[Black Gold]

Interesting post shiv, thanks for commeting.

I'm on my iPhone, but a couple quick questions and will formulate a full post later.

Why have the "updated" versions of the piggys not been marketed to any other platform now that you have the technology?

If other platforms have advanced in their ability to calibrate flash tunes to advanced mods, why would we not expect the same to occur for this platform?

I still don't understand why it seems to be accepted fact that BMW ecu can detect more "tuner codes" or whatever they are called than other platforms. What apecificially is the difference, and what example proves this difference?

FYI, uploading the initial Cobb map and downloading stock on my car took 20 minutes. Updating to the new version 1.01 took 60 seconds.

[BQTuning]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

...With the n54, there is no need to upgrade fuel injectors since the DI fuel injection system has over 200hp worth of extra capacity.....

Love reading your posts, however this statement is gold for me. I guess the only real thing to worry about upgrading is the drivetrain after one has upgraded to high performance CAI, IC, FFE, DP, HFC and OC.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

....No flashing process is without risk. The longer it takes, the longer the exposure to risk. Similarly, the risk in installing the Procede is dropped screws or broken tabs if not done with a reasonable amount of care. There is no risk of damaging the DME or rendering it inoperable....

If possible, there should be a Procede product to plug directly into the OBD port. That would be a hell of alot better than dealing with pins and taking things apart in order to remove it.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

...The only way to achieve invisibility is to actually shield the actual engine values from being seen by the DME. And only piggybacks can do this...

Cobb, do you mind giving some feedback to this statement, of course constructive ? BTW Cobb I feel like a baby and want my candy (07 support)

[quattrosaint]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

Sorry, was addressing OP, and other's question:
"Why is BMW different? As far as I know, NO other platform uses piggy back tuning devices. Mazdaspeed, subaru, mitsu, audi, chevy ALL use ECU flash devices. "

I realize the focus of the thread has changed now with the vendor's need to explain.

Audi tuner MTM uses a piggyback on the new B8 S4. MTM has the closest ties to Audi of any tuner. I think it really comes down to what you want to accomplish. I have been in the Audi world for over 10 years starting with my TAP tuned 01 S4 W/ K04's. I've seen alot of changes in 10 years. APR, GIAC, & REVO all use flash tuning but certainly have their limitations. I have only officially joined the BMW community this week. I'm still learning all the new stuff but it seams Vishnu is the way to go. So when these new beta maps are ironed out and in the proceede when shipped I will buy one. Damn netbook with no CD/DVD player

[themyst]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

Interesting post shiv, thanks for commeting.

I'm on my iPhone, but a couple quick questions and will formulate a full post later.

Why have the "updated" versions of the piggys not been marketed to any other platform now that you have the technology?

If other platforms have advanced in their ability to calibrate flash tunes to advanced mods, why would we not expect the same to occur for this platform?

I still don't understand why it seems to be accepted fact that BMW ecu can detect more "tuner codes" or whatever they are called than other platforms. What apecificially is the difference, and what example proves this difference?

FYI, uploading the initial Cobb map and downloading stock on my car took 20 minutes. Updating to the new version 1.01 took 60 seconds.

one word, OpenECU, theres no money there

How can you expect to make money, provide support, etc. when any asshole can go buy a 150 dollar cable, load up some software and flash the ECU?

[atlharry]

Originally Posted by quattrosaint

Damn netbook with no CD/DVD player

Why do you need one?

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by themyst

one word, OpenECU, theres no money there

How can you expect to make money, provide support, etc. when any asshole can go buy a 150 dollar cable, load up some software and flash the ECU?

Cobb still makes money on mitsu and subie. I am confident in this because i considered both an sti and an evo when looking for a new car and ended up with the 335

Accessport is without a doubt the tune of chioce for both platforms. Open source has its place for those who feel comfortable with it.

Also, procede may not be the name of shiv's tune for the mitsu, but i know he has a piggy for it because i saw it on his website and read an article about it.

[Shellacked135i]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

Cobb still makes money on mitsu and subie. I am confident in this because i considered both an sti and an evo when looking for a new car and ended up with the 335

Accessport is without a doubt the tune of chioce for both platforms. Open source has its place for those who feel comfortable with it.

Also, procede may not be the name of shiv's tune for the mitsu, but i know he has a piggy for it because i saw it on his website and read an article about it.

They make money from the people that dont know or dont want to deal with tuning themselves or seeking out a professional tune with open ECU.

Its options in the world that make it go round. Different strokes for different folks. You want to pay Cobb for an over the counter tune, and support you have that option. You want to buy a cable, and seek a tuner or try a map from online for free, you have that option as well with those cars.

