[makkan00]

Originally Posted by doughboy

I waited nearly 6 months for a court date / summons when I got pulled for speeding at 104 in 2005.

What was the punishment for that in 2005 then?

[doughboy]

2 week ban and £350 fine. No points.

But as said before, I got a local lawyer on the case which helped me avoid a 1 month ban or 6 points.

[makkan00]

Originally Posted by doughboy

2 week ban and 350 fine. No points.

But as said before, I got a local lawyer on the case which helped me avoid a 1 month ban or 6 points.

Very lucky!

[Hotcoupe]

Originally Posted by RagingKileak

Anyway, in the end I plead guilty and received 8 points for my trouble. I still don't understand to this day why they were so harsh but whatever, they were!
Matt

Geez, that was tough.

You must have felt like you'd been rear ended by a well hung donkey, and without the KY!

Originally Posted by RagingKileak

So my advice is - get a brief.

This ^

With six points already in the bin, another 6 or more gets you on a bike!

[mob17]

Got a real big sinking feeling now

Its unfair that i am threatened with a more harsh punishment if i want my case to be heard in court. Surely that should be a right with no conditions.

Anyways i'll tell you what happened in more detail. It was raining. I was at a traffic light and then took off. Did not go WOT obviously, just a spirited half to 3/4 pedal sprint for about 300 yards with 3 corners. The police must have seen me from the traffic light but they did not clock my speed.

Surely i can fight this in court? Are statements from 2 officers really that strong?

Normally the NIPs i've had come in about a week, so hopefully i'll hear soon. Praying its only 3 points but i'm worried after what doughboy and Matt have said. I wanted to buy coilies as well, no point if i'm banned

[Hotcoupe]

Originally Posted by mob17

Surely i can fight this in court? Are statements from 2 officers really that strong?

You can fight it in court Mob, but the word of two BIB will be a formidable foe!

As others have suggested, wait for the NIP, and get some professional advice.

[IanS100]

Originally Posted by mob17

Its unfair that i am threatened with a more harsh punishment if i want my case to be heard in court. Surely that should be a right with no conditions. (

The legal system will say that you don't receive "more harsh punishment" for having your case heard in a court, you may however receive a more lenient sentence if you choose not to waste the courts time

[xenon]

The whole idea of the "conditional offer" (fixed penalty) is to avoid clogging up the courts when there isn't really any argument about the situation, such as speeding, or in others where you admit your guilt. You don't get a harsher penalty at court you just get a more lenient penalty if you accept the offer, as IanS100 said.

As you were stopped, the NIP can take months to arrive - it only has to arrive within 14 days if you were not stopped as if it were months after you could very reasonably argue that you couldn't remember who was driving or anything about it - but if you were stopped it can take ages.

If you get offered a fixed penalty I'd take it like a shot - if it's a court summons then I'd get legal advice before pleading not guilty. Your word against 2 BIB with no reason to lie will not impress many magistrates.

[misterS3]

Originally Posted by xenon

Your word against 2 BIB with no reason to lie will not impress many magistrates.

Unless they were plebs

[MrPogle]

A mate of mine who was a traffic cop claimed that in 10 years he had never done anyone for merely speeding, only for driving too fast for the conditions. He also claimed that anyone who failed to notice a Volvo V70 with a florescent paint job was driving without due care and attention by definition.

[parapaul]

Originally Posted by RagingKileak

It's worth noting that if anyone has ever felt me harsh towards coppers or the justice system, it's worth bearing in mind that the copper lied on his statement and then didn't appear in court - so all the Mag could go on was the fact that the copper said he had 'pursued me at over 90 mph' which was a lie. He might have exceeded 90 miles per hour, but I had pulled over immediately and was stood waiting for them down the road.

Matt

Here's a funny thing. I got taken to court and prosecuted for DWDCAA while I was on my way to a 999 call at work. I was going too quick around a corner and hit the kerb.

The 'witness' who complained to the police lied from start to finish - and that was backed up by the police accident investigation, didn't turn up to court, but that apparently made no difference. Even with a barrister on my side (provided by my union) the Mags said the fact I'd clipped the kerb was all they needed to convict me.

OP, if you can avoid going to court by any means, please do. It's a thoroughly unpleasant experience. If you've had the NIP and it's backed by a police statement, you're fighting a losing battle. If you can afford to take the points and fine of the conditional offer, do so - it's the quickest and most painless way to get this over with.

[mob17]

I think i'll take the advice and sit tight, then if i get the points i'll take that quickly and quietly. It just felt really unfair initially, as i was driving a bit fast but i had the car all under control and it was never going to be dangerous. I would also argue i was actually caring more driving this way as opposed to daily slow driving, as i was concentrating more.

Anyway like parapaul says court won't be a pleasant experience. So hopefully fingers crossed i can avoid that. A ban would be a nightmare, especially for something as minor as what i did

Edit: Got the section 59 warning letter today. This is bullshit.

[fastloop]

Originally Posted by mob17

Edit: Got the section 59 warning letter today. This is bullshit.

The whole thing of a sec 59 and CD10 seems a bit harsh and you must have pissed someone off badly for them to go after you in this way. Was is really that bad or did they just have a bad day to throw the book at you? Only you and them really know what happen?

My main concern these alleged charges is that the burden of evidence appear very low? No video footage or any other evidence to back this up. It's only their word and statement against yours. From others it sounds like your word doesn't count for anything.

Its beyond me how speeding tickets are very clear cut with calibrated laser/video/cameras etc. Anything out of order and legally they would be on the back foot with a good solicitor. It's not like they can just guess what speed you were going at and have that stick in court. However if they think you were going to quick for the conditions, then bang CD10 or higher. This doesn't seem right given the big difference in points to a speeding ticket? Short of you going so quick that it in itself would have triggered a ban, then all this seems very harsh!

[ihpj]

Originally Posted by mob17

Edit: Got the section 59 warning letter today. This is bullshit.

Has anyone explained to you what a S59 actually is? I don't post often as I tend to have little to contribute (learn lots through reading the forum) but felt I ought to today.

Since you started this thread the one thing you have been praying for was not to go to Court and hope to take an FPN(E) or Awareness Course.

You have received a S59 warning letter - it is issued under the Police Reform Act 2002 which basically says that, as you have been witnessed driving in an antisocial manner, you have been served notice that if you (or your vehicle) are caught in such circumstances again your vehicle will be siezed. This 'warning' will be live for a date of 12 months and recorded on the PNC.

Now, you don't have a fine; you are not facing prosecution; you have no lengthy Court process to navigate; and you also are not getting points - please explain to me how this is 'bullshit' or that you have been treated unfairly?

You sped off from a standstill while it was wet on a public highway; you already have 6 points on your licence. You are driving a 'fast car' under speed in the wet - and you have 6 points already for driving offence(s)...but you still think you're a 'safe' driver? That you did nothing wrong?

Over confidence + powerful motor = recipe for disaster

You must change your driving habits, take responsibility for how you use the public highway and for goodness sake, drive to the prevailing conditions.



EDIT: Just re-read the thread again, I think you believe you will get prosecuted for the W/O Due Care; unlikely as you've got the S59. Certainly in my Force Area (and no doubt others) its one or the other and not both. Getting a S59 is easier as its a statement, letter and PNC form to place marker on the system and serving of the warning letter. If they do then proceed against you for W/O Due Care you can argue abuse of process and defend against it successfully.

[xs2man]

Sounds almost like a "best case scenario" then. No fine, no prosecution, just have to watch yourself for 12 months.

Sounds like a win to me?

[acerboo]

+1

[BGM]

Originally Posted by xs2man

A good solicitor can be worth his weight in gold.

i second this! the one i had for some uber speeding got me out of a jam about 8 years back :P

[mob17]

Originally Posted by ihpj

Now, you don't have a fine; you are not facing prosecution; you have no lengthy Court process to navigate; and you also are not getting points - please explain to me how this is 'bullshit' or that you have been treated unfairly?

Glad to see police officers giving their views as well

Ok if thats the case then i'll be over the moon! But i rang them today (number on S59 letter) and i told them i was also reported for driving without due care, and the lady said that will be a separate matter. Now i don't know who that lady is or how much she knows, but i'll contact the officer and find out. I said it was bullshit as i believe they will also prosecute me for driving without due care.

You sped off from a standstill while it was wet on a public highway; you already have 6 points on your licence. You are driving a 'fast car' under speed in the wet - and you have 6 points already for driving offence(s)...but you still think you're a 'safe' driver? That you did nothing wrong?

Over confidence + powerful motor = recipe for disaster

You must change your driving habits, take responsibility for how you use the public highway and for goodness sake, drive to the prevailing conditions.

