E90Post
 


 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90/E92/E93 Marketplace (For Sale / Trade / Wanted) > Vendor Comments/Review/Feedback Forum > Unethical Vendor - BMS (Burger Motorsports bad review)



Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-15-2012, 12:43 PM   #45
divisionbell77
Lieutenant
divisionbell77's Avatar
16
Rep
459
Posts

Drives: 2011 335i XDrive Coupe
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ohio

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by melloww22 View Post
If I were you I would gather all my discovery material, organize the facts in chronological order, and file a libel lawsuit. This type of vendor conduct is inexcusable and unethical... Those $6 per unit can result into $60k or more if you can prove your case... You may also file for infringement if you patent, copyright or trademark the product in question...
How does libel factor in?
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 12:52 PM   #46
gpb
First Lieutenant
5
Rep
393
Posts

Drives: 335i Cabrio
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Atlanta

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by divisionbell77 View Post
How does libel factor in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetBlackE46 View Post
BMS had first made a copy cat clutch stop (and also stole my install pictures) a year ago and called my design inferior as part of their marketing campaign.

I suspect this is the part. I'm not sure it qualifies as libel unless they were doing so in a way to intentionally defame JetBlack rather than the design.

I'm curious to see BMS step up with a response.
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 12:58 PM   #47
E91 Hoarder
Captain
E91 Hoarder's Avatar
No_Country
118
Rep
831
Posts

Drives: E91 AWD, E91 RWD, E90, X535i
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: On the Road

iTrader: (8)

I suggest banning BMS from being a board sponsor. Business is business, but such an unethical behavior should not be tolerated at all.

OP, try to reach BMW CCA and tell them your story. BMS needs to be taught a lesson.
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 01:06 PM   #48
WilliamS
GoofBall
United_States
50
Rep
1,055
Posts

Drives: 2008 E92 N54 Xdrive
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Tampa, FL

iTrader: (2)

BMS would be stupid to answer a public forum as such regardless of fact and evidence its an no win debate. The design is straight forward and different is it from the screw in deisgn they originally had? Im not taking sides but how much alteration from the BMS screw in or other setups out there did you have to do to have the press in design? Again not taking sides but if the clutch stops are good from the 80's to the current ones where did the actual design originate? These are things that will come up if there is any form of law suit or questioning.

If it was publicly made and not patented then its anyone who has the time and money to make it their own. I had this happen to me on a different platform but same concept, I saw a need, saw a solution, adapted it to the car I had and started to make them for members. 6 months later the same company that makes the same device for other cars that emailed me the car I was driving had too small of a market to make them sent me a cease and decist letter that I was infringing on their patent on that very vehicle. I was allowed to sell the rest of the ones I hand built and stopped to avoid other actions. The reason I was able to sell out is becuase I had the digital media for that design out first so I could prove without doubt I was first on the scene for that platform.

Again not taking sides, but this happens all the time it shouldnt be any surprise at all. Think fruit of the loom and hanes. Take it out of what we personally see and take a look at those two companies. Same thing, always chasing a design and trying to one up it to sell. Pepsi and Coke (diet, cherry, vanilla, zero, clear) they all do it. Dont take it personally but its just business good or bad.

BMS should not add anything to this thread as all it will do is feed the fire and the trolls. You can look up threads of how great they are at the same time find many of them. Its a company out there to make money. Just happens its within our interests.
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 01:12 PM   #49
Mike@N54Tuning.com
Joint Chiefs of Staff
Canada
4901
Rep
115,955
Posts

Drives: 2007 335i, 2015 M3
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: N54tuning.com

iTrader: (89)

So, you're a vendor selling a product without a sponsorship account, and you're unhappy that another vendor is selling a similar product for less money? Have you considered BMS is not the only one selling clutch stops? Adjustable clutch stops have been around as long as clutches have been around and anyone can take a trip to home depot and make their own identical clutch stop.

It seems you are just unhappy BMS is willing to sell the same part for less? Fair enough. Then lower your price!

Regarding the BMS eBay only stop with metal washers I know for a fact they added it after a customer told them you claimed theirs would fall apart. Which is of course untrue. But they disliked the way you were behaving and spreading bad information to their customers so they decided to just offer the cheaper version using metal washers for those who bought in to the BS.

On the photos, there are several employees over there and likely someone made a mistake. I'm sure they will resolve that ASAP. They have sold hundreds of clutch stops I'm sure they can come up with their own photos.

