[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by raysspl

0 podium finishes. Damn

It's a long season, and this is a brand new car. IMSA SCC just happens to start the season with a 24-hour race, which is kind of nuts when you think about it. The fact that one of the M6 GTLM cars finished on the lead lap in their very first endurance race proves that BMW had their shit together. Look at what happened to the Ford GTs.

[Boss330]

Nice onboard video. Car seems to have pace and overtakes a lot of cars (don't know which classes that ran at Daytona).

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Nice onboard video. Car seems to have pace and overtakes a lot of cars (don't know which classes that ran at Daytona).

They had their moments, for sure. A lot of it is driver talent though. The BMW teams were monsters on the restarts. There were several occasions where BMW drivers led following a restart.

When working in the infield, the M6 did great. It was on the oval where they were getting worked over.

[bradleyland]

The #100 car actually had the better pace throughout most of the race. It's a real shame the car was taken out by a brake rotor failure, because I think those guys had a shot. Luhr must have had a real code brown moment when the bonnet went skyward. Look at the destruction.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

They had their moments, for sure. A lot of it is driver talent though. The BMW teams were monsters on the restarts. There were several occasions where BMW drivers led following a restart.

When working in the infield, the M6 did great. It was on the oval where they were getting worked over.

Is this what you mean by "getting worked over"?

The Vette definitely doesn't just fly past the M6 in front on the oval. It has the advantage of having a tow from the M6, but still doesn't just fly by it... On the contrary, the #100 car definitely seem to have good pace, also compared with the Vette. Actually, when the Vette pulls out of the tow, it seems to lose the slight top speed advantage it has when it is in the tow of the M6. A very promising start.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Is this what you mean by "getting worked over"?

The Vette definitely doesn't just fly past the M6 in front on the oval. It has the advantage of having a tow from the M6, but still doesn't just fly by it...

I don't have any clips of it, but I stayed up until 2 AM watching the race. There were two occasions that really stood out to me. Both were on the oval.

1) The #911 (may have been the #912) car pulled out from behind the #100 car out of the bus stop, just inches off the M6's bumper, and pulled away like the M6 was standing still.

2) The #25 car got absolutely walked by a Huracan GTD on the tri-oval.

It's certainly possible that both of these events occurred during fuel conservation, but have a look at the drivers' comments. I think every one of them remarked about the top speed issue.

[bradleyland]

Also, if you watch that clip you posted, you can watch the Vette close a several car gap multiple times, and very nearly pull off an outside pass on the oval, which is the longer way around.

This is spec racing, so we're not talking about pulls like you'll see in standing mile races. A few mph is significant in endurance races. IMO, they have to figure that out if the M6 is going to be competitive at the longer circuits.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by RMG

...the M6 is a brand new car or project if you wish. Same thing for Ferrari 488 and Porsche RSR (the RSR engine is not new though) , all these are new cars. The Corvette on the other hand is not. Still was "beaten" by the "old" Porsche last year. Wait for a couple more races...

If you watched the race it was during the very early morning that the #68 Ferrari 488 had some serious speed. It was when the #911 Porsche RSR past it, that it started falling back. I believe the #68 Ferrari was leading the GTLM class. The fight between the two was pretty good.

Yes, the M6 is a new car, and it may take time to work the bugs out, just like the Ford GT, but did it show some promise in speed like the 488 or the Ford GT?

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

You guys gotta understand that the selection of the base car has far more to do with marketing purposes than it does the car's design/potential. That's the entire reason manufacturers race: marketing.

There is no more run-what-you-brung racing outside of some of the insane unlimited hillclimb races. Anything FIA, ACO, IMSA, etc is homologated, regulated, and completely controlled. These cars have so much aero on them, their base shape really doesn't matter much. 99% of the drag is a result of downforce producing aero, not the car's basic shape.

BMW went with the M4 in DTM, so they've got an M4 on the race track. ALthough, I do find it interesting that they chose to field the M4 in a series without street-car-based homologation requirements. The reasons for that are anyone's guess, but if I were building a turbocharged race car, I'd do exactly what BMW did: field the larger displacement engine in the series requiring street-car specifications, and run the other in the series where you're building to race-spec, and can avoid having to boost the crap out of my powerplant.

