[Glowin]

So I've been trying to hunt down the cause of my timing corrections for the past couple of weeks, and haven't figured it out yet. My first set of pulls I did with 94 octane gas, on Aggressive as well as Drive maps, and got timing corrections. But I get no codes. Here's the Aggressive log (the Drive map one is the same) on 94:

http://www.datazap.me/u/glowin/2-agg...hevron?2-15-22

So then tonight, I put in a different brand's 91 octane, and did a few pulls with the Sport 2+ map, and I'm still getting corrections in all cylinders.

Here's that log:

http://www.datazap.me/u/glowin/2-spo...ro-can?2-15-22
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Then this theory dawned on me, and I wanted to run it by you guys. Could the Bosch spark plugs be causing timing corrections in all cylinders?

Here's the background:

I've got a 2008 335i MT and I'm running the Stage 2+ Cobb maps on it, as I've got all the bolt-ons except for exhaust. The car only has 30,000 miles on it. I do a few track days a year with it.

Last summer at 24,000 miles, I changed all the spark plugs to the ones most people buy - the Bosch OEM equivalents (not from dealer).

But I recall reading one of the mods posting on the forum that they don't use these, as they've heard of issues with them (misfires though, so I wonder if I'm ok if I don't have misfires?).

See posts 24 onwards by Dackelone: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=695797

Could the plugs be causing my problems I am wondering? How can I exclude them as a cause, without going out and buying brand new plugs from the dealer?

I'm working with Cobb on this, and their suggestion was to put some race gas in, to see if the corrections go away. It's really hard for me to find, so I'm working on that, but in the meantime, I thought to flush out this theory.

[Tzu]

Alternatively, you could try less boost while still using 94oct.

[pits200]

Originally Posted by Glowin

So I've been trying to hunt down the cause of my timing corrections for the past couple of weeks, and haven't figured it out yet. My first set of pulls I did with 94 octane gas, on Aggressive as well as Drive maps, and got timing corrections. But I get no codes. So then tonight, I put in a different brand's 91 octane, and did a few pulls with the Sport 2+ map, and I'm still getting corrections in all cylinders.

Here's the log:

http://www.datazap.me/u/glowin/3rd-g...15-16-17-18-22
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Then this theory dawned on me, and I wanted to run it by you guys. Here's the background:

I've got a 2008 335i MT and I'm running the Stage 2+ Cobb maps on it, as I've got all the bolt-ons except for exhaust. The car only has 30,000 miles on it. I do a few track days a year with it.

Last summer at 24,000 miles, I changed all the spark plugs to the ones most people buy - the Bosch OEM equivalents (not from dealer).

But I recall reading one of the mods posting on the forum that they don't use these, as they've heard of issues with them (misfires though, so I wonder if I'm ok if I don't have misfires?).

See posts 24 onwards by Dackelone: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=695797

Could the plugs be causing my problems I am wondering? How can I exclude them as a cause, without going out and buying brand new plugs from the dealer?

I'm working with Cobb on this, and their suggestion was to put some race gas in, to see if the corrections go away. It's really hard for me to find, so I'm working on that, but in the meantime, I thought to flush out this theory.

Let's look at this from the other perspective. How many people on here are running the Bosch plugs vs dealer plugs with zero issues between the two. Because they literally are the same plug structure just different markings. So finding a small sample, or even just one other user who claimed to have issues with the Bosch plugs vs. OEM is not going down the right troubleshooting path.

If it is the plugs, it might be because they're fouled, leaking valve cover causes oil leak(this happened to me) or not gapped properly. But I can almost guarantee that if you got new dealer plugs and installed them and new Bosch plugs and installed them you'd have the same issues or it'd fix the problem.

[enrita]

try to lower load to 170 across the board without touching the past 6k taper. you will run around 16-15 psi i guess . I would anyway change the plugs . try the ngk as well.

