[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Digital.James

I dont believe that's his car. He has a carbon fiber hood and trunk from what i recall.

That was what I was looking for but couldn't tell in the image. But seeing how he had a black coupe and has disappeared, I thought I would mention it.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Evo8MRto335I

I have had many turbos rebuilt in the past. This is nothing to be scare off, you should have no problems sending the turbo units to have then rebuilt for $250-$400 each depending the damage part. It is very unusual to have both turbos failiing simultaneously.

The picture just shows a lot of smoke out of that BMW but a bad seal/bad bearing could cause the turbo to just dump oil from the exhaust.

Also, In my experience when your turbo breaks it doesn't mean that the engine will fail at all..You might get smoky exhaust,dirt 02 sensors,maybe oily intercooler pipes but far from having to replace the whole engine.

Exactly, I too have had turbos fail and a turbo swap with a rebuild got me going again. Well, when I didn't upgarde everything.

[ironic]

sigh...this stuff scares me

[MBE93]

[QUOTE=hotrod182;2560115]They had various studies, and I don't remember the figures, but I would venture to say if you bought every part seperately for the 335i, it would probably be $150,000-$200,000. I'm sure some experts in the field can chime in on those figures. [QUOTE]

That's it - I'm going to buy as many as I can afford and part them out. Or take them apart and sell them for NOS 15 years from now.


By the way, one thing holds true with fast cars and horsepower no matter what: You play, you pay.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by ironic

sigh...this stuff scares me

It is supposed to. That is the purpose of this thread. Doom and gloom baby!

shiv

[Richwm]

Originally Posted by ArmyBimmerDude

Wasn't he proud of the fact that he ran 91/93 with a race gas tune?

That won't blow your turbo's it will just melt your pistons.

Not a BMW story but I think it is still relevant
Back in 1996 I had a Eclipse GST running 20 Psi of boost on stock a turbo. At higher rpms it would run out of boost and everyone said it would be fine, at about 25k miles on my way home from work I got on it a little hard going up hill then suddenly lost power and when I looked in my rear view mirror all I saw was a big smoke screen behind me I turned off the motor and coasted to a stop. I lost 2 quarts of Mobil-1 in about 5-10 seconds. I took it to one of the turners in Canoga Park and he said that I over speeded the turbo and compressor contacted the housing and grenaded it. Well after about $7k I had a new custom 20G turbo and a new intercooler and new intake tubes and a new throttle body and was putting 281 Hp at the wheels.

Oh and BTW the CATS and the O2 sensors were fine.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Richwm

That won't blow your turbo's it will just melt your pistons.

Actually, it will cause detonation which can crack a ring land and send it right into the turbine wheel which is spinning a few hundred thousand RPM. This will damage the turbo in no time flat.

shiv

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

It is supposed to. That is the purpose of this thread. Doom and gloom baby!

shiv

[Digital.James]

Originally Posted by scalbert

That was what I was looking for but couldn't tell in the image. But seeing how he had a black coupe and has disappeared, I thought I would mention it.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127590


He also had blacked out window trim. That car from the first pic has the chrome trim.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Digital.James

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127590


He also had blacked out window trim. That car from the first pic has the chrome trim.

Good point, missed that.

[V1.47fan]

Originally Posted by Evo8MRto335I

I have had many turbos rebuilt in the past. This is nothing to be scare off, you should have no problems sending the turbo units to have then rebuilt for $250-$400 each depending the damage part. It is very unusual to have both turbos failiing simultaneously.

The picture just shows a lot of smoke out of that BMW but a bad seal/bad bearing could cause the turbo to just dump oil from the exhaust.

Also, In my experience when your turbo breaks it doesn't mean that the engine will fail at all..You might get smoky exhaust,dirt 02 sensors,maybe oily intercooler pipes but far from having to replace the whole engine.

Agreed.

[PresaMat]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

Interestingly enough, I had my fuel pump recall done this week. Took it in with the JB2H installed. There were no issues, and absolutely no faults stored even though I had some 1/2 engine lights/limps trying to run 2HH pills initially at Famosa last month. I was very curious, and then relieved to know that nothing was stored.

FYI: On that vehicle printout above, the low fuel pressure on injector opening is indicative of a failing fuel pump.

I used to have long cranking on restart with my car, but that was around 10months ago, and just went away on its own. My car was always strong running so I wasn't concerned. Kind of interested to know if the new fuel pump might make my car slower, but I never got around to doing a before/after Vbox run.