I wouldn't want to be running a 3.0L I6 turbo at Le Mans. Ford clearly has their work cut out for them, and they have an extra 500cc of displacement to work with.

Right but someone other than BMW is spending $$ while racing the M6. The drivers want to win. I'd get it if it were an M6 only league

[Matski]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

You guys gotta understand that the selection of the base car has far more to do with marketing purposes than it does the car's design/potential. That's the entire reason manufacturers race: marketing.

There is no more run-what-you-brung racing outside of some of the insane unlimited hillclimb races. Anything FIA, ACO, IMSA, etc is homologated, regulated, and completely controlled. These cars have so much aero on them, their base shape really doesn't matter much. 99% of the drag is a result of downforce producing aero, not the car's basic shape.

BMW went with the M4 in DTM, so they've got an M4 on the race track. ALthough, I do find it interesting that they chose to field the M4 in a series without street-car-based homologation requirements. The reasons for that are anyone's guess, but if I were building a turbocharged race car, I'd do exactly what BMW did: field the larger displacement engine in the series requiring street-car specifications, and run the other in the series where you're building to race-spec, and can avoid having to boost the crap out of my powerplant.

I see what you're getting at, but I disagree with some of your conclusions.

They didn't pick the M6 for marketing, they picked it because they didn't have any other competitive, commercially sensible choice.

M4 or M6, what else?

The 4.4 TTV8 will always to better in any GT series regs because the larger the displacement and reliance on Turbo's, the less the BoP and reliability issues affect it... so the M6 is a better GT car, simple. I think I'm right in saying that a 3.0 TT would be the smallest engine in most international GT-classes by some way, and moving from the old M3's 4.0 based engine to the GTS's 4.4 for the Z4 GT3 was no coincidence.

The M4 DTM is an entirely different situation. The fact is they've got to put coupe bodywork on it, doesn't matter what... it's a Dallara carbon tub underneath.. But since the cars it's up against (and ballasted against and BoP'd against) are in the 3-er/4-er segment.. what would be the benefit of using a 6-er there? To show the world it's slower than a C-class, or an A5? The DTM doesn't use anything from the production car... it just doesn't matter... They all agree to use cars from the same segment, and they're happy.

They have the M235i Racing Cup on track, they have the M4 DTM and they have the M6 GT3... it works from a marketing perspective, you're right.. but it's also the only technically logical set-up too. What else could they do?

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by Matski

I see what you're getting at, but I disagree with some of your conclusions.

They didn't pick the M6 for marketing, they picked it because they didn't have any other competitive, commercially sensible choice.

M4 or M6, what else?

The 4.4 TTV8 will always to better in any GT series regs because the larger the displacement and reliance on Turbo's, the less the BoP and reliability issues affect it... so the M6 is a better GT car, simple. I think I'm right in saying that a 3.0 TT would be the smallest engine in most international GT-classes by some way, and moving from the old M3's 4.0 based engine to the GTS's 4.4 for the Z4 GT3 was no coincidence.

The M4 DTM is an entirely different situation. The fact is they've got to put coupe bodywork on it, doesn't matter what... it's a Dallara carbon tub underneath.. But since the cars it's up against (and ballasted against and BoP'd against) are in the 3-er/4-er segment.. what would be the benefit of using a 6-er there? To show the world it's slower than a C-class, or an A5? The DTM doesn't use anything from the production car... it just doesn't matter... They all agree to use cars from the same segment, and they're happy.

They have the M235i Racing Cup on track, they have the M4 DTM and they have the M6 GT3... it works from a marketing perspective, you're right.. but it's also the only technically logical set-up too. What else could they do?

So basically, BMW has gone Sports car racing in the GTLM class with no dedicated sports car.
Going up against a proven Corvette program (shame about the Viper program), a lethal Porsche team, and a speedy Ferrari team.

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by Matski

I see what you're getting at, but I disagree with some of your conclusions.

They didn't pick the M6 for marketing, they picked it because they didn't have any other competitive, commercially sensible choice.

M4 or M6, what else?

The 4.4 TTV8 will always to better in any GT series regs because the larger the displacement and reliance on Turbo's, the less the BoP and reliability issues affect it... so the M6 is a better GT car, simple. I think I'm right in saying that a 3.0 TT would be the smallest engine in most international GT-classes by some way, and moving from the old M3's 4.0 based engine to the GTS's 4.4 for the Z4 GT3 was no coincidence.