Mike
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 01:14 PM   #50
JetBlackE46
Private First Class
JetBlackE46's Avatar
United_States
20
Rep
106
Posts

Drives: ///M
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofyguy View Post
BMS would be stupid to answer a public forum as such regardless of fact and evidence its an no win debate. The design is straight forward and different is it from the screw in deisgn they originally had? Im not taking sides but how much alteration from the BMS screw in or other setups out there did you have to do to have the press in design? Again not taking sides but if the clutch stops are good from the 80's to the current ones where did the actual design originate? These are things that will come up if there is any form of law suit or questioning.

If it was publicly made and not patented then its anyone who has the time and money to make it their own. I had this happen to me on a different platform but same concept, I saw a need, saw a solution, adapted it to the car I had and started to make them for members. 6 months later the same company that makes the same device for other cars that emailed me the car I was driving had too small of a market to make them sent me a cease and decist letter that I was infringing on their patent on that very vehicle. I was allowed to sell the rest of the ones I hand built and stopped to avoid other actions. The reason I was able to sell out is becuase I had the digital media for that design out first so I could prove without doubt I was first on the scene for that platform.

Again not taking sides, but this happens all the time it shouldnt be any surprise at all. Think fruit of the loom and hanes. Take it out of what we personally see and take a look at those two companies. Same thing, always chasing a design and trying to one up it to sell. Pepsi and Coke (diet, cherry, vanilla, zero, clear) they all do it. Dont take it personally but its just business good or bad.

BMS should not add anything to this thread as all it will do is feed the fire and the trolls. You can look up threads of how great they are at the same time find many of them. Its a company out there to make money. Just happens its within our interests.
The screw design was not by BMS, it was another vendor. I forget which one. But it was completely different and it needed a clip to install.

My design is plug and play like the oem design.

I don't have a patent so no real legal action can be taken at the moment and I accept that.

I'm just letting the community know of their unethical behavior. I'm sure many have had positive dealings with them and that's great.

I'm only stating facts so that the my fellow BMW enthusiasts are aware. I'm just a regular dude like you guys that love's BMWs and wanted to make something neat. It's just a spare time hobby.

If someone improves on the idea then great. Go for it.

But don't copy my design and steal my pictures and call it your own. Just because something is not illegal (no patent) doesn't mean it's right.
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 01:18 PM   #51
Transport3r
Major
Transport3r's Avatar
86
Rep
1,262
Posts

Drives: 2011 N55 E90
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Melbourne, FL

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetBlackE46 View Post
Just because something is not illegal (no patent) doesn't mean it's right.
I completely agree.
I was going to try out their downpipes and get some other parts to get to FBO from them real soon, looks like I'm looking to spend my money elsewhere.
__________________
Josh-

Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 01:19 PM   #52
JetBlackE46
Private First Class
JetBlackE46's Avatar
United_States
20
Rep
106
Posts

Drives: ///M
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
So, you're a vendor selling a product without a sponsorship account, and you're unhappy that another vendor is selling a similar product for less money? Have you considered BMS is not the only one selling clutch stops? Adjustable clutch stops have been around as long as clutches have been around and anyone can take a trip to home depot and make their own identical clutch stop.

It seems you are just unhappy BMS is willing to sell the same part for less? Fair enough. Then lower your price!

Regarding the BMS eBay only stop with metal washers I know for a fact they added it after a customer told them you claimed theirs would fall apart. Which is of course untrue. But they disliked the way you were behaving and spreading bad information to their customers so they decided to just offer the cheaper version using metal washers for those who bought in to the BS.

On the photos, there are several employees over there and likely someone made a mistake. I'm sure they will resolve that ASAP. They have sold hundreds of clutch stops I'm sure they can come up with their own photos.

Mike
I sell on eBay.

You yourself called my design "tacky" in another post and now BMS copied it.

Ok, anything is possible. It could be a "mistake". Someone may have accidentally copied and saved my photos while they were supposed to use their own camera to snap some shots. I can totally see how that can happen.
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 01:27 PM   #53
CARP3_DM
SIDEWAYS
United_States
0
Rep
7
Posts

Drives: 07 335i e90 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: United States

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2007 bmw 335i 392  [0.00]
2007 BMW 335i  [0.00]
Thumbs down bms fail

Sorry to hear that OP... Sucks because Terry seemed alright when I bought my JB.

BUUUUTTTTTTTTTT, I have just completed a transaction with YOU for your innovation and cajones...

IDK how this will play out for you but I wish you all the best... Shitty deal with the guys at BMS though. We can come up with funny acronym for them to shame them into making this right

B-itches
M-ight
S-tealyoshit
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 01:32 PM   #54
gpb
First Lieutenant
5
Rep
393
Posts

Drives: 335i Cabrio
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Atlanta

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofyguy View Post
The design is straight forward and different is it from the screw in deisgn they originally had?
Speaking only for myself, I was speaking to the alleged copyright violation of BMS using the OP's images without permission.