People keeping using the word piggyback in a negative connotation. As much it was in the past and on other platforms, the PROcede uses can integration and have several mediums of communication with the car, offering a lot of control. It cant be compared to old skool piggybacks. Period.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

Interesting post shiv, thanks for commeting.

I'm on my iPhone, but a couple quick questions and will formulate a full post later.

Why have the "updated" versions of the piggys not been marketed to any other platform now that you have the technology?

Frankly, we just haven't had the time. The BMW n54/n55 market is far bigger than the Evo/Subaru/Mazdaspeed market combined. We are currently finalizing our Porsche 996/997 Turbo Procede application. Also ISO/CAN integrated. That is scheduled to be released later this year pending more road testing.

If other platforms have advanced in their ability to calibrate flash tunes to advanced mods, why would we not expect the same to occur for this platform?

It's very possible. But it's not something that is going to happen overnight. And with the n54 on the verge of being discontinued, I suspect newer engines will take up some company resources. Plus, the amount of resource that any company will pour into development depends on how many people adopt that tuning platform in the long run. That's not a question that I can answer.

I still don't understand why it seems to be accepted fact that BMW ecu can detect more "tuner codes" or whatever they are called than other platforms. What apecificially is the difference, and what example proves this difference?

BMW is always a few steps ahead of everyone else when it comes to on-board diagnostics. You can see this whenever a high level diagnostic goes beyond the dealership level. Once BMW AG is involved, all sorts of data can be extracted from the vehicle. Codes that were cleared months ago. Maximum revs. Maximum vehicle speed. How the car was driven over it's life. And so on. So there is no such thing as eliminating all tracks when it comes to DME tuning. There have been claims denied from running aftermarket tunes (even after flashing back to stock). They are isolated up to now. But any tech will tell you that BMW is becoming more strict with things like this. It's gotten to the point where even a routine dealership visit involves hooking your car up to the ISTA network where data is downloaded by BMW AG. I don't see the same kind of thing at my local Subaru or Mitsubishi dealership.

FYI, uploading the initial Cobb map and downloading stock on my car took 20 minutes. Updating to the new version 1.01 took 60 seconds.

Correct. I believe the duration is longer if the ROM file isn't recognized. And with each additional update, you are only rewriting a portion of your ROM file. When you unmarry your AP (go back to stock) and then rewrite your performance file (go back to tune), the same process will be repeated. Or at least that is my understanding.

Just to make it clear, much of our business still involves DME/ECU reflashing. I spent most of the afternoon mapping a S2000 race car on the dyno. 10hrs last week mapping an Evo X running a GT30. And even mapped Robert's fully bolt-on Z06. At the end of the day, I'll use whatever gets me the best results. But with were we are now with the Procede (and where we are going), I don't see my tuning preference for the BMW changing in the foreseeable future. Especially when we can make it do just about whatever we want it to do. Very different than reverse engineering someone else's work and only later seeing where it will (or won't) take you.

2 years ago, we had the choice to start developing our own DME reflash system. In fact, that was one of the reason the additional CAN hardware found it's way on the board of the new Procede. But going down that rabbit hole takes a degree of faith. Faith that you will find what you need to find. And be able to overcome any limitation along the way. Fortunately, we invested our resource into the Product we have today.

Ironically, I recall having a chat with Trey Cobb nearly 10 years ago at some Car and Driver magazine shoot out. We both started our companies at the same time and in the same market. We were talking about the future of ECU tuning and he insightfully said that hardware is the way to go. And that there is no future is software since anything can be pirated. And once it is pirated, it has no value. I think that was the first time we ever agreed on anything. He went off and developed convenient and easy to use transport devices (accessport). We went off and developed piggybacks. I think we have both offered products that have been enjoyed by many people.

Cheers.
shiv

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Shellacked135i

They make money from the people that dont know or dont want to deal with tuning themselves or seeking out a professional tune with open ECU.

Its options in the world that make it go round. Different strokes for different folks. You want to pay Cobb for an over the counter tune, and support you have that option. You want to buy a cable, and seek a tuner or try a map from online for free, you have that option as well with those cars.

People keeping using the word piggyback back, and in reality, a PROcede piggyback is unlike any other. It cant be compared to any other piggyback, period.

And? How does that prevent somebody like Shiv from entering his product into that marketplace if its so advanced and is superior to a flash tune?

[Shellacked135i]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

And? How does that prevent somebody like Shiv from entering his product into that marketplace if its so advanced and is superior to a flash tune?

Who said anything about superiority over a flash tune? Do you wear glasses, put them on.

[quattrosaint]

Originally Posted by atlharry

Why do you need one?

to update to the new maps and load it into the Proceede Via a 9 pin to usb (assume you have to load the driver in to make that cable work) Please correct me if I am wrong. If So it looks like I will order one this Friday.

[ErvGotti]

Also what a lot of people forget is that other suped up car platforms are running Standalone Ecu's or reprogramed ecu's. Meaning no one in the N54/N55 world has really pushed their car's to the limit where we are upgrading fuel pumps and injectors along with the Turbo's and cams and such. Until we get to this point I think there is no superior tuner.

I also agree with shiv in that with the integration of the Canbus system it's like no other piggy we've seen. That being said I am still excited to what Cobb brings to the table.

Also I do believe the DME's are harder to crack/map than the ECU's on the STi's or Evo's or other tuning platforms. Even looking on a BT tool will tell you how many parameter's the DME has on something as simple as the fuel system compared to the STi or Evo's ECU.

IMHO if your fully modded including meth and racegase stick with the piggybacks. They have proven a good solution as the flash tunes as of yet haven't pushed into the upper PSI limits.

If your mild to fairly modded, than the AP might just be your cup of tea. Reliable smooth power that you can install/uninstall without tools. Though you have to realize with any flash tune (Cobb,GIAC,DINAN) is that BMW updates their DME's constantly and that means downloading and sending in your DME map to get it reflashed.

[Shellacked135i]

Originally Posted by quattrosaint

to update to the new maps and load it into the Proceede Via a 9 pin to usb (assume you have to load the driver in to make that cable work) Please correct me if I am wrong. If So it looks like I will order one this Friday.

Yes you need usb to serial and drivers to connect to PROcede....

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

BMW is always a few steps ahead of everyone else when it comes to on-board diagnostics. You can see this whenever a high level diagnostic goes beyond the dealership level. Once BMW AG is involved, all sorts of data can be extracted from the vehicle. Codes that were cleared months ago. Maximum revs. Maximum vehicle speed. How the car was driven over it's life. And so on. So there is no such thing as eliminating all tracks when it comes to DME tuning. There have been claims denied from running aftermarket tunes (even after flashing back to stock). They are isolated up to now. But any tech will tell you that BMW is becoming more strict with things like this. It's gotten to the point where even a routine dealership visit involves hooking your car up to the ISTA network where data is downloaded by BMW AG. I don't see the same kind of thing at my local Subaru or Mitsubishi dealership.



Correct. I believe the duration is longer if the ROM file isn't recognized. And with each additional update, you are only rewriting a portion of your ROM file. When you unmarry your AP (go back to stock) and then rewrite your performance file (go back to tune), the same process will be repeated. Or at least that is my understanding.

Just to make it clear, much of our business still involves DME/ECU reflashing. I spent most of the afternoon mapping a S2000 race car on the dyno. 10hrs last week mapping an Evo X running a GT30. And even mapped Robert's fully bolt-on Z06. At the end of the day, I'll use whatever gets me the best results. But with were we are now with the Procede (and where we are going), I don't see my tuning preference for the BMW changing in the foreseeable future.

I find it odd that the bmw market is larger than the subie and mitsu combined, but i suppose you would know better than i.

As far as the ecu goes, you will have to forgive me if i am not convinced. That answer is similar to what i have seen in other posts, a lot of talk, but no real actual hard data.

For example, "person x brought his car in to this dealership and had this tune. He removed the tune, and it was still diagnosed by the dealer using x technicque pulling x parameters and his warranty was voided"

For me, until i see examples like ^^^^^^^^^^ the rest is just talk.

And finally to your last point, fair enough, best of luck to you guys. I am of the opinion that more is better, but to me, it seems like many here are just not facing up to the inevitable fact that just like other platforms, the flash tune will eventually succeed. I have not seen enough evidence to the contrary as to why it cant be as effective as it has shown to be on platforms ranging from a mazdaspeed3 to an evox to a gtr. IMO bmw is next.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Shellacked135i

Who said anything about superiority over a flash tune? Do you wear glasses, put them on.

Hilarious

The point was that open source didnt prevent cobb from making money in the subie/evo world. If the new technology of the procede is equal or better to a flash, there is no reason that it couldnt compete in that market.

Thats my point. Though shiv has stated that he has focused his efforts elsewhere for the time being.

[Shellacked135i]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

I find it odd that the bmw market is larger than the subie and mitsu combined, but i suppose you would know better than i.

As far as the ecu goes, you will have to forgive me if i am not convinced. That answer is similar to what i have seen in other posts, a lot of talk, but no real actual hard data.

For example, "person x brought his car in to this dealership and had this tune. He removed the tune, and it was still diagnosed by the dealer using x technicque pulling x parameters and his warranty was voided"

For me, until i see examples like ^^^^^^^^^^ the rest is just talk.

And finally to your last point, fair enough, best of luck to you guys. I am of the opinion that more is better, but to me, it seems like many here are just not facing up to the inevitable fact that just like other platforms, the flash tune will eventually succeed. I have not seen enough evidence to the contrary as to why it cant be as effective as it has shown to be on platforms ranging from a mazdaspeed3 to an evox to a gtr. IMO bmw is next.

