[e90injrz]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

These issues are being made bigger in his head.





You have yet to post anything showing what these "knocks" even are. How severe they are, you have yet to post ANYTHING really, other then the fact that the JB uses the OEM knock sensor to lower ignition timing.

i agree with clap on this part. 99% of the tuned community is just running a tune. He is referring to the FBO community running high boost and relying on the ECU to save you from knock mid WOT etc.


So far i know plenty of people running 18+ psi with the jb3/4 and no problems. Its just the fact that Mike is trying to convince him the jb3/4 works differently then what is in fact true that pisses him off.


The pre-knock OP is just ridiculous.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

In theory you should not be allowed to run more PSI then your timing allow's, the car would detect the knocking frequency's at first and lower the timing until it was unable to do so any farther, if you kept pushing it... well you have seen the blown up cars.


If you work within the range of the OEM knock sensor, it will do what it was designed to do.

the OEM knock sensor is designed for stock boost levels. 14psi on pump gas is not "stock boost levels". Heck, 18psi with full bolt-ons + meth is not stock boost levels.

Cylinder pressures at the increased boost levels and knocking at those boost levels are more damaging than the timing dropouts and corresponding knock at 8 psi.

These motors are built strong from the factory; the challenge is how many of these motors will make it to 100k tuned miles without issue without proactive ignition control.

With meth, the whole ignition control thing is a bit less relevant assuming a reasonable boost level, but if you want to tune for safety, proactively reducing the ignition set points will be far less damaging than letting the knock sensors and DME intervene.

[Joshboody]

i have no doubt terry's a good tuner, but he has to sell what has already been developed and can't admit that he's been selling and defending a inferior tune pertaining to timing.

using stock timing is not bad... according to the very happy JB guys and lack of many engine failures... but NOT optimal according to the datalogs and DME timing control. if you JB guys see this thread and still run JB, I'm surprised. If you datalog, then surprised also.

We haven't seen many JB datalogs, but I can imagine how they would look. similar to stock, but with more drops just due to the combination of stock retard and steaper advance to get back to its curve.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by e90injrz

i agree with clap on this part. 99% of the tuned community is just running a tune. He is referring to the FBO community running high boost and relying on the ECU to save you from knock mid WOT etc.


So far i know plenty of people running 18+ psi with the jb3/4 and no problems. Its just the fact that Mike is trying to convince him the jb3/4 works differently then what is in fact true that pisses him off.


The pre-knock OP is just ridiculous.

He is trying to educate the "regular" community with high boost information...

Originally Posted by themyst

the OEM knock sensor is designed for stock boost levels. 14psi on pump gas is not "stock boost levels". Heck, 18psi with full bolt-ons + meth is not stock boost levels.

Cylinder pressures at the increased boost levels and knocking at those boost levels are more damaging than the timing dropouts and corresponding knock at 8 psi.

These motors are built strong from the factory; the challenge is how many of these motors will make it to 100k tuned miles without issue without proactive ignition control.

With meth, the whole ignition control thing is a bit less relevant assuming a reasonable boost level, but if you want to tune for safety, proactively reducing the ignition set points will be far less damaging than letting the knock sensors and DME intervene.

I agree that they both work. I also agree that if you are worrying solely on safety you should stay stock were it is "safe".

How much risk vs how much reward, if you want to be real safe, you should have a full meth setup and you will have no problems as long as your fail safe's are working.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Just curious why incityphoto INSISTS on responding to questions directed towards Clap. Take a breather. Let the man talk for himself.

[Clap135]

For those that have been following this guy. Keep in mind 40 of his 55 posts have been responses to me today. Its some juicebox fanboi or maybe terry himself that was banned and has a sn just to be able to read on here.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

For those that have been following this guy. Keep in mind 40 of his 55 posts have been responses to me today. Its some juicebox fanboi or maybe terry himself that was banned and has a sn just to be able to read on here.

For the sake of the conversation I am neutral on this debate.

[e90injrz]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

He is trying to educate the "regular" community with high boost information...

Not regular, more "experienced" user. their are probably hundreds of people that clicked this thread then went bye bye after not understanding WTF is going on.

Its simple. The Jb3/4 is "controlled" by the ECU and other tunes are the "controller" of the ECU.....Put vaguely.

[Clap135]

ignore lists ftw

[Clap135]

Terry new maps, looks like he circeled the timing drop outs, that didnt go away on a car running just 12-13psi fully bolted. Why would he circle them and base his autotuning of them if they arnt knock or dangerous?

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Clap135

The jb sampling rates are the slowest of all tunes that have logging abilities last time I checked. I asked if this changed with the jb4, but never got an answer.

The PROcede and JB4 both sample/log CAN data like timing advance at 10 times per second. Not sure on the Cobb but likely the same or slower as it has to go through a gateway like the BT cable did.

Mike

[Qmax03]

My Intake Manifold blew up ... That is ALL.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by beemw

Looks like Mike ran away, I guess we'll have to wait until Terry comes up with some other bullshit comment thats totaly off topic like he always does( for example: the jb4 is the best tune out there and if you order now ill drop the price....)
Ps: To all jb fan boys if you guys think Terry is such a genious tuner, you should check out all his threads on his account terry335 maybe then you guys will realise how clueless he really is...

Mike went to sleep As much as I love Clap's threads I like being in bed with my wife more

Mike

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Mike went to sleep As much as I love Clap's threads I like being in bed with my wife more

Mike

[Anders]

Some information about knock sensors and how they work:

http://www.wellsve.com/sft503/counterp_v4_i4_2000.pdf

[lndnny]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The PROcede and JB4 both sample/log CAN data like timing advance at 10 times per second. Not sure on the Cobb but likely the same or slower as it has to go through a gateway like the BT cable did.

Mike

Don't you just love these partial truths. That might be true, I'm not sure on the CAN data polling rate of the Procede, but I'm fairly certain that the sampling rate on the sensors read directly by the Procede are taken at 32 samples/second.

In all honesty, when I was in the market for a tune, I had been looking at the JB3 due to its lower price point. However, just lurking around these forums for a couple of weeks and reading all of Mike's partial truths made me a bit wary. Every attempt at an informative post had the twist of a sales pitch, and this was what lead me to dig deeper and to ultimately purchase a Procede. Mike, you should be a politician - pretty much everything I've read from you (other than acknowledgments and sales posts) has that little half/partial twist in it.

-Dan

PS. I'm quite amused by the bit where you always tell people that the JBx has ignition control because the long term trims in the DME will eventually bring ignition timing into a safe range. But I'm saddened that people can't seem to read past the BS.

[Kid Eh]

Originally Posted by beemw

Looks like Mike ran away, I guess we'll have to wait until Terry comes up with some other bullshit comment thats totaly off topic like he always does( for example: the jb4 is the best tune out there and if you order now ill drop the price....)
Ps: To all jb fan boys if you guys think Terry is such a genious tuner, you should check out all his threads on his account terry335 maybe then you guys will realise how clueless he really is...

Now that's funny.

[DaFish]

Originally Posted by skinrock

Honest question, where are all these issues being reported? Yes, I run the JB4, but I'm not a fanboy or anything - I just wanted a tune and found nothing but good reviews here.

I think we need to hear from you skinrock please. All these charts and spikes and knocks is techno babble to me.... lets get back to real life.

1) from the comparisons I have seen on JB4 and Procede... the track/drag results are similar for speed. Seems to me the JB4 is performing well.

2) skinrock, maybe you could give me a description on how the car drives... DD and then WOT 1,2, 3 gears.... do you see or hear knock, or drop in power....

3) is there a reliability issue on the JB4? What is the problem here with knocking...

3) Clap - I don't understand the purpose of the thread - turn the technical into real life for me please. What are you getting at? Is there a flat spot in the performance of the car when it gets hot? What is the big deal if JB4 doesn't control timing (as you claim)... if they are getting the peformance what does it matter how they do it?

Why did you want Mike/Terry to chime in - from a real life experience ? What is the problem? A graph doesn't tell me anything - I can't read it.

I am looking to go to a different tune other than my Dinan - I am out of warranty.

[Morpheus]

Couldn't read all 7 pages, but I'll echo the comments of several other people. BMW has more experience and knowledge tuning the N54 than anyone. They did extreme hot and extreme cold testing. Some knock must be acceptable. There is a threshold which when reached causes a limp. Piggy or no piggy, threshold is threshold. Where are all of the blown motors? Just like direct injection runs leaner AFRs than many are comfortable with maybe they knock more too. Clap sounds like he has a vendetta. Thanks for posting that stock log cause I feel better now.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Couldn't read all 7 pages, but I'll echo the comments of several other people. BMW has more experience and knowledge tuning the N54 than anyone. They did extreme hot and extreme cold testing. Some knock must be acceptable. There is a threshold which when reached causes a limp. Piggy or no piggy, threshold is threshold. Where are all of the blown motors? Just like direct injection runs leaner AFRs than many are comfortable with maybe they knock more too. Clap sounds like he has a vendetta. Thanks for posting that stock log cause I feel better now.

I suppose u missed that part on the first reply on page 7? Knocking at 13-14 psi is far different from knocking at 8 psi.

[Clap135]

The sampling rate of the procede is 3x per second, cobb is 25 per second Mike....
I like how the graph i recently posted simply got ignored.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by themyst

I suppose u missed that part on the first reply on page 7? Knocking at 13-14 psi is far different from knocking at 8 psi.

How can you know how severe each "knock" is at different PSI?

How do you know that the sensors are not picking up the frequency's before and actual damaging "knock" occurs.