The M4 DTM is an entirely different situation. The fact is they've got to put coupe bodywork on it, doesn't matter what... it's a Dallara carbon tub underneath.. But since the cars it's up against (and ballasted against and BoP'd against) are in the 3-er/4-er segment.. what would be the benefit of using a 6-er there? To show the world it's slower than a C-class, or an A5? The DTM doesn't use anything from the production car... it just doesn't matter... They all agree to use cars from the same segment, and they're happy.

They have the M235i Racing Cup on track, they have the M4 DTM and they have the M6 GT3... it works from a marketing perspective, you're right.. but it's also the only technically logical set-up too. What else could they do?

+1

I think you are spot on with your thinking. Honestly what other choice did they have? Building an engine program around the 4.4L block is what led them to use the M6. BMW never had any intentions of building an engine program around the S55 and M4. They would be fighting an uphill battle with the little 3.0L. Sure they could have pulled the same sh*t, like running the V8 in the Z4 GTLM. But they would have gotten so much sh*t for trying to use 4.4L V8tt in a M4 chassis. Especially after their constant preaching of efficient dynamics. Plus it would again mean BMW would have to beg for more consessions to homologation rules.

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

So basically, BMW has gone Sports car racing in the GTLM class with no dedicated sports car.
Going up against a proven Corvette program (shame about the Viper program), a lethal Porsche team, and a speedy Ferrari team.

In a sense...yes.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

So basically, BMW has gone Sports car racing in the GTLM class with no dedicated sports car.
Going up against a proven Corvette program (shame about the Viper program), a lethal Porsche team, and a speedy Ferrari team.

You can look at it that way, but, it's a class built to regs. It doesn't really matter if the M6 is considered a proper sportscar or not. It's how GT racing works, and it's the reason why you can have a Mclaren 650, vs. a Bentley GT, vs. a BMW Z4 nose to tail up Eau Rouge at Spa. So long as they confirm to the regulations, and are engineered to the limits of the regulations they will be competitive whatever the base car was.

One of the area's BMW may be letting themselves down in, is (to save money) developing the GTLM off the GT3, with as little effort as possible. Other's have built GTLM's from the ground up. This is because BMW's focus is on selling customer GT3 race-cars.

As has already been said, the Vette's are built to be fast at Le Mans, this helps them with Daytona's high speed banking. The M6's are draggy, but that's because they've got more inherent downforce, on the twistier tracks we should see them closer.

[scrammer]

Price point is the reason for the M6 ... All the cars in the GTLM paddock are more than $100k plus ... Porsche, Ferrari, Aston Martin, etc!!!

Why pop an M4 in there!?!?!?!?!?!!?

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Matski

I see what you're getting at, but I disagree with some of your conclusions.

They didn't pick the M6 for marketing, they picked it because they didn't have any other competitive, commercially sensible choice.

M4 or M6, what else?

The 4.4 TTV8 will always to better in any GT series regs because the larger the displacement and reliance on Turbo's, the less the BoP and reliability issues affect it... so the M6 is a better GT car, simple. I think I'm right in saying that a 3.0 TT would be the smallest engine in most international GT-classes by some way, and moving from the old M3's 4.0 based engine to the GTS's 4.4 for the Z4 GT3 was no coincidence.

The M4 DTM is an entirely different situation. The fact is they've got to put coupe bodywork on it, doesn't matter what... it's a Dallara carbon tub underneath.. But since the cars it's up against (and ballasted against and BoP'd against) are in the 3-er/4-er segment.. what would be the benefit of using a 6-er there? To show the world it's slower than a C-class, or an A5? The DTM doesn't use anything from the production car... it just doesn't matter... They all agree to use cars from the same segment, and they're happy.

They have the M235i Racing Cup on track, they have the M4 DTM and they have the M6 GT3... it works from a marketing perspective, you're right.. but it's also the only technically logical set-up too. What else could they do?

Yeah, I think we agree actually. Re-reading my post, I see that some of my conclusions were in conflict. In one breath I say that the M6 was chose for marketing, but then I circle back to the issues with using a 3.0L I6tt in a series where everyone else is closer to 4.0L.

Likewise with DTM, that was more or less my point: that BMW needn't worry about the road car spec, because DTM cars aren't at all related to their road counterpart outside of styling queues.

