Mixing E85 into 91 Octane? [Running PROcede]

SINGH_ · 12-19-2013, 12:46 AM

I have been browsing through older threads and saw quite a few people mixing E85 into their 91 Octane (In Cali)...

I'm a bit confused, can we all do this to increase the octane level of out fuel? What issues/safe? What ratios? Gains?

My mods as of right now:
PROcede Running 7-29 Autotuning (Always running in MAP 1)
DCI
Chargepipe/TiAL
[2009 E92 N54]

Thanks everyone!

SINGH_ · 12-19-2013, 01:19 AM

Is it 30/70 Ratios? That's what i've been reading...

If we have a 16.xx gallon tank, it would be safe to say to achieve a level of 30% I would need to add 4.8 gallons of E85 (if there is no pre-existing E85/91 blend in the tank.)

I would like to run it mainly before going to the track: Would I be able to add 2.4 gallons of E85 and fill it my tank to the 1/2 Level with 91 Octane [8 gallons of 95 Octane Fuel], run in Map 1(or 2?) letting it Auto-tune for the 30 mile route to the track...

secretsquirrel · 12-19-2013, 07:55 AM

Use the calculator on the bottom of this page labeled "Octane result from blending 2 fuels".
http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html

For safety's sake, assume the blend of e85 is about e70 because of reformulation for winter blends. A ratio of about 3/7 is usually pretty good for most people and will likely not max out your fuel. You will need to log your fuel trims to determine your car's fueling limitations.

I would manually set my timing and boost. Set one map for regular gas, and map 2 for e85. Of course, the map for e85 will have increased timing and boost. Another option is to run the e85 maps from Vishnu's site. Be careful to never run the e85 map while running regular gas.

Enjoy the corn.

SINGH_ · 12-19-2013, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by secretsquirrel

Use the calculator on the bottom of this page labeled "Octane result from blending 2 fuels".
http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html

For safety's sake, assume the blend of e85 is about e70 because of reformulation for winter blends. A ratio of about 3/7 is usually pretty good for most people and will likely not max out your fuel. You will need to log your fuel trims to determine your car's fueling limitations.

I would manually set my timing and boost. Set one map for regular gas, and map 2 for e85. Of course, the map for e85 will have increased timing and boost. Another option is to run the e85 maps from Vishnu's site. Be careful to never run the e85 map while running regular gas.

Enjoy the corn.

Thank you for the reply, I am not too experienced when it comes to tuning - just picked up the car less than a month ago... and installed the procede unit a weeks back.

So my autotuning maps wouldn't be able to support a 30 percent mix of E85?

Is there anyway I can make modifications to certain parameters in Map 2 on the user tuning interface to make it better suited for the fuel blend, looking to keep the autotuning enabled (inexperienced tuner) and the same map set (because I would be only fueling with E85 time to time).

Thanks

deathbunny · 12-19-2013, 12:20 PM

E20 should be enough to bring 91 oct up to 93. When I was doing this I was mixing between 2-3 gal per tank depending on how empty it was. Don't forget to log to make sure its happy.

enrita · 12-19-2013, 03:26 PM

Its not about octane but higher knock resistance with ethanol and direct injection. E30 is fine for the oem fuel system . U need to log both map 1 and 2 and see how timings look like

SINGH_ · 12-19-2013, 09:27 PM

What channels should I log? Logging it tonight for both Map 1 and Map 2, will post images and the datalog files tonight

Thanks for the help everyone!

froop · 12-19-2013, 11:00 PM

Do the 7-29 autotune maps adjust for E85? I was under the impression it was more just for the mods you were running but I could be wrong.

You could try running the 50% E85 9-10 aggressive maps.

I'm running the 9-10 pump fuel stage 3 maps and I'm FBO with meth. I hit a max of 16-17psi with start boost on 65% and still pulled 309.9kW on a dyno dynamics roller. Stock dyno was 186kW. I'd love to try the E85 maps but gotta get my brakes working properly first haha.

froop · 12-19-2013, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E92 N54

What channels should I log? Logging it tonight for both Map 1 and Map 2, will post images and the datalog files tonight

Thanks for the help everyone!

You want to log RPM, boost, CAN actual throttle, CAN ignition advance and bank 1+2 fuel trims. Possibly AFR for both banks as well.

Mit_Boost · 12-20-2013, 12:08 AM

Ethanol will allow for a much more aggressive tune to be run safely. Just make sure to monitor your fuel trims (Long & Short term) to make sure you're not maxing them out and running the motor lean.