[Indo Rider]

Originally Posted by pits200

Let's look at this from the other perspective. How many people on here are running the Bosch plugs vs dealer plugs with zero issues between the two. Because they literally are the same plug structure just different markings. So finding a small sample, or even just one other user who claimed to have issues with the Bosch plugs vs. OEM is not going down the right troubleshooting path.

If it is the plugs, it might be because they're fouled, leaking valve cover causes oil leak(this happened to me) or not gapped properly. But I can almost guarantee that if you got new dealer plugs and installed them and new Bosch plugs and installed them you'd have the same issues or it'd fix the problem.

Thank you. Your "other" perspective is the common sense perspective. Never been a lick of hard evidence to support any real difference between dealer sourced plugs or Bosch plugs sourced from elsewhere when the part number is the same. Seems people forget about the scientific method and jump to conclusions far too easily.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

I would say the first step is jut to pull the plugs and have a look at them visually for any abnormalities and make sure the gap is in spec.

Looking at the datalog you did have 1 significant timing pull of 3 degrees. You are likely just on the border of your octane threshold. You could consider just dropping boost down a hair and see what happens too.

I noticed you said 91 octane in your post but your datalog is 94?

[Glowin]

Originally Posted by Tzu

Alternatively, you could try less boost while still using 94oct.

I have. I wasn't clear in my first post, so I've fixed it. I've run both the Drive 2+ map as well as the Aggressive 2+ map on 94, and both show the same corrections. Are you suggesting I run a Stage 2 map?

Originally Posted by enrita

try to lower load to 170 across the board without touching the past 6k taper. you will run around 16-15 psi i guess . I would anyway change the plugs . try the ngk as well.

I've not used ATR at all, and am scared I'd mess something up custom tuning my maps... Or is it not that bad? Any guidance? But running the Drive 2+ map, which is the most conservative of the three, I'd already be running less boost anyway, so is there a point to do this exercise?

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

I would say the first step is jut to pull the plugs and have a look at them visually for any abnormalities and make sure the gap is in spec.

Looking at the datalog you did have 1 significant timing pull of 3 degrees. You are likely just on the border of your octane threshold. You could consider just dropping boost down a hair and see what happens too.

I noticed you said 91 octane in your post but your datalog is 94?

I guess when I get a chance, I'll pull them and see.

Good catch on the mixup. I fixed my OP, and posted up both logs, on the 94 as well as 91. Please take a look at the extra info I posted.

Since I don't have misfires, could gunked up intake valves cause the corrections I'm seeing in all cylinders? I only have 30,000 miles on the car, so I wouldn't have thought I'd be due for walnut blasting already, though the car's been tuned for most of its life with a few track days a year in the past two years...

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Glowin

I have. I wasn't clear in my first post, so I've fixed it. I've run both the Drive 2+ map as well as the Aggressive 2+ map on 94, and both show the same corrections. Are you suggesting I run a Stage 2 map?



I've not used ATR at all, and am scared I'd mess something up custom tuning my maps... Or is it not that bad? Any guidance? But running the Drive 2+ map, which is the most conservative of the three, I'd already be running less boost anyway, so is there a point to do this exercise?



I guess when I get a chance, I'll pull them and see.

Good catch on the mixup. I fixed my OP, and posted up both logs, on the 94 as well as 91. Please take a look at the extra info I posted.

Since I don't have misfires, could gunked up intake valves cause the corrections I'm seeing in all cylinders? I only have 30,000 miles on the car, so I wouldn't have thought I'd be due for walnut blasting already, though the car's been tuned for most of its life with a few track days a year in the past two years...

I've seen both logs. Definitely some timing drops.

We have seen at 30,000 miles gunked intake valves so I would not rule that out.

I would be more interested to have you start at basics and see how your plugs look and to ensure they are in spec but I dont think that may be the issue.

What happens when running 94 octane on a less aggressive map like sport where you ran the 91 octane?

[Glowin]

I ran the Drive 2+ map on 94 Octane actually, which is the most conservative map, and had exact same corrections:

http://www.datazap.me/u/glowin/2-dri...y-pull?2-15-22

[Glowin]

OK, so tonight, I just did a few pulls on the same 91 Octane gas, but on the Stage 0 map. So that's basically stock.