Whats interesting is ive had multiple piggybacks (original vishnu XEDE - i was one of the first testers and had multiple CELs due to a bad resistor, procede (no CELs), JB2/HHR). Ive thrown CELs for different things multiple times (never non human error though). Had my DME checked multiple times too and nothing stored.

[Kbueno]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people are going to find when they take off their tunes, the turbos will still whine excessively, indicating they are already damaged, and its just a matter of time before they fail.



How noisey are they?
Here is a sample of what some of the 335i failed turbos initially sound like:

The thing about the turbos as they begin to fail is the risk of taking out other very expensive components. Remember, not only are the cats damaged, but so are all the O2 sensors, etc, etc. Nothing on a BMW is cheap. A doctor friend of mine just had the Cats on his 07 M5 replaced. Wholesale price for the job was $10,000! N54 manifolds/cats aren't quite this fancy, but the prices are nonetheless eye opening!

Ummm, this post scared the crap out of me as alot of people have the whine noise...see the whistlin dixie thread. In addition, i have heard this same whine (but not to the extent heard in this video) from a stock NEW 335i. I think you need to back up a claim like this rather than speculating that this whine noise is a prelude to turbo failure.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by 335lvr

Ummm, this post scared the crap out of me as alot of people have the whine noise...see the whistlin dixie thread. In addition, i have heard this same whine (but not to the extent heard in this video) from a stock NEW 335i. I think you need to back up a claim like this rather than speculating that this whine noise is a prelude to turbo failure.

I will post the recordings of the turbo noise from inside the car. Believe it or not, it doesn't sound as bad from the engine compartment because of all the top end valvetrain/injector noises masking it.

As far as other stock turbos failing, the point of this information is to let you know that the turbos are a somewhat weak point. If a stock turbo fails, it is more than likely that one with 50% greater stress on it will fail even sooner. And if you take your car in for warranty work on the turbos, you can bet the area field service engineers will scrutinize you car for tampering. Secondly, when you take it in and "think" that your DME is clear, you never know what they might actually see, that is the point of showing part of that 11 page printout on a modded car.

What is important to know here is what the consequences are. You are right, the V2 coupe owner had down pipes and removed them to take the car in for warranty coverage. However, in the process of taking the car in for "warranty" service. the oil dumped into those factory cats and ruined them too. Ouch. These are all cars with less than 15000 miles or so. So its just a matter of time, you will be hearing more about these failures, and BMWs response to them.

Doom and gloom is not the purpose here. The purpose is to let everyone know that this can happen to anyone with a N54, that is correct. And that is the problem, if it happens to you, and you just happen to be modified, there is a LOT of $$$$ in jeopardy here. You might think its not likely to happen to you...but then again, not too many of us are prepared for these kind of failures and $ risk.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

As far as other stock turbos failing, the point of this information is to let you know that the turbos are a somewhat weak point.

The purpose is to let everyone know that this can happen to anyone with a N54, that is correct. And that is the problem, if it happens to you, and you just happen to be modified, there is a LOT of $$$$ in jeopardy here.

IMO, the turbos are always the weakest link.

As for the reason for the thread, you are correct, everyone should be aware of the possibilities. Although most will never have an issue, there will be those unfortunate ones which inevitably will and they need to be prepared.

[Orb]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Wow, the drama and not entirely accurate information.

Anyway, lets dissect this as a single user turbo failure does not pronounce a wide spread epidemic.

First of all on turbo whine. Bearing whine is not evidence of impending failure. The severity of the whine needs to be taken into account as well as the conditions. Based on threads here, this is a known stock matter with these snails and BMW is aware. If light whine is occurring at light load and low revs, it may be normal. If it is loud all of the time, then there is a potential issue. But a single sound is not all encompassing. Heck, I have seen turbos whine for 100k miles before failing (non-BMW).

Additionally, running 15 PSI may not be the choke point which Orb has alluded previously. I am not saying it is or isn't. But there is evidence that it is not. If 18 - 19 PSI is held until redline, then 15 PSI is not a choke point. We have two individuals who have witnessed this occurring; not be, I am not that brave. That said, people do have options by running a tamer tune or even with the PROcede, just drop the UT values as revs climb ending with 0% - 50% at 7000 RPM.