BMS is certainly in a difficult position; not responding within this thread leaves one side of the story in people's minds. Responding to the thread risks turning it into a flame-fest. Tough call, neither choice is a good one.
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 01:41 PM   #55
ragingclue
One cam is enough
ragingclue's Avatar
130
Rep
6,801
Posts

Drives: VF
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: mulletville

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpb View Post
Speaking only for myself, I was speaking to the alleged copyright violation of BMS using the OP's images without permission.

BMS is certainly in a difficult position; not responding within this thread leaves one side of the story in people's minds. Responding to the thread risks turning it into a flame-fest. Tough call, neither choice is a good one.
They did reply....

Apparently use of OP's pics was a "mistake".
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 01:50 PM   #56
Hisam135i
Major
Hisam135i's Avatar
United_States
54
Rep
1,166
Posts

Drives: 335i
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Irvine, CA

iTrader: (0)

thats low
__________________
2008 Monaco Blue 335i | Terracotta | Premium | Auto | Comfort Access | Matte-black Grills | Carbon Fiber Splitters | 20% Tint | 1- point E9x Picture Game | Staggered 19' VMR V701 | Legal Disclaimer: My posts on this website cannot be held against me in any issues, such as warranty claims. |
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 01:54 PM   #57
Laguna Seca Blue
Major
Laguna Seca Blue's Avatar
United_States
234
Rep
1,040
Posts

Drives: N54 E92 | N55 F15 | N55 E70
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (1)

BMS is banned from being a board sponsor. Mike is their surrogate on here and in my opinion should be banned as well because he lets Terry use his account to post. Furthermore Mike masquerades as an independent retailer when he clearly has a vested interest in BMS.

BTW, that was an absolute inane response, Terry. Do you think anyone believes you used that picture by mistake?
__________________
E92 335i 6MT | Balloon White | Black Dakota Leather - Sold
PROcede Rev3 V5 | AE Quad Exhaust | BMW Performance Short Shift Kit | Gunmetal 19" M3 GTS Wheels | BF Goodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2 | AST 4100 Coilovers | Swift Springs F:280 R:560 | ER Charge Pipe | Tial Blue BOV | VRSF 3" Downpipes | VRSF 7" Intercooler

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=782212
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 01:57 PM   #58
Meeni
Gateropode
Meeni's Avatar
329
Rep
2,848
Posts

Drives: BMW 330i 06
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: TN

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofyguy View Post
If it was publicly made and not patented then its anyone who has the time and money to make it their own. I had this happen to me on a different platform but same concept, I saw a need, saw a solution, adapted it to the car I had and started to make them for members. 6 months later the same company that makes the same device for other cars that emailed me the car I was driving had too small of a market to make them sent me a cease and decist letter that I was infringing on their patent on that very vehicle. I was allowed to sell the rest of the ones I hand built and stopped to avoid other actions.
It seems to me that you have been bullied by this company. You had all the right to make and sell your device, but you decided to stop because they threatened you with some vague patent. I understand you folding to such pressure, as for an individual, legal cost can spiral out of control and make you lose more money than you can afford, even if you end up winning the legal battle. But to me, this is a sign that patenting is a dysfunctional process. On the other hand, without patents, the sad story of the op repeats again and again. Tough choice between two evils, enabling copycats, or enabling innovation crushers.
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 01:58 PM   #59
dankfanatic
Private
dankfanatic's Avatar
9
Rep
73
Posts

Drives: 335i
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SoCaL

iTrader: (4)

LMAO using someone else's photo was a "mistake."
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 02:05 PM   #60
MGT81
Lieutenant
Canada
101
Rep
535
Posts

Drives: 335xi
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Calgary

iTrader: (0)

That sucks. It sucks more too because you don't have a patent. Either way, it's a shotty thing to do. Btw, I have YOUR clutch stop. Gf ordered it for me after I got the car this year. You were pleasant to deal with and I got it quickly, even being in Canada. Plus it was SO easy and quick to install. Makes a huge difference to the clutch feel when double clutching and matching revs. Best mod, bang-for-the buck. Makes driving easier.

Sorry dude. I agree about serving them with a DMCA notice though. The pics are your property
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 02:06 PM   #61
slo_335-e90
Lieutenant
32
Rep
571
Posts

Drives: 2007 E90
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: USA

iTrader: (11)

Sorry to hear OP. Hope all works out in your favor
__________________
-335xi---Innotech Exhaust---AR 3" Catless---Pro tuned---HPF FMIC---ER Chargepipe---KW V1---Injen DCI---BMW Performance Front Bumper, Rear Spoiler & Door Sills---Vorsteiner wheels---much more-
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 02:13 PM   #62
ttribe
First Lieutenant
ttribe's Avatar
United_States
16
Rep
370
Posts

Drives: '09 E93 335i
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Phoenix, AZ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
So, you're a vendor selling a product without a sponsorship account, and you're unhappy that another vendor is selling a similar product for less money? Have you considered BMS is not the only one selling clutch stops? Adjustable clutch stops have been around as long as clutches have been around and anyone can take a trip to home depot and make their own identical clutch stop.

It seems you are just unhappy BMS is willing to sell the same part for less? Fair enough. Then lower your price!

Regarding the BMS eBay only stop with metal washers I know for a fact they added it after a customer told them you claimed theirs would fall apart. Which is of course untrue. But they disliked the way you were behaving and spreading bad information to their customers so they decided to just offer the cheaper version using metal washers for those who bought in to the BS.

On the photos, there are several employees over there and likely someone made a mistake. I'm sure they will resolve that ASAP. They have sold hundreds of clutch stops I'm sure they can come up with their own photos.

Mike
A third-party vendor jumping in to take sides in this? Not a good idea.
__________________
2012+ 09 E93 335i - Space Gray, N54, Sport, Premium, Comfort, Logic7, Nav Mods - Reflectors, LUX, Pedals, M3 Spoiler, Black Grilles, Macht Schnell, Aero, ESS, StopTech
2011-12 07 E60 M5 - Indy Red
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 02:17 PM   #63
Laguna Seca Blue
Major
Laguna Seca Blue's Avatar
United_States
234
Rep
1,040
Posts

Drives: N54 E92 | N55 F15 | N55 E70
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (1)

^He's not a third party vendor. He just plays one on TV

Also in defense of the OP, he hasn't been actively marketing his product on this forum without being a sponsor. He's simply used those those links to provide proof of blatant copying.
__________________
E92 335i 6MT | Balloon White | Black Dakota Leather - Sold
PROcede Rev3 V5 | AE Quad Exhaust | BMW Performance Short Shift Kit | Gunmetal 19" M3 GTS Wheels | BF Goodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2 | AST 4100 Coilovers | Swift Springs F:280 R:560 | ER Charge Pipe | Tial Blue BOV | VRSF 3" Downpipes | VRSF 7" Intercooler

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=782212
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 02:20 PM   #64
iBoost
Retired e90post Member
iBoost's Avatar
135
Rep
3,038
Posts

Drives: real slow
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Las Vegas

iTrader: (13)

Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 02:21 PM   #65
ttribe
First Lieutenant
ttribe's Avatar
United_States
16
Rep
370
Posts

Drives: '09 E93 335i
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Phoenix, AZ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue View Post
^He's not a third party vendor.
I clearly don't have enough background on this (and I saw your post above), but at the least Mike's trying to maintain the appearance of being independent. Given the effort to maintain appearances as such, it seems a decidedly BAD idea for him to chime in like this.
__________________
2012+ 09 E93 335i - Space Gray, N54, Sport, Premium, Comfort, Logic7, Nav Mods - Reflectors, LUX, Pedals, M3 Spoiler, Black Grilles, Macht Schnell, Aero, ESS, StopTech
2011-12 07 E60 M5 - Indy Red
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2012, 02:25 PM   #66
Laguna Seca Blue
Major
Laguna Seca Blue's Avatar
United_States
234
Rep
1,040
Posts

Drives: N54 E92 | N55 F15 | N55 E70
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ttribe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue View Post
^He's not a third party vendor.
I clearly don't have enough background on this (and I saw your post above), but at the least Mike's trying to maintain the appearance of being independent. Given the effort to maintain appearances as such, it seems a decidedly BAD idea for him to chime in like this.
He does it all the time. That's why anyone whose been on these boards long enough know's he's not independent. It's all part and parcel of BMS' extremely shady business practices.
__________________
E92 335i 6MT | Balloon White | Black Dakota Leather - Sold
PROcede Rev3 V5 | AE Quad Exhaust | BMW Performance Short Shift Kit | Gunmetal 19" M3 GTS Wheels | BF Goodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2 | AST 4100 Coilovers | Swift Springs F:280 R:560 | ER Charge Pipe | Tial Blue BOV | VRSF 3" Downpipes | VRSF 7" Intercooler

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=782212
Appreciate 0
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:13 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST