E90Post
 


TNT Racewerks
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General BMW News and Cars Discussion > BMW M says future bleak for manual transmission, M cars to top out at 600 HP for now



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-06-2015, 06:30 PM   #67
xaappx
Lieutenant
200
Rep
477
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (2)

Weight won't get reduced.... at least not substantially.... with more and more safety requirements, plus technology, more and more weight will be added... just look at Tesla.
__________________
2004 M3 E46 LSB 6MT
2008 M3 E92 6MT
2024 M4 Competition xDrive
Appreciate 0
      07-06-2015, 06:36 PM   #68
jfox335i
Private
jfox335i's Avatar
63
Rep
84
Posts

Drives: 2014 M line 335i
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: PA

iTrader: (0)

My 2 cents: next generation M cars will have the option for a manual transmission. However, That will be the last generation of manual M cars (except possible special editions but I wouldn't hold my breath on that)

regardless, by 2025 this is a foregone conclusion. With the CAFE standards to hit 54.5 MPG, you can't realistically expect the Manual to survive that. And it's only 9.5 years away.

Also there's a bigger issue here. Don't just mourn the manual. Be prepared to mourn the death of the ICE. Natural Aspiration is nearly dead, and by 2025 hybrid/electric technology will dominate the new vehicle market.

Hate to say it but the M vehicles as we know them will most likely only be available in the used market. They will also be dead, sooner then you may think.

Mourn the manual, (I know I will) but be prepared to mourn so much more in the next 10 years.
__________________
Current:
2014 M Line 335i & 2012 M Sport Z435i
Appreciate 5
      07-06-2015, 06:38 PM   #69
aajami
Brigadier General
aajami's Avatar
United_States
430
Rep
4,567
Posts

Drives: Space Gray '09 E92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Yes, but the question is when they will be able to afford to lose those customers because of the savings they'll realize on the development, engineering, and manufacturing of their cars when they only offer one transmission. It will be a sad day, but I'm sure it's coming (6MT take rate dropped from 50% on the E46 M3 to 25% on the E9x), and at that point it will depend on whether the purists will be able to overpower the bean counters. Porsche has managed thus far, though that was achieved largely by creating the Panamera and Cayenne, though you'd think that BMW's current model range covering every possible niche would allow them to make some decisions that prioritize brand image and purism over frugality.
Yes. BMW is a business and when the day comes when they stop developing manual transmissions, it's because they would have done the math and come to the conclusion that it's cheaper to lose a vocal but increasingly-smaller minority of buyers who demand a manual transmission than it is to continue engineering the same car with two different drivetrains.
__________________
'09 E92 M3: Space Gray, Black, Carbon Leather | ZTP 2MK ZPP 2MT 6FL | link 1 / link 2
Mods: M Performance exhaust | ZCP retrofit | Euro airbox | GTS DCT flash | JPN 240 ECU flash | Euro LCI taillights | CRT lip | OEM alarm retrofit | Space Gray bumper plugs | BMW Performance: Mk. II spoiler / Mk. II non-electronic steering wheel / mirror caps / front grilles / side gills / intake louvers / emblem
Appreciate 0
      07-06-2015, 06:40 PM   #70
aajami
Brigadier General
aajami's Avatar
United_States
430
Rep
4,567
Posts

Drives: Space Gray '09 E92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfox335i View Post

Also there's a bigger issue here. Don't just mourn the manual. Be prepared to mourn the death of the ICE. Natural Aspiration is nearly dead, and by 2025 hybrid/electric technology will dominate the new vehicle market.

Hate to say it but the M vehicles as we know them will most likely only be available in the used market. They will also be dead, sooner then you may think.
I think your are on point. NA is all but dead except in a handful of sports cars. Pure turbos will live on for another two decades or so. After that point, the only engines you'll see will be hybrid-electrics or pure electrics.
__________________
'09 E92 M3: Space Gray, Black, Carbon Leather | ZTP 2MK ZPP 2MT 6FL | link 1 / link 2
Mods: M Performance exhaust | ZCP retrofit | Euro airbox | GTS DCT flash | JPN 240 ECU flash | Euro LCI taillights | CRT lip | OEM alarm retrofit | Space Gray bumper plugs | BMW Performance: Mk. II spoiler / Mk. II non-electronic steering wheel / mirror caps / front grilles / side gills / intake louvers / emblem
Appreciate 1
      07-06-2015, 06:42 PM   #71
LuisBoston
Lieutenant Colonel
LuisBoston's Avatar
United_States
320
Rep
1,846
Posts