[bradleyland]

It's worth noting that the M6 isn't the only brick in GT racing. Mercedes still races the SLS GT3 in Europe, and it's plenty competitive. Didn't it win VLN Nurburgring in 2013 (or maybe 2012)?

[dc503]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

It's worth noting that the M6 isn't the only brick in GT racing. Mercedes still races the SLS GT3 in Europe, and it's plenty competitive. Didn't it win VLN Nurburgring in 2013 (or maybe 2012)?

Plus the Bentley's, a real truck of a racecar.

Post-Daytona, if BOP remains reasonably static, it bodes very well for Sebring and beyond for them. While they were down on top speed, it wasn't nearly as bad as the deficit the old Z4 GTLM's had.

[gbelton]

Thought to share some additional insight from BMW's perspective.

REF: http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/bm...ion-of-m6-gt3/

With the Z4 GTE in its final year in North America, BMW is aiming to homologate its new-for-2016 M6 GT3 for the GT Le Mans class of the TUDOR United SportsCar Championship.

Speaking to Sportscar365, BMW Motorsport director Jens Marquardt revealed the German manufacturer’s desire of continuing with a factory GTLM program, although it will hinge on whether a variant of its new GT3 car could compete in the class.

While not directly confirming its program, Marquardt admitted an initiative is underway.

“We have to see what solution we can find for the U.S.,” he told Sportscar365. “It’s not easy at the moment. We’re working on something. It’s still early days.

“It definitely has to be a target for us to continue with a factory program in the U.S. GTLM will be ideal, but hopefully we will see.”

While BMW developed the Z4 GTE specifically to ACO specifications, a potential M6 variant would likely only be eligible in the TUDOR Championship under national homologation.

It’s understood Bentley is pursuing a similar IMSA-only homologation with its Continental GT3 for next year, made possible thanks to both the Bentley and BMW’s turbocharged engines being able to accept sonic air restrictors.


BMW’s Marquardt said they’ve been in discussions with IMSA and the ACO on the best way to move forward, although revealing that it would be “quite unrealistic” for them to develop the car to two completely separate platforms.

“[The M6] would be the best thing to have, although we would not be able to develop a complete separate GTLM car,” he said.

“Honestly speaking, that’s why we were so positive about the [GT] convergence.

“To spend an enormous amount of money and effort on a car that’s running in one [series] only is not really efficient. At the same time, you don’t have any benefits, one from the other.”

Marquardt, meanwhile, has reaffirmed BMW’s focus on the GT ranks, with the manufacturer not actively pursing a LMP2 program under the proposed new-for-2017 regulations.

It follows reports of BMW evaluating a factory LMP1 entry for the FIA World Endurance Championship in 2017.

“What we found was racing, and the M6 is a very good example, is that featuring M products in our programs is the best way for us as a brand,” he said.

“It’s the strongest letter in the world, M. We can showcase our products and to get customers and fans, the direct relationship between the race car and the car that you can buy [is important].

“That’s working very well for us and is well received. That route will definitely continue.”

However, he hasn’t ruled out a possible engine supply program for the TUDOR Championship, should an existing platform easily fit to the new regulations.

“We’re developing the new engine for DTM, which is a four-cylinder direct-injection turbo engine,” Marquardt said.

“If that powertrain would fit into something, it’s something we’d think about. But we’d for sure not develop anything specifically for application in a prototype.”

[mookie45]

Originally Posted by BeachsideF30

Not only did the M6 look like a bus going around the track it also made a very underwhelming noise too, almost a whisper past the grand stands vs. the corvettes and corvette powered cars.

+1

Seriously, why were the BMW's so quiet?

Every car had a very distinctive noise. The Corvette's and the Porsche's sounded orgasmic. The BMW's sounded like wind blowing in my ear

[Matski]

Originally Posted by mookie45

+1

Seriously, why were the BMW's so quiet?

Every car had a very distinctive noise. The Corvette's and the Porsche's sounded orgasmic. The BMW's sounded like wind blowing in my ear

Turbo vs. Naturally aspirated.

[mookie45]

Originally Posted by Matski

Turbo vs. Naturally aspirated.

Yes, the sound quality of an NA car sounds better but the Ford GT's, 488's and the Delta Wing sounded so much louder/better than the BMW, all in which are turbo.