You must be delusional or in denial.

Firstly, the only popular flash tune is GIAC and they are limited to ~16 PSI.
The only other flash tune that has to come to the market as of THREE WEEKS ago is COBB and they are pegged at 13 PSI, so as of January 26 2011 its quite Obvious which tunes are better as of today in terms of max potential power as there are some 500WHP+ cars rolling around on your negatively concieved piggybacks.

What the future brings is a different story, this car is not your typical subaru ECU, its quite the b*tch to work with.

Ask Cobb, they will tell you what took them so long to get into the market, and it was the ECU.

Ask Giac why the are pegged at 16.5 PSI and there is no one running higher boost, cause everytime they try to push beyond that they run into problems.

Do some research, you need to take whatever you know about subaru and throw it out the window, this car is a different animal. Stop even bringing those manufactures into this forum, they have no place, there is no comparison.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by ErvGotti

Also what a lot of people forget is that other suped up car platforms are running Standalone Ecu's or reprogramed ecu's. Meaning no one in the N54/N55 world has really pushed their car's to the limit where we are upgrading fuel pumps and injectors along with the Turbo's and cams and such. Until we get to this point I think there is no superior tuner.

I also agree with shiv in that with the integration of the Canbus system it's like no other piggy we've seen. That being said I am still excited to what Cobb brings to the table.

Also I do believe the DME's are harder to crack/map than the ECU's on the STi's or Evo's or other tuning platforms. Even looking on a BT tool will tell you how many parameter's the DME has on something as simple as the fuel system compared to the STi or Evo's ECU.

IMHO if your fully modded including meth and racegase stick with the piggybacks. They have proven a good solution as the flash tunes as of yet haven't pushed into the upper PSI limits.

If your mild to fairly modded, than the AP might just be your cup of tea. Reliable smooth power that you can install/uninstall without tools. Though you have to realize with any flash tune (Cobb,GIAC,DINAN) is that BMW updates their DME's constantly and that means downloading and sending in your DME map to get it reflashed.

As i understand it, only the most heavily modded cars are using standalone. The vast vast majority of turbo upgrades (along with fuel system mods) are done using management from flashed ecu's

The BMW update issue appears to only be a concern if you are constantly in the dealership getting some sort of software update. If this isnt the case, why would BMW updated DME files have anything to do with the file on your ECU currently?

[quattrosaint]

Originally Posted by Shellacked135i

Yes you need usb to serial and drivers to connect to PROcede....

right and to make that cable work don't you need to load the driver via cd-rom? If so I cant because I have a netbook and they do not have cd-roms. I could buy one, or just wait until those beta maps are proceede when shipped.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by quattrosaint

right and to make that cable work don't you need to load the driver via cd-rom? If so I cant because I have a netbook and they do not have cd-roms. I could buy one, or just wait until those beta maps are proceede when shipped.

no, you can download the drivers off the manufacturer website.

[Shellacked135i]

Originally Posted by quattrosaint

right and to make that cable work don't you need to load the driver via cd-rom? If so I cant because I have a netbook and they do not have cd-roms. I could buy one, or just wait until those beta maps are proceede when shipped.

Originally Posted by themyst

no, you can download the drivers off the manufacturer website.

[quattrosaint]

Originally Posted by themyst

no, you can download the drivers off the manufacturer website.

Ah thanks. Looks like I will be joining the tuned community next week.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Shellacked135i

You must be delusional or in denial.

Firstly, the only popular flash tune is GIAC and they are limited to ~16 PSI.
The only other flash tune that has to come to the market as of THREE WEEKS ago is COBB and they are pegged at 13 PSI, so as of January 26 2011 its quite Obvious which tunes are better as of today in terms of max potential power as there are some 500WHP+ cars rolling around on your negatively concieved piggybacks.

What the future brings is a different story, this car is not your typical subaru ECU, its quite the b*tch to work with.

Ask Cobb, they will tell you what took them so long to get into the market, and it was the ECU.

Ask Giac why the are pegged at 16.5 PSI and there is no one running higher boost, cause everytime they try to push beyond that they run into problems.

Do some research, you need to take whatever you know about subaru and throw it out the window, this car is a different animal. Stop even bringing those manufactures into this forum, they have no place, there is no comparison.

Id obviously prefer to hear it from GIAC or Cobb stating that they cant take the car over those levels, but i will take your word for it. Key phrase being "cant do it right now". I belive they will, just like they always have.

I also never said that procede was a bad tune, or that it didnt make power or have advantages. In fact, in my first post, i stated that i personally enjoyed the driving experience when i had my procede in my car.