

BTW, rjahl, that 2.5si tune is really aggressive. I ended up copying parts of it into my own tune to see what it does. The ignition timing is even more advanced than the aftermarket tunes I've seen, and the intake vanos tuning is way more aggressive. The disa transitions are also quite different, as are the sport switch settings. I'd like to see a dyno of one!

the max intake retard parameter is still set the same as the other cars I've seen (122, not 120), but still with it set at 125 in the maps I want to try it. It would be easy to verify by looking at the actual vanos position vs the target in Testo.

I tried changing the intake spread map only and it does not work. I changed the last cell to 125, Logs show spread maxes out at 120. If it's going to work, you will need to change the limit as well.

[hassmaschine]

the odd thing is both the 2.5si and the 330i have the same limit, so how can it retard it further? are we sure it's the same actuator? Why would BMW have put 125 degrees in the last cell if it can only do 120?

FWIW, the disa transitions for the 2.5si do not seem to work very well on the 330i. it feels really flat. if I had a dyno I'd know for sure, but I'm guessing the 2.5si is a smaller engine, so the resonance frequencies are a little different.

[mike-y]

Looking at the dyno, the N54 manifold shows a loss in torque up to about 6600 rpm. Even if you could tune it more, there is up to a 20 ft/lb deficit in places compared to the 3 stage IM. I don't think you would be able to make that up.

Even if you could extend the rev range to 8k, you are still only talking about an advantage for 1200 rpm, so it's still only a limited advantage, and may not be worth it in the end. I think you will need more displacement to really take advantage of the S54 manifold. bore out the motor to 3.3-3.6L and I think this manifold would really shine.

it reminds me of when I was tuning hondas. everyone wanted to slap the Integra Type R manifold on their B16 engines (1.6L). The manifold only made more power above 7500 rpm. for a street car, it was less than ideal, and was actually slower in most circumstances.

even on the track you would have to rev to over 9000 rpm to make good use of it, and even then the torque loss lower in the rev range meant you couldn't pull out of corners as quickly.

but as soon as you increased the displacement, like on a 2.0L block, there were power increases almost all the way through the rev range, and the manifold worked really well.

Had one on my 2.0L civic, and it made 230+ whp. but on my 1.6L, it would have hurt more than helped.