First of all, Before logging, I did a few WOT pulls, which I figure should be enough to let the car adapt to the new map from the Stage 2+ maps?

If that's ok, then this is the shocker... I've got timing corrections in my stock pulls too! A few within one pull. Almost all cylinders are the same, but I think 2 had only one correction.

So WTF does that mean? Aaargghh! Help me please!

http://datazap.me/u/glowin/stage-0-91-petro-can?2-15-22
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[lawwailok]

um... i just flashed my car back to Stage 0 today and back on 91 gas too, getting ready for smog. my timing and corrections look perfect tho.

http://www.datazap.me/u/lawwailok/stock-3rd-gear?1-22

what i've done in past months were boost solenoids, vanos solenoids, NGK plugs, new oem LPFP, PCV valve. oil are 8000 miles old, walnut shell blasting was done 1 year 4 months/10k miles ago.
and my car currently has 62k miles.

[Tzu]

Cobb resets adaptions on every remove/install/map change right? It might be good to start with resetting long term knock adaptations, do 5-6 pulls to give time for DME to learn, then log. Is this what you've been doing?

[135Pats]

It takes a good 3-6 pulls for the DME to fully adapt to a re-flash.

OP you're probably requesting too much load on the more aggressive maps and/or reaching the edge of what your octane can provide for. As others have suggested, pull out some load and see where that gets you. Adding in a few gallons of E85 is outstanding for cleaning up timing, assuming it's an octane issue.

[Joshboody]

I can't run the stock tune on pump without a bunch of corrections. You need to add octane and log the difference. Is this a recent thing?

[Glowin]

Originally Posted by Tzu

Cobb resets adaptions on every remove/install/map change right? It might be good to start with resetting long term knock adaptations, do 5-6 pulls to give time for DME to learn, then log. Is this what you've been doing?

I might have logged too quickly then after switching to the stock map. I turned car on, switched to stock map, then drove it like 10 minutes til it warmed up. Then I did a few half WOT pulls in 3rd gear, and then logged. I'll give it more time then and repeat.

Originally Posted by 135Pats

It takes a good 3-6 pulls for the DME to fully adapt to a re-flash.

OP you're probably requesting too much load on the more aggressive maps and/or reaching the edge of what your octane can provide for. As others have suggested, pull out some load and see where that gets you. Adding in a few gallons of E85 is outstanding for cleaning up timing, assuming it's an octane issue.

How can that be? I've logged using the Drive 2+ map - which is the most conservative for my mods - on 94 Octane, and still had corrections.

And as per my last post, I've now even logged using the Stock map, so boost of only 7 PSI tops, and still had corrections.

Originally Posted by Joshboody

I can't run the stock tune on pump without a bunch of corrections. You need to add octane and log the difference. Is this a recent thing?

This is my first bunch of logs really. Since I never pushed the car in terms of maps vs. recommended octane, I had never thought of checking logs.

How does that make sense though to be getting a bunch of corrections on the stock map? My gas is good here, unlike the ACN stuff you guys have. We have no ethanol around unfortunately, but I might be able to get my hands on some thru a race shop, or get race gas from them, or I'm even toying with using Torco Accelerator.

At this point though, based on what I'm seeing, if I've got corrections in all cylinders, but no codes/limp modes, what are the most likely causes? Can anyone speculate or it's too early?

[Joshboody]

Increasing oct will help point toward fuel as the cause. Apart from this its a guess. A fouled plug won't detonate, but a higher heat range could. Could seafoam the crap out of the cylinders to reduce carbon build up. Maybe the knock sensors. Dirty valves are not it. Anyway octane first.

[Glowin]

Thanks, will start working on that. Thought maybe the 94 octane on the first pulls might have been not great quality, hence why I switched to a different brand and 91, but I still have issues.