My driving habits? It's a bit unfair to judge me from this one scenario, or even my 6 points. You have no idea what the 6 points were for or what happened. So please don't assume.

Anyways i didn't speed off like a lunatic if that's what you're trying to imply. Like i said it was a half to 3/4 pedal sprint for 300 yards. I'm not some donut who doesn't know how to adjust driving to match conditions. This isn't over confidence it's just reality: i never push my car to it's limits on the road, so i know i'm in total control (barring external influences).

Obviously if i was going crazy in the wet i'd agree with everything you say, not feel hard done by and take the punishment. But in this situation, it is harsh, as i was not giving it the full beans and it was just a few blips of the pedal. I'm not saying i was under the speed limit, but i was not driving without due care, i care about my life, and more importantly my car!

EDIT: Just re-read the thread again, I think you believe you will get prosecuted for the W/O Due Care; unlikely as you've got the S59. Certainly in my Force Area (and no doubt others) its one or the other and not both. Getting a S59 is easier as its a statement, letter and PNC form to place marker on the system and serving of the warning letter. If they do then proceed against you for W/O Due Care you can argue abuse of process and defend against it successfully.

I hope you're right. However i do believe they will proceed, but will check with them tomorrow. Could Northants possibly have a different process to other forces in regards to prosecuting and a S59? As the officer gave me a verbal NIP in the car and also said i'm getting a S59 warning.

[mob17]

Originally Posted by xs2man

Sounds almost like a "best case scenario" then. No fine, no prosecution, just have to watch yourself for 12 months.

Sounds like a win to me?

I would jump for joy if that was the case!

[ihpj]

Originally Posted by mob17

My driving habits? It's a bit unfair to judge me from this one scenario, or even my 6 points. You have no idea what the 6 points were for or what happened. So please don't assume.

Sorry if I came across as judgy; I wasn't. I was merely offering up a view of the facts. All I was merely highlighting is that a Magistrate is likely only to see that you have 6 points (you have agreed you committed driving offences which necessitated points and shows your driving has fallen short of expected standards previously) and here you are again, but this time before a Court again for driving.

If, and it is a if, the Police take you to Court, you can bet how they could build a case to show your driving habits in negative light to the Court. Guidelines state that you should always look to go with most substantive offence when considering prosecution as having two bites of the cherry can be argued as abuse of process. I'd be genuine surprised if you got hit with both sticks. If this were to happen, you definitely need a very good traffic solicitor to help you. As given your driving record right now, the offence itself and your driving record I reckon you could face serious and substantial penalty.


Truth rarely comes out at Court, it's about how you present your case. What would concern me right now is that you have a S59 and impending prosecution it'd be interesting what your Ins. Co. do to your risk and premium - because I'm sure you've declared this

[xenon]

Originally Posted by mob17

I would also argue i was actually caring more driving this way as opposed to daily slow driving, as i was concentrating more.

I think that would be a fairly unwise argument.

[mob17]

Originally Posted by ihpj

Sorry if I came across as judgy; I wasn't. I was merely offering up a view of the facts. All I was merely highlighting is that a Magistrate is likely only to see that you have 6 points (you have agreed you committed driving offences which necessitated points and shows your driving has fallen short of expected standards previously) and here you are again, but this time before a Court again for driving.

If, and it is a if, the Police take you to Court, you can bet how they could build a case to show your driving habits in negative light to the Court. Guidelines state that you should always look to go with most substantive offence when considering prosecution as having two bites of the cherry can be argued as abuse of process. I'd be genuine surprised if you got hit with both sticks. If this were to happen, you definitely need a very good traffic solicitor to help you. As given your driving record right now, the offence itself and your driving record I reckon you could face serious and substantial penalty.


Truth rarely comes out at Court, it's about how you present your case. What would concern me right now is that you have a S59 and impending prosecution it'd be interesting what your Ins. Co. do to your risk and premium - because I'm sure you've declared this

Fair play, i guess that's how the lovely magistrates will see it, justice at it's best. Think i'm just going to sit tight and hope that nothing comes in the post. I might pop in to the station and try and get more info.

Do you have to declare a S59? I thought it was just convictions/points etc? Obviously my insurance will go up as it's already high due to previous points

Originally Posted by xenon

I think that would be a fairly unwise argument.

Yeah i thought that after posting. Think i'll keep shtum.