I'm not sure how the PROcede reads AFR (if it converts Lambda to AFR), but you'll want to keep it under 13 at all times.

SINGH_ · 12-20-2013, 12:28 AM

looks like i missed a few channels, let me know if this can give you guys in idea if im running at safe levels:

SINGH_ · 12-20-2013, 12:40 AM

MAP 1 Datalog (30/70 Blend):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7M...it?usp=sharing

MAP 2 Datalog (30/70 Blend):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7M...it?usp=sharing

SINGH_ · 12-20-2013, 01:06 AM

Also, I saw alot of people talking about maxing fuel trims and setting open loop/OL to 100%. What does OL do, mine is set to 0 as it came in the downloaded map.

froop · 12-20-2013, 01:42 AM

It's no good. Boost is all over the shop and fuel trims are maxed.

There are 3 possible causes.

1. 7-29 maps were not designed for E85 blends.
2. You need to raise the OL fueling. What is it at now?
3. Your fuel system is tired and cannot cope with an E20/30 blend.

Most likely it is one of the first 2.

Mit_Boost · 12-20-2013, 11:34 AM

I hate PROcede logs, but I can easily read that the Fuel Trims are maxed (=34%) and that boost curve is all over.

Take logs on just pump gas and see how they compare. If your fuel trims (Short or Long) are in the 20s on Pump, you've got a fueling problem that needs to be addressed before you run E85 again.

SINGH_ · 12-20-2013, 11:57 AM

Oh nooo, they didn't look right to me either but wasn't sure.

My OL fueling is at 0%, should I change it? 100%?

Let me know then I can datalog the vehicle again for you guys. Would/how would the OL fueling help?

All the help is much appropriated!

SINGH_ · 12-20-2013, 02:07 PM

Just did some new runs with the OL Fueling set to 100%, what do you guys think?

SINGH_ · 12-20-2013, 02:21 PM

the files:

MAP 1 Datalog (12-20-13):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7M...it?usp=sharing

MAP 2 Datalog (12-20-13):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7M...it?usp=sharing

SINGH_ · 12-20-2013, 02:49 PM

Air/Fuel Ratios seem a bit better, but the Fuel Trims still seem maxed... is everything within safe levels to drive around/get on the throttle? is my OL set too high? how would would I go about fixing my fuel trims?

Doesn't seem like the Vishnu crew gives support on the forums much anymore, everything seems juice box dominated. I've shot them email asking for support. Hope fully they chime in and help a customer out.

froop · 12-20-2013, 05:14 PM

Your fuel trims are atill maxed and the AFR and boost is still all over the place. It's still ok good.

My serious suggestion for you would be to use the 9-10 aggressive E85 maps on their stock settings. It requires a 50% E85 to pump fuel ratio but you'd be better off doing that than messing around with old maps which have likely been fiddled with.

froop · 12-20-2013, 05:28 PM

This is by ok means a direct comparison to your car but it's an example of a nicer looking datalog.

http://datazap.me/u/froop/20131207-a...-6-7-8-9-10-11

This was running the OTS 9-10 Stage 3 Aggressive map. The only thing I changed on the user adjustable map was to turn on PWM meth, meth injection mode to 43, start boost map 2 to 65% and ignition correction to 100% as per the recommended settings.

As you can see, my boost curve is very smooth as are my AFT curves which start lean at around 14-15 at the beginning of the pull and gradually enrich down to around 11-12. My fuel trims are maxed for a bit but further into the pull they are well below.

I sent this to Vishnu and they advised me to increase start boost to 80% and increase OL fueling to 100% after which I'll datalog again. This should hopefully push map 2 boost targets closer to 18-19psi and stop fuel trims from maxing out. Once I'm happy with them I'll try out their E85 9-10 maps.

But yeah, as I said earlier, I believe your main problem is running either messed up 7-29 maps or you shouldn't be running those maps at all with E85 blends. Although an 50% E85 mix sounds a bit much, that's actually equivalent to an E42.5 mix which a healthy stock fuel system should be able to handle.

SINGH_ · 12-21-2013, 02:39 PM

Thank you for all the help froop, I stalked to Vishnu. They said not to run e85 with the 7-29 setup, so I diluted my mixture by adding 7 gal of 91 octane last night, plan on running the tank near dry and fueling back up to a full thank. Then I will be posting new datalogs so we can establish a solid base on the 7-29 tunes using just 91 octane. Then if everything looks solid, see how well vishnus 50/50 blend maps for me. I'm suspecting even the 7-29 trims on 91 will be giving me issues...