Drives: '13 128i, '23 iX M60
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Boston

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2023 BMW iX M60  [0.00]
2013 BMW 128i  [9.50]
2007 328xi  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Once again, BMW sell these cars globally not just North America and their appeal and cost effective development means they are easy to conceive and sell at high profit which is why you will be seeing a 5er Gran Turismo replacement as well as new MINI's.
You can't blame "federalizing" or US crash testing then. Those extremely niche vehicles are sold in the US too and BMW pays for testing to sell them here. We don't get the multitude of manual transmission models other folks get. It's a lame excuse that does not pass muster.
__________________
2021 Polestar 2
2013 BMW 128i 6MT MGM/CR. M-sport/Premium/Cold, HK, Xenons, BMW SSK and PE. ED 7-12-2013.
SOLD: 2007 328xi 6MT BSM/Terra, 2018 F31 Sunset/Oyster
[url]http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=897862
Appreciate 0
      07-06-2015, 06:43 PM   #72
IS3andME
Major
482
Rep
1,189
Posts

Drives: Lexus IS300
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Maryland

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peertwelve View Post
Agree with the 600 hp Limit. Tough to get traction without awd. They won't kill manual transmission here in U.S. I hope!
Not if they do an M sports car. Something along the lines of the AMG's SLS and GT. Like that will happen (or being green lighted for production).
Appreciate 0
      07-06-2015, 06:46 PM   #73
Ray knight
Lieutenant
233
Rep
512
Posts

Drives: LBB F85 X5M
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: NE Ohio

iTrader: (1)

anything over 400hp and traction becomes an issue. i respect the 600hp limit. They better not stop making manuals though! for the M5/M6 sure. but the M2/3/4..no way! Manual makes the car. sure its a touch slower but so much more fun to drive. looks like i'll be keeping my 6mt F80 for a long time if thats the case.
Appreciate 0
      07-06-2015, 06:46 PM   #74
JasonCSU
Colonel
United_States
696
Rep
2,548
Posts

Drives: '08 135i, '88 325is
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Denver, CO

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
1988 BMW 325is  [0.00]
2008 BMW 135i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by antych View Post
Plenty of cars out there, take your pick. Your problem is not wanting choice. Your problem is wanting German engineering, best of its class, but refusing to accept technological progress. These are two conflicting goals.
Some of that technological progress completely numbs the driving experience for me. Don't get me wrong, I understand the DCT is superior in terms of speed and efficiency. The thing is, I don't care. I prefer the enjoyment and involvement of rowing my own gears.
__________________
Delivered in Munich, broken in on the Nurburgring.
Appreciate 2
      07-06-2015, 06:52 PM   #75
Chihuahua
Brigadier General
Chihuahua's Avatar
3989
Rep
3,158
Posts

Drives: E30 329iS, E65 Alpina B7
Join Date: May 2012
Location: ATL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by xaappx View Post
Weight won't get reduced.... at least not substantially.... with more and more safety requirements, plus technology, more and more weight will be added... just look at Tesla.
I think BMWs primary focus for its cars going forward will be weight reduction. It HAS to be if they want to get really serious about fuel economy, and they really don't have a choice when it comes to becoming more fuel efficient. I think anyone at BMW would tell you that this is a top priority right now in Munich.

Tesla is light years ahead of everyone when it comes to EVs. A P85D goes 0-60 about as fast as a liter bike and pulls nearly identical skidpad numbers as a Panamera GTS, even with all that weight. This coming from a car manufacturer that released its first model less than 8 years ago. So yes, if I'm in the $100K car market (M5, M6, Panamera, etc) I'm DEFINITELY looking at Tesla.
Appreciate 2
      07-06-2015, 06:56 PM   #76
Needbmwpartzz
Colonel
Needbmwpartzz's Avatar
851
Rep
2,793
Posts

Drives: 2009 bmw 328i x-drive
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kitchener/Waterloo

iTrader: (0)

What will be will be folks.......however things go I will always have my manual shift bicycle that I can skid wherever I choose,and I think most motorcycles still manually shift so screw the executives that actually ban the manual BMW....I will shed no tear,just move on to bigger and better things.
Live well my friends....live well.
Appreciate 2
      07-06-2015, 07:02 PM   #77
Mr.SugarSkulls
Brigadier General
Mr.SugarSkulls's Avatar
No_Country
2889
Rep
3,247
Posts

Drives: BMW i8
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Long Beach, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2016 BMW F13 M6  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Needbmwpartzz
What will be will be folks.......however things go I will always have my manual shift bicycle that I can skid wherever I choose,and I think most motorcycles still manually shift so screw the executives that actually ban the manual BMW....I will shed no tear,just move on to bigger and better things.
Live well my friends....live well.
If they do go away with the MT for the m5/m6- the positive is I've always wanted a lambo time to start saving now!
__________________
I'm always sunny, hunny.
Appreciate 1
      07-06-2015, 07:08 PM   #78
Needbmwpartzz
Colonel
Needbmwpartzz's Avatar
851
Rep
2,793
Posts

Drives: 2009 bmw 328i x-drive
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kitchener/Waterloo

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.SugarSkulls
Quote:
Originally Posted by Needbmwpartzz
What will be will be folks.......however things go I will always have my manual shift bicycle that I can skid wherever I choose,and I think most motorcycles still manually shift so screw the executives that actually ban the manual BMW....I will shed no tear,just move on to bigger and better things.
Live well my friends....live well.
If they do go away with the MT for the m5/m6- the positive is I've always wanted a lambo time to start saving now!
Now that would be sticking it to them.....hit them where it hurts lol.
Appreciate 1
      07-06-2015, 07:10 PM   #79
BrokenVert
Resident Kerbalnaut
BrokenVert's Avatar
United_States
476
Rep
10,703
Posts

Drives: Topless Brute/Hybrid Boogaloo
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Fahrvergnügen/NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwando View Post
Realistically, the general population of buyers probably don't need more than 400hp to drive to work and push it on the weekends. Heck, even that might be pushing it. I rather BMW focus on reducing weight and continuing to advance carbon fibre technology.
Ive never felt at a lack for power in my stock N54. Hell, I drive an i3 to work every day.

The power that these cars are producing is a bit insane.
__________________

Appreciate 0
      07-06-2015, 07:12 PM   #80
Mr.SugarSkulls
Brigadier General
Mr.SugarSkulls's Avatar
No_Country
2889
Rep
3,247
Posts

Drives: BMW i8
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Long Beach, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2016 BMW F13 M6  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Needbmwpartzz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.SugarSkulls
Quote:
Originally Posted by Needbmwpartzz
What will be will be folks.......however things go I will always have my manual shift bicycle that I can skid wherever I choose,and I think most motorcycles still manually shift so screw the executives that actually ban the manual BMW....I will shed no tear,just move on to bigger and better things.
Live well my friends....live well.
If they do go away with the MT for the m5/m6- the positive is I've always wanted a lambo time to start saving now!
Now that would be sticking it to them.....hit them where it hurts lol.
I know I'm not speaking for much of the f13/m6 community- but the biggest reason I didn't go to MB and picked up an AMG GTS or a huracan is because of the MT.

If we start comparing DCT between the more expensive M cars and lambos- I'm pretty certain most would chose the latter so I truly hope they reconsider
__________________
I'm always sunny, hunny.
Appreciate 2
      07-06-2015, 07:19 PM   #81
CookMaster
Second Lieutenant
United_States
42
Rep
213
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4 TB
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Tucson, AZ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
I think your are on point. NA is all but dead except in a handful of sports cars. Pure turbos will live on for another two decades or so. After that point, the only engines you'll see will be hybrid-electrics or pure electrics.
The cars you admire are great representatives of their era. As a retired pilot, automation management becomes a high order task for your job. Proven technical advances push the driving envelope without huge understanding in the underlying tech. While pushing throttles up seems to be a primary responsibility, having auto throttles do the same thing frees you up to concentrate on more critical threats. Your division of desired tasks vs those you should be focusing on spells the Nirvana of driving. Automation is simply a tool. Do I think manuals are important--hell yes, because it is a skill that needs to be learned if you travel. Same in planes, if you can't fly manually with all automation turned off, then you shouldn't fly. You obviously haven't grasped or maintained the necessary fundamentals.
Appreciate 0
      07-06-2015, 07:21 PM   #82
W///
Lieutenant General
W///'s Avatar
7433
Rep
12,291
Posts

Drives: F82GTS, E36/E92M3, Z4M
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SC

iTrader: (13)

I don't see it going away for the next gen M2/3/4 yet. But I don't care, by then, my car collection will be almost complete with an F87 M2, E36 M3 and E92 M3 in the garage. Guess what, they will all be MTs. The only car I'd be missing would be a 997 GT3 or GT4, but that is in the distant future.

I have much respect for DCT, but it's just not for me (driven countless M cars with them). If only some of these idiotic members would recognize that it's a personal choice, we'd be way better off
Appreciate 2
      07-06-2015, 07:25 PM   #83
evanescent03
Lieutenant Colonel
evanescent03's Avatar
1029
Rep
1,996
Posts

Drives: '24 M3 CS; '22 GT4
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: USA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey
Glad I have a 6MT on the way
my 6mt m3 finished production today... it'll be a keeper!
__________________
Gone but not forgotten: '09 STi // '08 335i // '02 M3 // '11 335i // '15 M3 // '16 M3 // '16 Camaro SS // '16 Audi S3 // '18 Boxster 718S // '17 Camaro SS 1LE // '16 M6 GC CP

Appreciate 0
      07-06-2015, 07:26 PM   #84
Needbmwpartzz
Colonel
Needbmwpartzz's Avatar
851
Rep
2,793
Posts

Drives: 2009 bmw 328i x-drive
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kitchener/Waterloo

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.SugarSkulls
Quote:
Originally Posted by Needbmwpartzz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.SugarSkulls
Quote:
Originally Posted by Needbmwpartzz
What will be will be folks.......however things go I will always have my manual shift bicycle that I can skid wherever I choose,and I think most motorcycles still manually shift so screw the executives that actually ban the manual BMW....I will shed no tear,just move on to bigger and better things.
Live well my friends....live well.
If they do go away with the MT for the m5/m6- the positive is I've always wanted a lambo time to start saving now!
Now that would be sticking it to them.....hit them where it hurts lol.
I know I'm not speaking for much of the f13/m6 community- but the biggest reason I didn't go to MB and picked up an AMG GTS or a huracan is because of the MT.

If we start comparing DCT between the more expensive M cars and lambos- I'm pretty certain most would chose the latter so I truly hope they reconsider
I don't think it will be anytime soon as they will lose the "enthusiasts"business for sure but the trend towards dct/auto is real and strong.
But losses will result from a decision such as this,especially if alternatives are out there to fill this need as you pointed out.
Next thing you know there will be a Save the manual protests happening in a city near you.
Appreciate 1
      07-06-2015, 07:27 PM   #85
ShocknAwe
1Addict
ShocknAwe's Avatar
3190
Rep
7,849
Posts

Drives: E82 Mutt, M57 Truck
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Charleston

iTrader: (22)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Padfan9 View Post
I definitely don't want them to stop increasing power levels. I would like to see at least the M3/M4 go up 5-15hp/tq every few years with added weight savings and better exterior/interior options (IE CF, no more chrome, better wheels, and even better exhaust, etc)
M3 was supposed to be the everyday motorsport oriented commuter car.

What is it now? Not really that IMO. They're on the upper cusp on what is usable on a daily basis.
__________________
2010 135i 6MT Jet Black
N54/3 FE82 Mutt | BUILD THREAD | GARAGE SALE
Appreciate 0
      07-06-2015, 07:30 PM   #86
LDSM
Captain
LDSM's Avatar
United_States
342
Rep
686
Posts

Drives: ...
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: ...

iTrader: (0)

If ///M ever dumps RWD completely, it's seriously time to move to Porsche
Appreciate 0
      07-06-2015, 07:30 PM   #87
FogCityM3
Colonel
FogCityM3's Avatar
497
Rep
2,400
Posts

Drives: M3 (E90) & Porsche GT3 RS
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: San Francisco

iTrader: (0)

So much win for the consumer here...
Appreciate 0
      07-06-2015, 07:33 PM   #88
midwest 340xi 6sp
Lieutenant Colonel
midwest 340xi 6sp's Avatar
United_States
358
Rep
1,797
Posts

Drives: 2018 340xi
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Great Midwest

iTrader: (6)

Meeting more stringent regulations tomorrow will mean goodbye to not only the MT, but many other attributes we enjoy today.

As a result, cars 10 years from now will be significantly different than today.

Hopefully not in a 1970's neutering way either.
__________________
Previous Rides: 535xi, M235xi, X3, E92 M3, E70 X5 35d, X6 50i, X6 35i, E60 550i, E46 M3 Cabriolet, E39 540i, E36 328i
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:42 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST