[Wedge1967]

Originally Posted by secretsquirrel

I'm not sure that will be the case, but we'll see. I have a suspicion that many Mx buyers are going to jump pretty quickly on the tuning bandwagon. The demographic has more disposable income than a e9x owner. I also expect tuning for it to take off pretty quickly as more companies look to BMW turbo tuning. They will see that BMW has a long term commitment to turbos and the profit margin (at least initially) of M car tuning will be too hard to ignore. That's what I'm hoping for anyway...

Good point...

[mithiral67]

Originally Posted by A418t81

No, they are larger, just not hugely so. The N54 has two TD03L-10T and the S55 has two TF035HL-13T.

When did this info come out, can you provide the link?

[Aerotest]

Originally Posted by A418t81

No, they are larger, just not hugely so. The N54 has two TD03L-10T and the S55 has two TF035HL-13T. The H stands for high flow and the turbine wheel itself is larger. 10T and 13T are the compressor wheel designations respectively as well. They are bigger turbos....how much more power they can make remains to be seen, but they aren't as capable as say RBs.

Looking at compressor maps, the 10Ts are good for around 275 CFM maxed out which makes sense as the two of them on completely maxed out stock turbo cars is up around 480 ish whp. The compressors are also slightly held back by the hotside as well.

I imagine that the hotside will be the limiting factor on the S55 turbos as well and from the compressor maps I can find on the 13T paired with a TD04 hotside (which is bigger and flows better), the CFM appears to be substantially higher at around 350-360. Again, I think the compressors are going to be more hotside limited in stock configuration than the N54 setup, but from what Rob Beck has said, the turbine housings appear to be much more amenable to putting in substantially larger hardware which should make for some pretty cool stock frame upgrades.

To add....75cfm x 2 on a std day (.076) air density is 11.4 lbft/ min additional flow. If the hot side can hit that portion of the map that means 110 whp over the n54 turbos. Thats not a trivial increase IMO.

[nightops]

Originally Posted by bmwm3redblack

10000000000000000000000000% TRUE!!!
The only car right now to change is GTR!!!

this- with all the mods you have on your car its going to be hard to find something comparable. the new cts v is looking interesting though.

[Glowin]

Originally Posted by Allen@PTF

The M4 is potentially going to be a great platform as long as the DME will play along. Everything about the S55's spec sheet suggests it's suited to handle A LOT of power

Yeah, I hope BMW doesn't go the route of Audi. They're now doing some auto checks I've read with the DME's, and flagging cars as "TD1", their lingo for being tuned, and there's no way around it I'm reading, even going with a big name tune like APR.

Haven't heard any of that (other than BMW slipping in their shadow tuner codes, which were easy enough to get around / erase before going in for service) with BMW's, or has there been any with newer models like the M5 or M6, which are turbo'd and easy to tune?

[BMWM.D.]

Originally Posted by Glowin

Yeah, I hope BMW doesn't go the route of Audi. They're now doing some auto checks I've read with the DME's, and flagging cars as "TD1", their lingo for being tuned, and there's no way around it I'm reading, even going with a big name tune like APR.

Haven't heard any of that (other than BMW slipping in their shadow tuner codes, which were easy enough to get around / erase before going in for service) with BMW's, or has there been any with newer models like the M5 or M6, which are turbo'd and easy to tune?

I personally haven't heard anything coming down the pipeline from BMW as far as cracking down on tuning, etc. We usually hear about this type of stuff when it happens, as the dealerships need to be the middle man in this type of situation.

I think the Audi tuning crackdown came from major problems with warranty claims on their turbo 4 cylinder engines. Same thing happened with GM with their Duramax engines. Now GM wants to see calibration numbers prior to any major powertrain warranty claim on all their cars/trucks.

I think we can thank the reliability of the N54 to handle big power increases without failure for BMW's relaxed take on the tuning issue.

[neilvosko]

hey BMWM.D. i like the fact that you roll a C6 and a N54, which do you like more ?

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

Originally Posted by A418t81

No, they are larger, just not hugely so. The N54 has two TD03L-10T and the S55 has two TF035HL-13T. The H stands for high flow and the turbine wheel itself is larger. 10T and 13T are the compressor wheel designations respectively as well. They are bigger turbos....how much more power they can make remains to be seen, but they aren't as capable as say RBs.

Thanks for this interesting info, I hadn't read the specs of the S55 turbos anywhere before.

However, that also means for people like myself with highly modded N54 that in order to even come close to our current power levels, the new M3/M4 would also have to be modded substantially, most likely with larger turbos. That makes it rather unattractive for me to swap to the M3/M4, at least for the foreseeable future - I would pay more (acquisition price, insurance, taxes) for less performance.

Maybe saving for a McLaren long term is a better option.

Alpina_B3_Lux

[BQTuning]

Originally Posted by A418t81

No, they are larger, just not hugely so. The N54 has two TD03L-10T and the S55 has two TF035HL-13T. The H stands for high flow and the turbine wheel itself is larger. 10T and 13T are the compressor wheel designations respectively as well. They are bigger turbos....how much more power they can make remains to be seen, but they aren't as capable as say RBs.

Looking at compressor maps, the 10Ts are good for around 275 CFM maxed out which makes sense as the two of them on completely maxed out stock turbo cars is up around 480 ish whp. The compressors are also slightly held back by the hotside as well.

I imagine that the hotside will be the limiting factor on the S55 turbos as well and from the compressor maps I can find on the 13T paired with a TD04 hotside (which is bigger and flows better), the CFM appears to be substantially higher at around 350-360. Again, I think the compressors are going to be more hotside limited in stock configuration than the N54 setup, but from what Rob Beck has said, the turbine housings appear to be much more amenable to putting in substantially larger hardware which should make for some pretty cool stock frame upgrades.

So, on the other hand, turbo upgrades for the N54 such as VTT and RB's still surpass the S55 Turbos ?

[BMWM.D.]

Originally Posted by neilvosko

hey BMWM.D. i like the fact that you roll a C6 and a N54, which do you like more ?

Kind of hard to compare since the C6 is cammed and blown, and makes ~280 rwhp more than the BMW (706 vs. 425) Both are a ton of fun to drive depending on my mood. The E90 is smooth and refined -- the C6 is a monster. Both are great for trips/highway driving. The E90 is really controllable and easy to throw around. The Corvette tries to kill me usually. Two of the best platforms out there to play with, though. IMO, anyway.

[JETmn]

Originally Posted by vase330

That guy can't drive for shit. I you think a 335i even tuned is anywhere near even a stock GTR thats laughable man. I have a buddy who has one, and its not even close. I love my BMW as the next guy, but lets leave the joke aside and stock hallucinating about playing on the same level here.

You guys need to read what I wrote, it stayed with the GTR in the twisties. On the straights it was no contest. Obviously it was 280whp vs 600 whp, but he did say he had to be over 50% throttle to keep up with me and he was impressed :P I have had a much faster car before and seriously considered a GTR before I got my 335.

[mithiral67]

i considered a GTR until i drove one, then I couldnt stand them.

[joec500]

Originally Posted by mithiral67

i considered a GTR until i drove one, then I couldnt stand them.

I noticed you used to own a 997 Turbo, why did you sell it. I am thinking of buying one as they are getting to reasonable prices now.

[mithiral67]

Originally Posted by joec500

I noticed you used to own a 997 Turbo, why did you sell it. I am thinking of buying one as they are getting to reasonable prices now.

It’s a long explanation, see PM

[vase330]

Please do tell, inquiring minds want to know. Cliff Notes version will do for us.

[mithiral67]

LOL, you asked

Two things you learn about a 911 turbo, if you buy one, everyone you know will ask you about it. If you sell it, everyone you know will ask you about it. And being I made the switch from the 911 to a 335is, I had a lot of explaining to do. So here is a write up I did back when I sold it to explain myself, so forgive the tense. Let me know if you have any more questions.

Honestly, for the price, if the car had say 15k miles, was more button down, and had a newer interior, the costs would have been justified.


The short answer, the age of the car and the effects of that were too much to overcome the awesomeness of the car.

The long answer is below.

It was a series of events. I have always been a fan of driving one car all the time, not having a daily driver and then a separate fun car. I would rather put all the funds towards one. A 3 series has filled that roll for me well as I bought three new ones in a row. As my income went up a bit in 9 years while essentially keeping the same car costs, I thought it time to treat myself. So I went with a used 07 911 with 37k miles and dumped 10k of mods into it and was left with a very fast car that could hold its own against virtually anything I would run into on the road. And I loved the car, still do, was a dream of mine for 25 years.

However, after buying the car I some what unexpectedly moved and my commute went up 5 times and the idea of putting 15-18k miles a year on the 911 makes costs go up and leave me with a 100,000 mile 911 turbo after 3-4 years, which likely wouldn’t sell well.

So I decided to get a winter/daily driver and test drove a comparatively inexpensive 09 mini that was fun as heck and much more civilized compared to the roughness of the 911 (600hp boxer engines aren't the smoothest). It would be prefect for winter and daily drive. But the mini was almost too good. It had 10k more miles than my 911 and was still rock solid and button down. Where the 911, with the striped down body and the stiff suspensions creaked and rattled over most bumps. It wasn’t excessive, just the effect of it being a 5 year old car with impressive handling with 45k miles on it.

That whole process put doubt in my decision to get the car and I started focusing more on the things about the car that bothered me (had been ignoring them). I am guessing these are what you are wondering about in order of importance to me.

• Used car vs. new. I just love new cars that only I have ever owned. The car had the general wear and tear of a used car, but honestly, the 40k mile 335i I traded in was in better shape than the 911 from the paint to the interior (took me about 5 months to find this one).
• Rattles – see above, driving the 5 hours home after buying the 335is in Ohio was amazing. The 911 is very much like a bmw in its ability to dampen impacts, but just to a much firmer level. That being said, after so many miles of that stiffer ride, interior parts have started to make some noise. It’s so nice being back in a car that makes no creaks or rattles even over the roughest roads.
• Dated interior – Porsche is always slow to update things and it shows on the 997. They did upgrade the center console in 09, but even the 2012 look identical on the inside as my 07 other than that center console. A lot of people commented on how old the interior looked compare to most cars. I actually went and looked at some pictures of 997s a week ago with a little sadness for selling it and as soon as I saw the interior pictures I stopped looking. I again was happy I went back to a newer car.
• Power – When I had it tuned, the power jumped from 480 to 600hp and it was more fun. For me, at a certain point, adding more power to a car doesn’t translate to a faster car on the streets because you don’t have the space or speed limits to let the higher power shine. So when I went from 300 to 420 on my 335i, it was like night and day for daily driving. But on the 911, it felt more like the difference between cobb stage 1 and stage 2, because the added power only shined in 3rd gear and up. And if I was doing that, I was double any speed limit by me (55mph). I know the faster you go the more impact the higher hp has as friction and gearing take more of an effect. But I don’t track my cars and rarely break 100mph, so the benefit of the 911 starts getting lost. I knew I could be content with 500ish hp every day of the week. And honestly, how much do I even use that.
• Clutch – it was assisted and was pretty bad. You couldn’t launch the car well unless you dumped it at very high rpms. Was very annoying, never liked it. For $4-6k you can remove the assist, but more costs to an already expensive car. I am shocked at how bad that was being back in a bmw.
• AWD – yes it was better than RWD in a straight line and dry, but nothing like I expected. I could still break it loss with easy, but less predictable. Also the AWD did loss some fun from a rwd. In the end though, it didn’t feel like it had the benefits to out weigh the extra weight and more stuff that could break. And nothing is more terrifying than taking a corner and have all four tires break loss. Instead of counter steering like losing traction in a RWD car, you just get sideways with a puckered ass and flashes of your insurance costs going up.
• Cost – I couldn’t justify the 911 and its 60% more costs a month to own compared to the 2011 bmw 335is (850 miles on it, never sold to a customer at $12k under invoice). So, for the cash I am going to get off selling the mods from the 911 turbo, I will push the 335is as best I can to get it back to something close to the stock 911 and pocket the monthly savings. (I actually got within about 50 hp of the 911 with a power band that pulled to 7k rpms vs the 911 having power drop after 5,500) And I won’t have to stress about something breaking on a $140k car.

There are a lot of things about it that were amazing, like the attention. The fact that every person from age 4-84 loved the car. I would drive by families and hear kids that couldn’t even name 5 car makes turn to their parents and say that liked my car or even yell out that the loved my car. Folks would pull up to me on the highway and give me the thumbs up. It was an attention whore.

All that being said, I am so happy with the 335is. After about 15 seconds of driving, it felt like I had come home. BMWs are a very tamed version of the 911 and despite pretending I am a racecar driver, I prefer the softer sports coupe vs. a hard car super/sports car.

Here's my write up on the 911 comparing all my bmws to the 911, but only after 400 miles.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694095

Here's my dyno results from the tune. You can see the power by 50 whop after 5k rpms

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=740463

Here's a write up on my 335is
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=847231

Cheers,
James

[uberbeast21]

997 turbo! tune that thing up and its a monster even though it already is haha

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by mithiral67

i considered a GTR until i drove one, then I couldnt stand them.

Funny, I felt the exact opposite after my test drives. The Porsche was too smooth, too quiet, too boring in some way for me. The GT-R was a much more visceral experience, which to me is what makes the driving experience more special for my particular tastes

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by JETmn

You guys need to read what I wrote, it stayed with the GTR in the twisties. On the straights it was no contest. Obviously it was 280whp vs 600 whp, but he did say he had to be over 50% throttle to keep up with me and he was impressed :P I have had a much faster car before and seriously considered a GTR before I got my 335.

Read what you wrote & don't buy that the 335 can keep up in the "twisties" . The unbiased Lighting Lap's is run on the 4 mile long Grand Course at VIR. The BMW 335i is listed in 90th place @ 3:13.2. The GT-R is in 9th place 2:53.2. The top BMW finish is 47th.

[mithiral67]

Originally Posted by A418t81

Funny, I felt the exact opposite after my test drives. The Porsche was too smooth, too quiet, too boring in some way for me. The GT-R was a much more visceral experience, which to me is what makes the driving experience more special for my particular tastes

Yea, don't get me wrong, car's amazing, but each to their own. I get why folks love them, they are monsters.

[ASAP]

Problem with the M4 at the moment...

1. Rumors of smaller turbos than N54, I can see the reasoning behind this in terms of responsiveness for the track but in terms of power it's a bad sign.
2. The car is running 18 + pounds of boost stock, the N54 ran 8 lol... if the M4 truly has smaller turbos, this car will not ever make the same power as a tuned N54 on the stock turbos.
3. Water to Air Intercooler is not cheaply or easily upgradeable.
4. All F generation cars have absurdly difficult ecu's to tune/crack... ask Cobb why we don't have a single F series accessport yet.
5. That damn steering system better be their best version of EPS ever...

Positives -
1. Full LSD
2. DCT
3. Closed Deck Block (this is bad ass)
4. Looks like a solid power curve (albeit with limited power)
5. Lighter

Just going by what we know now and looking deep into the details, I have a bad feeling about this car like I did about the F30 335i (and was right)...

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Briancanadiano

Wait until they come out with software to tune those twins that are already running at 18psi then see if the 335i will keep up.

definition of contradiction right there lol

Originally Posted by Allen@PTF

The M4 is potentially going to be a great platform as long as the DME will play along. Everything about the S55's spec sheet suggests it's suited to handle A LOT of power

That part about the DME that you mentioned is extremely important.

Originally Posted by Wedge1967

Blind assumptions. We know so little about this car at this point in time and to assume you can turn up the power on this car like you can with an N54 is just that, an assumption. Let's just hope you're right and this car will be easy to modify to 600 whp. The only issue is it will be a few years before the prices on the used ones drop enough for people to start taking an interest in modifying them to that level.

Good points.

Originally Posted by deathbunny

I agree they will not have as much overhead for tuning as the n54 turbos do. However I don't see how they could possibly be smaller than our turbos and be putting out 18psi stock. I just don't see any OEM turbos getting worked that hard from the factory, doesn't make sense.

Another good point, who really knows...

Originally Posted by mithiral67

I thought folks were using the N20 pressure sensor on the n54 because ours doesn't support psi above 20ish while the N20 does. Meaning, the n20 regularly hits that high of psi. Also, quoting the 18 psi doesn't help much as that could be at 3k rpms where that much psi is a breeze for smaller turbos.

Yes, but even if they are stock N54 Td03 size or even a tiny bit larger... how much better could this be?

Originally Posted by mithiral67

We need more info on the turbos to see how it compares, this is based off of car and driver. My guess is that bwm needed to keep throttle response as tight a possible and picked a turbo size that's just at the edge of reliable for 75k miles that hit the power goals they want with the fastest spool time as possible.

Dead on!

Originally Posted by A418t81

No, they are larger, just not hugely so. The N54 has two TD03L-10T and the S55 has two TF035HL-13T. The H stands for high flow and the turbine wheel itself is larger. 10T and 13T are the compressor wheel designations respectively as well. They are bigger turbos....how much more power they can make remains to be seen, but they aren't as capable as say RBs.

Looking at compressor maps, the 10Ts are good for around 275 CFM maxed out which makes sense as the two of them on completely maxed out stock turbo cars is up around 480 ish whp. The compressors are also slightly held back by the hotside as well.

I imagine that the hotside will be the limiting factor on the S55 turbos as well and from the compressor maps I can find on the 13T paired with a TD04 hotside (which is bigger and flows better), the CFM appears to be substantially higher at around 350-360. Again, I think the compressors are going to be more hotside limited in stock configuration than the N54 setup, but from what Rob Beck has said, the turbine housings appear to be much more amenable to putting in substantially larger hardware which should make for some pretty cool stock frame upgrades.

Interesting... I wish we knew more.