12-19-2013, 12:46 AM	#1
SINGH_ N54 E92 51 Rep 342 Posts Drives: 2009 BMW 335i Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Nor Cal iTrader: (1)	Mixing E85 into 91 Octane? [Running PROcede] I have been browsing through older threads and saw quite a few people mixing E85 into their 91 Octane (In Cali)... I'm a bit confused, can we all do this to increase the octane level of out fuel? What issues/safe? What ratios? Gains? My mods as of right now: PROcede Running 7-29 Autotuning (Always running in MAP 1) DCI Chargepipe/TiAL [2009 E92 N54] Thanks everyone! __________________ Light Bolt-ons, Tunes, & Methanol Injection: 12.30 @ 115mph [2.0 60ft on Street Tires] [91 Octane] 1.59 Seconds Faster than Stock [as of 05/29/2014] Previous Vehicle: '65 Chevelle [LSx 6.0L/4L80e]
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12-19-2013, 01:19 AM	#2
SINGH_ N54 E92 51 Rep 342 Posts Drives: 2009 BMW 335i Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Nor Cal iTrader: (1)	Is it 30/70 Ratios? That's what i've been reading... If we have a 16.xx gallon tank, it would be safe to say to achieve a level of 30% I would need to add 4.8 gallons of E85 (if there is no pre-existing E85/91 blend in the tank.) I would like to run it mainly before going to the track: Would I be able to add 2.4 gallons of E85 and fill it my tank to the 1/2 Level with 91 Octane [8 gallons of 95 Octane Fuel], run in Map 1(or 2?) letting it Auto-tune for the 30 mile route to the track... __________________ Light Bolt-ons, Tunes, & Methanol Injection: 12.30 @ 115mph [2.0 60ft on Street Tires] [91 Octane] 1.59 Seconds Faster than Stock [as of 05/29/2014] Previous Vehicle: '65 Chevelle [LSx 6.0L/4L80e] Last edited by SINGH_; 12-19-2013 at 01:29 AM..
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12-19-2013, 07:55 AM	#3
secretsquirrel Colonel 130 Rep 2,291 Posts Drives: f80 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Far North Dallas iTrader: (2)	Use the calculator on the bottom of this page labeled "Octane result from blending 2 fuels". http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html For safety's sake, assume the blend of e85 is about e70 because of reformulation for winter blends. A ratio of about 3/7 is usually pretty good for most people and will likely not max out your fuel. You will need to log your fuel trims to determine your car's fueling limitations. I would manually set my timing and boost. Set one map for regular gas, and map 2 for e85. Of course, the map for e85 will have increased timing and boost. Another option is to run the e85 maps from Vishnu's site. Be careful to never run the e85 map while running regular gas. Enjoy the corn.
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12-19-2013, 12:20 PM	#5
deathbunny Lieutenant 22 Rep 414 Posts Drives: 2012 E92 M3 Join Date: May 2013 Location: Vegas iTrader: (2)	E20 should be enough to bring 91 oct up to 93. When I was doing this I was mixing between 2-3 gal per tank depending on how empty it was. Don't forget to log to make sure its happy. __________________ "And just one question I might ask yah, and it might sound like A disaster, can you make this thing go faster?"
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12-19-2013, 03:26 PM	#6
enrita Major General 161 Rep 7,377 Posts Drives: 335i - Big turbos Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Italian in Sweden iTrader: (0)	Its not about octane but higher knock resistance with ethanol and direct injection. E30 is fine for the oem fuel system . U need to log both map 1 and 2 and see how timings look like
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12-19-2013, 09:27 PM	#7
SINGH_ N54 E92 51 Rep 342 Posts Drives: 2009 BMW 335i Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Nor Cal iTrader: (1)	What channels should I log? Logging it tonight for both Map 1 and Map 2, will post images and the datalog files tonight Thanks for the help everyone! __________________ Light Bolt-ons, Tunes, & Methanol Injection: 12.30 @ 115mph [2.0 60ft on Street Tires] [91 Octane] 1.59 Seconds Faster than Stock [as of 05/29/2014] Previous Vehicle: '65 Chevelle [LSx 6.0L/4L80e]
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12-19-2013, 11:00 PM	#8