Can you please explain how you've ruled out dirty intake valves? The lack of misfires / limp modes / engine running rough symptoms? Of course, I don't want to spend $500 if it's not needed. The dealer I asked, said just to check the condition of the intakes, once they're done pulling it off, I'm already more than halfway there in terms of labor, so I might as well do the walnut blasting at that point. I was hoping if the check was like a $100 thing, then I'd do it for sure, to at least know if it needs it or not.

[Glowin]

So I bounced off Cobb my corrections (and throttle closures) I noticed in the Stock map, and here was their take on it:

"The throttle closures are completely normal on stock (or Stage0) tuning. This is how BMW controls boost. This is a big advantage of tuning because we can actually dial in boost, keep the throttle open, and keep everything much happier."

Since I don't have easy access to race gas, for now, I thought what the heck, let's try the Lucas Octane Booster (read that only Torco, NOS and Lucas are worth trying), and see what happens. I had a blended 93 Octane, and added 2/3 of a bottle of the OB.

Then I did a few logs in the 2+ Drive map and for fun, the 2+ Aggressive map too. To my surprise, my corrections have mostly diminished (I had them in all cylinders and a few per pull, and now it's one or two cylinders, and only one per pull), where in one Aggressive run, there were none at all.

So what does that tell me??? Plugs are ok? Intake valves are clogged up or not?

And what next?

It's the top 5 logs here if you want to look: http://www.datazap.me/u/Glowin

[Joshboody]

welcome to the world of crappy gas. Don't have E85, the only choice is meth or a slow car. I wouldn't run octane boosters... they are messy.

Seafoam the crap out of your cylinders... its fun to see the reactions when speeding down the road with a smoke screen behind you. At a stop light everyone rolls up their windows. I do this every oil change mainly for the smoke show. Put a couple cans through it.

[Glowin]

I didn't know we supposedly have crappy gas here... The thing that's got me puzzled is even on the most conservative map, the Stage 2+ Drive one, I was still seeing corrections.

Now, with the octane booster, they're almost all gone.

So do you think this points out a problem with my intake valves needing cleaning, or rules that out? I only have just over 30,000 miles on the car (most of it tuned on stage 1 though, up to last year when I went 2+)

And what would you actually do going forward? Just keep running the Aggressive map (since its corrections were no worse than on the Drive map) on 94 octane? And when I go to the track, then add Octane Booster for safety?

This Seafoam stuff, is this? http://seafoamsales.com/sea-foam-motor-treatment/

They recommend 3 places to put it in, based on the video. Are you suggesting all, or which ones?

1 - Into Vacuum line (no clue which)
2 - Into oil
3 - Into gas tank

Thanks! Maybe copy my whole post, and reply within its body in CAPS, so it's easier to follow all your answers.

[Joshboody]

I don't see how dirty valves would effect timing. You could try the supposedly colder NGK plugs. Further you get from the refineries worse the gas and much has to do with distribution... is it the same quality after x stops and the as stations mixing correctly... no idea. On 91oct I can barely run 12psi in the summer and not more that 14 in the winter with very low timing especially in the low/mid range.

For seafoam use through the vac line only and after a little idling let the engine stall ingesting a good amount which will soak the tops of the pistons... then the fun begins... more smoke the better! Do it a couple times, then change your oil after driving maybe 50mi.

[Glowin]

Thanks for the insight on the intake valves. Good to hear. Car runs smoothly, and doesn't hesitate when on highway if I get on gas in 6th gear at like 50 MPH (which was one test I read to see if your valves are dirty).

My plugs are almost new, a year old, did them 6000 miles ago, but they are the Bosch OEM equivalents - which shouldn't matter in theory. I have another N54 engine car, whose plugs were done at the dealer a few months ago - if it's worth the hassle, I could try to swap plugs between the cars?

Lastly, what would you actually do going forward? Just keep running the Aggressive map (since its corrections were no worse than on the Drive map) on 94 octane? And when I go to the track, then add Octane Booster for safety?

My corrections on 94 Octane were like this, and I heard since they're only a few degrees (engine can pull up to 10), they're not bad enough to worry a lot in everyday driving, since I'm not on WOT a lot. What do you think?
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