Please, let’s stop designating a PSI level; as 15 PSI at 3000 RPM is not the same as 15 PSI at 7000 RPM. There is not real danger in running higher boost at lower revs on the turbos (maybe the engine as you are at peak torque). To generate the same boost at 7k revs as you did at 3k revs would take common shaft speeds about 3 times faster.

We also do not know the nature of the handling of the vehicle. Was it driven hard while cold and/or put away wet.

Here are some facts:

Failing turbos almost never damage the engine.

Failing turbos are not a guarantee oil clogged cats.

Lastly, why pay $14k to replace the turbos and catalytic converters when it already hade DP's? I mean, the warranty is already gone, why not take the opportunity to upgrade the turbos. You can get a custom setup for less than the cost of the cats and turbos. At a minimum, you could have a private shop handle everything for significantly less. IMO, this just does not add up as the owner had and exhaust and DP's and I am assuming they were catless. If so, only the rear cats would be replaced and at that point, why do it?

I guess if/when mine fail, regardless of whats available, options would be explored.

I agree with that we shouldn’t use generic 14 PSI to describe a tune as it is misleading. We should also be talking boost at the turbo as well but not to particle. I do believe the Proceed has the by far the most boost at higher RPM so maybe saying 14 PSI tune is better in this case. In the end the guy has no warranty and that the only thing that matters. All because of per said PROcede tune.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Actually, it will cause detonation which can crack a ring land and send it right into the turbine wheel which is spinning a few hundred thousand RPM. This will damage the turbo in no time flat.

shiv

The gloom is the poor guys who has to deal with this using your tune. I’m sure it will not be the last. Unfortunately, the finger points to you even if you’re not at fault but I doubt that so we will wait if we see a post analysis of the pre failure or blown turbo.

I see this whole thread turning into a Shiv back peddle cover up.

Orb

[Kbueno]

Originally Posted by Orb

I agree with that we shouldn’t use generic 14 PSI to describe a tune as it is misleading. We should also be talking boost at the turbo as well but not to particle. I do believe the Proceed has the by far the most boost at higher RPM so maybe saying 14 PSI tune is better in this case. In the end the guy has no warranty and that the only thing that matters. All because of per said PROcede tune.



The gloom is the poor guys who have deal with this using your tune. I’m sure it will not be the last. Unfortunately, the finger points to you even if you’re not at fault but I doubt that so we will wait if we see a post analysis of the pre failure or blown turbo.

I see this whole thread turning into a Shiv back peddle cover up.

Orb

Oh, boy..that's a lot of finger-pointing when there is no evidence to support it. Let's wait to see what actually failed mechanically...and get feedback from the car's owner.

[OpenFlash]

It's okay. I expect no less from Orb.

[Tuned335i]

Originally Posted by Orb

I see this whole thread turning into a Shiv back peddle cover up.

All of the piggyback ECU tunes are capable of producing roughly the same psi, and nearly doubling the stock psi is potentially problematic regardless of who's ECU tune you're running. At least Shiv's following the forum. Yes Terry is banned but I don't see anyone other piggyback manufacturers offering comment.

This thread just brings the entire argument of "pay to play" back to the front of everyone's mind in a very sensationalistic way. Everybody knows that if you blow up your drivetrain in a catastropic way, the dealer's going to take a look at your car fairly closely.

We all get lulled into a false sense of security because of all the feel-good dynos, "kill-reports", and track results and we love how the car performs and (some of us) forget that there's always the potential for problems of varying cost. The OP's subject car obviously had some sort of a serious problem. You have to believe that every once in a while, there's going to be a post like this.

I'm not changing anything. I should have taken the over on 5 pages today...

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Orb

All because of per said PROcede tune.

V3 is the one which really runs more boost at higher revs. Even V2 had some taper and was more conservative, when used correctly, than the JB2HR.

Do you really think it is fair to blame a single tune at this point? Heck, this same thing could occur with a Dinan flash. And with the additional modifications, Dinan could have said no to warranty coverage. Now, if a single tune starts showing repeatable failures, sure, the finger pointing is justified.

As I am sure you are aware, the same thing could, and probably has, happened in a stock vehicle. We just wouldn't hear it on here as there would be no point to visiting.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Dinan could have said no to warranty coverage.

Unlikely if the purchaser stays within the scope of the warranty protection.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Bubbles

Unlikely if the purchaser stays within the scope of the warranty protection.

As I stated, "with the additional modifications". The subject vehicle had DP's, exhaust and intake. I suspect Dinan might take exception to these. Regardless, it was just hypothetical.