froop Colonel 171 Rep 2,682 Posts Drives: 08 AW 6MT E82 Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Sydney, Australia iTrader: (3)	Do the 7-29 autotune maps adjust for E85? I was under the impression it was more just for the mods you were running but I could be wrong. You could try running the 50% E85 9-10 aggressive maps. I'm running the 9-10 pump fuel stage 3 maps and I'm FBO with meth. I hit a max of 16-17psi with start boost on 65% and still pulled 309.9kW on a dyno dynamics roller. Stock dyno was 186kW. I'd love to try the E85 maps but gotta get my brakes working properly first haha. __________________ froop's AW 135i Build Thread
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12-20-2013, 12:08 AM	#10
Mit_Boost Captain 135 Rep 692 Posts Drives: E90 335 Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: NJ iTrader: (0)	Ethanol will allow for a much more aggressive tune to be run safely. Just make sure to monitor your fuel trims (Long & Short term) to make sure you're not maxing them out and running the motor lean. I'm not sure how the PROcede reads AFR (if it converts Lambda to AFR), but you'll want to keep it under 13 at all times.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-20-2013, 12:28 AM	#11
SINGH_ N54 E92 51 Rep 342 Posts Drives: 2009 BMW 335i Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Nor Cal iTrader: (1)	looks like i missed a few channels, let me know if this can give you guys in idea if im running at safe levels: Attached Images __________________ Light Bolt-ons, Tunes, & Methanol Injection: 12.30 @ 115mph [2.0 60ft on Street Tires] [91 Octane] 1.59 Seconds Faster than Stock [as of 05/29/2014] Previous Vehicle: '65 Chevelle [LSx 6.0L/4L80e]
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12-20-2013, 12:40 AM	#12
SINGH_ N54 E92 51 Rep 342 Posts Drives: 2009 BMW 335i Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Nor Cal iTrader: (1)	MAP 1 Datalog (30/70 Blend): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7M...it?usp=sharing MAP 2 Datalog (30/70 Blend): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7M...it?usp=sharing __________________ Light Bolt-ons, Tunes, & Methanol Injection: 12.30 @ 115mph [2.0 60ft on Street Tires] [91 Octane] 1.59 Seconds Faster than Stock [as of 05/29/2014] Previous Vehicle: '65 Chevelle [LSx 6.0L/4L80e]
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12-20-2013, 01:06 AM	#13
SINGH_ N54 E92 51 Rep 342 Posts Drives: 2009 BMW 335i Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Nor Cal iTrader: (1)	Also, I saw alot of people talking about maxing fuel trims and setting open loop/OL to 100%. What does OL do, mine is set to 0 as it came in the downloaded map.
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12-20-2013, 01:42 AM	#14
froop Colonel 171 Rep 2,682 Posts Drives: 08 AW 6MT E82 Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Sydney, Australia iTrader: (3)	It's no good. Boost is all over the shop and fuel trims are maxed. There are 3 possible causes. 1. 7-29 maps were not designed for E85 blends. 2. You need to raise the OL fueling. What is it at now? 3. Your fuel system is tired and cannot cope with an E20/30 blend. Most likely it is one of the first 2. __________________ froop's AW 135i Build Thread
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-20-2013, 11:34 AM	#15
Mit_Boost Captain 135 Rep 692 Posts Drives: E90 335 Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: NJ iTrader: (0)	I hate PROcede logs, but I can easily read that the Fuel Trims are maxed (=34%) and that boost curve is all over. Take logs on just pump gas and see how they compare. If your fuel trims (Short or Long) are in the 20s on Pump, you've got a fueling problem that needs to be addressed before you run E85 again.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-20-2013, 11:57 AM	#16
SINGH_ N54 E92 51 Rep 342 Posts Drives: 2009 BMW 335i Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Nor Cal iTrader: (1)	Oh nooo, they didn't look right to me either but wasn't sure. My OL fueling is at 0%, should I change it? 100%? Let me know then I can datalog the vehicle again for you guys. Would/how would the OL fueling help? All the help is much appropriated! Last edited by SINGH_; 12-20-2013 at 12:50 PM..
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12-20-2013, 02:07 PM	#17
SINGH_ N54 E92 51 Rep 342 Posts Drives: 2009 BMW 335i Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Nor Cal iTrader: (1)	Just did some new runs with the OL Fueling set to 100%, what do you guys think? Attached Images __________________ Light Bolt-ons, Tunes, & Methanol Injection: 12.30 @ 115mph [2.0 60ft on Street Tires] [91 Octane] 1.59 Seconds Faster than Stock [as of 05/29/2014] Previous Vehicle: '65 Chevelle [LSx 6.0L/4L80e]
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12-20-2013, 02:21 PM	#18
SINGH_ N54 E92 51 Rep 342 Posts Drives: 2009 BMW 335i Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Nor Cal iTrader: (1)	the files: MAP 1 Datalog (12-20-13): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7M...it?usp=sharing MAP 2 Datalog (12-20-13): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7M...it?usp=sharing __________________ Light Bolt-ons, Tunes, & Methanol Injection: 12.30 @ 115mph [2.0 60ft on Street Tires] [91 Octane] 1.59 Seconds Faster than Stock [as of 05/29/2014] Previous Vehicle: '65 Chevelle [LSx 6.0L/4L80e]
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12-20-2013, 02:49 PM	#19
SINGH_ N54 E92 51 Rep 342 Posts Drives: 2009 BMW 335i Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Nor Cal iTrader: (1)	Air/Fuel Ratios seem a bit better, but the Fuel Trims still seem maxed... is everything within safe levels to drive around/get on the throttle? is my OL set too high? how would would I go about fixing my fuel trims? Doesn't seem like the Vishnu crew gives support on the forums much anymore, everything seems juice box dominated. I've shot them email asking for support. Hope fully they chime in and help a customer out. __________________ Light Bolt-ons, Tunes, & Methanol Injection: 12.30 @ 115mph [2.0 60ft on Street Tires] [91 Octane] 1.59 Seconds Faster than Stock [as of 05/29/2014] Previous Vehicle: '65 Chevelle [LSx 6.0L/4L80e] Last edited by SINGH_; 12-20-2013 at 02:57 PM..
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12-20-2013, 05:14 PM	#20
froop Colonel 171 Rep 2,682 Posts Drives: 08 AW 6MT E82 Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Sydney, Australia iTrader: (3)	Your fuel trims are atill maxed and the AFR and boost is still all over the place. It's still ok good. My serious suggestion for you would be to use the 9-10 aggressive E85 maps on their stock settings. It requires a 50% E85 to pump fuel ratio but you'd be better off doing that than messing around with old maps which have likely been fiddled with. __________________ froop's AW 135i Build Thread
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-20-2013, 05:28 PM	#21
froop Colonel 171 Rep 2,682 Posts Drives: 08 AW 6MT E82 Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Sydney, Australia iTrader: (3)	This is by ok means a direct comparison to your car but it's an example of a nicer looking datalog. http://datazap.me/u/froop/20131207-a...-6-7-8-9-10-11 This was running the OTS 9-10 Stage 3 Aggressive map. The only thing I changed on the user adjustable map was to turn on PWM meth, meth injection mode to 43, start boost map 2 to 65% and ignition correction to 100% as per the recommended settings. As you can see, my boost curve is very smooth as are my AFT curves which start lean at around 14-15 at the beginning of the pull and gradually enrich down to around 11-12. My fuel trims are maxed for a bit but further into the pull they are well below. I sent this to Vishnu and they advised me to increase start boost to 80% and increase OL fueling to 100% after which I'll datalog again. This should hopefully push map 2 boost targets closer to 18-19psi and stop fuel trims from maxing out. Once I'm happy with them I'll try out their E85 9-10 maps. But yeah, as I said earlier, I believe your main problem is running either messed up 7-29 maps or you shouldn't be running those maps at all with E85 blends. Although an 50% E85 mix sounds a bit much, that's actually equivalent to an E42.5 mix which a healthy stock fuel system should be able to handle. __________________ froop's AW 135i Build Thread
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-21-2013, 02:39 PM	#22
SINGH_ N54 E92 51 Rep 342 Posts Drives: 2009 BMW 335i Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Nor Cal iTrader: (1)	Thank you for all the help froop, I stalked to Vishnu. They said not to run e85 with the 7-29 setup, so I diluted my mixture by adding 7 gal of 91 octane last night, plan on running the tank near dry and fueling back up to a full thank. Then I will be posting new datalogs so we can establish a solid base on the 7-29 tunes using just 91 octane. Then if everything looks solid, see how well vishnus 50/50 blend maps for me. I'm suspecting even the 7-29 trims on 91 will be giving me issues...
	Appreciate 0 Quote