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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > AUDIO/VIDEO + BLUETOOTH + Electronics/Alarm/Software > 2011 E90 gets Musicar Level Three plus DSP



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      04-29-2013, 10:25 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
About the cost of an MS-8 plus a 6-channel amp.

There are cheaper versions with less amplified channel outputs
LOL, about what I was guessing Very pretty, though.
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      04-29-2013, 11:04 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
MS-8: Bluetooth echo problems, big and near impossible to fit into a stealth install, breaks the fader, unreliable in the field. Auto-tune seems to be questionable in the midbass for many E90 owners on this forum.

Bit one: can work really well, not cheap. In situations where you NEED the DRC, it's a very nice controller. IMO there is no need for a DRC in E90 installs, even with the Toslink input and the DA2, since volume is supported in SPDIF. Will auto-correct an electrical signal, but this capability is useless in HiFi cars, and useless in Top HiFi cars if DA2 is being used. Nice PC SW.

Helix: smaller, fits into tight spots, no DRC-type controller, parametric EQ for better tunability, not as much money. Allows weighted summing so more bass is derived from front channels. Has variable phase to sub channel. Nice SW, I like it a lot. Easier to get voltage preamp drive out from Toslink out than B1.

Bit one is a pretty old design now and there are many things EM Italy wants to do to the next generation.
Thanks for a quick comparison.
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      04-29-2013, 11:06 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post

For those who have missed my position on rear speakers and center channels:

Commie Plot!!!
I'm exactly of same opinion.
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      04-29-2013, 11:18 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
I know you're not a fan of L7, but I love what it does with the rears to PUSH the midbass forward. (Yes, I can tell the difference)
Well in real world it blinds the rear channels of mid bass but does not PUSH mid bass to front at all. And the listener get the perception which you explained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
The name of the MS-8 comes from the 8ms delay that its DSP take to process the audio before T/A.

That's where the echo is coming from.
I may be wrong but MS-8 is based on its ability to deal with 8 channels and not to do with 8ms delay. Same as MS-2 (2 channel based DSP).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post

You should try the Helix Match PP82DSP with your Stereo system... DSP + 8ch amp (100+W max per channel).

Is it not 55W X 8 ?
Here is what it says on the website
MATCH 8 CH PP82 DSP amplifier
Class HD - 8-channel amplifier plug and play,
8 x 55 Watts @ 4 Ohm / 8 x 70 Watts @ 2 ohms.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post

If you want to read about doing the tuning yourself, start at DIYMA.com but be warned, it is not something you can learn to do overnight.
+10
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      04-29-2013, 11:42 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post
Is it not 55W X 8 ?
Here is what it says on the website
MATCH 8 CH PP82 DSP amplifier
Class HD - 8-channel amplifier plug and play,
8 x 55 Watts @ 4 Ohm / 8 x 70 Watts @ 2 ohms.
They're the RMS figures, Technic was referring to the MAX figure.

Maybe I'll still give the MS-8 a whirl (I bought it a while ago but haven't got around to fitting it yet) - the manual tuning sounds like a minefield.
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      04-29-2013, 12:22 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post
I may be wrong but MS-8 is based on its ability to deal with 8 channels and not to do with 8ms delay. Same as MS-2 (2 channel based DSP).
We are talking about the Bluetooth echo, and not of dealing with 8 channels. Most current DSP in the market have 8-channels outputs, but only the MS-8 has the echo. And to eliminate the echo JBL issued a software update that in essence disable the processing to fix this issue.

The processing is where the 8ms delay is.
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      04-29-2013, 03:10 PM   #29
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How would the group compare the Helix DSP and the Alpine PXA-H800 for suitability in a HiFi car application? I am currently leaning toward the Alpine.
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      04-29-2013, 04:10 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgatti View Post
How would the group compare the Helix DSP and the Alpine PXA-H800 for suitability in a HiFi car application? I am currently leaning toward the Alpine.
The H800 does autuning -selectable Imprint, not as the all-or-nothing MS-8- while the Helix does not.

The H800 requires an external RUX controller while the Helix does not.

The H800 can handle direct HiFi balanced inputs via RCA while the "old" Helix DSP accepts balanced inputs via the same wired inputs as the high level port. VP Electricity can elaborate more in this regard.

I have the H800 and it sounds great to me. It is more complicated and time consuming to set it up than the MS-8, however it does not have any of the restrictions after autotuning as the MS-8. Meaning, once it autotune you can change all the crossovers, slopes, attenuation, input/output levels, T/A. There are several DSP modes (Euphony, Dolby Pro Logic, MP3 compensation) available. There is no midbass hole and no echo.

I have no experience with the Helix DSP, but its interface seems similar to the Zapco DSP. So it should be easily understood and powerful at the same time.
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      04-29-2013, 04:37 PM   #31
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I prefer the Alpine. It does some more things (some of which I don't care about), and it probably sounds a hint better in a reference system. It has more presets, and it has RoadEQ as an option, and the controller is very nicely made.

Costs more, too. That's why we use the Helix more.
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      04-29-2013, 05:05 PM   #32
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Thanks guys for affirming my decision. One thing about the alpine I don't understand, what does the 'gain' setting on the crossovers mean? Why would you need another setting other than frequency and slope for crossovers?
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      04-29-2013, 05:45 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgatti View Post
Thanks guys for affirming my decision. One thing about the alpine I don't understand, what does the 'gain' setting on the crossovers mean? Why would you need another setting other than frequency and slope for crossovers?
Notice that the gain setting only attenuates. It could be useful if you are running active tweeters.

The thing is, all those adjustments are just there. You do not have to use them all, pick and choose.
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      04-29-2013, 07:01 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00
Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
I know you're not a fan of L7, but I love what it does with the rears to PUSH the midbass forward. (Yes, I can tell the difference)
Well in real world it blinds the rear channels of mid bass but does not PUSH mid bass to front at all. And the listener get the perception which you explained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
The name of the MS-8 comes from the 8ms delay that its DSP take to process the audio before T/A.

That's where the echo is coming from.
I may be wrong but MS-8 is based on its ability to deal with 8 channels and not to do with 8ms delay. Same as MS-2 (2 channel based DSP).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post

You should try the Helix Match PP82DSP with your Stereo system... DSP + 8ch amp (100+W max per channel).

Is it not 55W X 8 ?
Here is what it says on the website
MATCH 8 CH PP82 DSP amplifier
Class HD - 8-channel amplifier plug and play,
8 x 55 Watts @ 4 Ohm / 8 x 70 Watts @ 2 ohms.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post

If you want to read about doing the tuning yourself, start at DIYMA.com but be warned, it is not something you can learn to do overnight.
+10
It does push the midbass forward the way it does so is by playing the midbass information out of phase from the rear speakers.
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      04-29-2013, 07:21 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgatti View Post
Thanks guys for affirming my decision. One thing about the alpine I don't understand, what does the 'gain' setting on the crossovers mean? Why would you need another setting other than frequency and slope for crossovers?
Alpine hides the output level control in the crossover panel. Helix puts it on the EQ panel. All DSPs have the output level per channel in there, and if you're doing a fully-active system, it allows you to get the same output level at the driver's head from each driver, left and right. We even tweak the output level of the L and R underseats for the driver's optimal sound

Oh, the requirement of the RUX-C800 controller is something that Technic and I have both complained about in the past. When you compare these prices, remember you MUST have that also plugged in!
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      04-30-2013, 05:40 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeful View Post
They're the RMS figures, Technic was referring to the MAX figure.

Maybe I'll still give the MS-8 a whirl (I bought it a while ago but haven't got around to fitting it yet) - the manual tuning sounds like a minefield.
I can assure you that you will be better off while using MS-8.
I have installed it and used it. Too much processing for my taste but client loves it

They loved the sound from central speaker and ambience from rear speakers.
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      04-30-2013, 05:43 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
We are talking about the Bluetooth echo, and not of dealing with 8 channels. Most current DSP in the market have 8-channels outputs, but only the MS-8 has the echo. And to eliminate the echo JBL issued a software update that in essence disable the processing to fix this issue.

The processing is where the 8ms delay is.
Technic
what is your take on the delay? If other processors can tackle with it (assuming that they do not delay anything with vocals without music), then why can't MS-8?

Is it not as simple as for the processor to recognize that when vocals are there without a music, then cancel the delay to avoid any echo issues? (it may effect some tracks starting with vocals only).
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      04-30-2013, 08:59 AM   #38
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Yes, we looked into it. Awfully pricey.

We offer pretuned DSP for certain of our packages where we've done the install before and we have the files. Eliminates the auto tune benefit, when its already done for you
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      04-30-2013, 09:02 AM   #39
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I suspect that the mS-8, which took years and years to finish for Harman, used inch slow HW, along with poorly written code, that this caused the delay. It may have just been the code.

We have installed a lot of DSPs here an the MS8 has been the only one we've ever seen which exceeds the ability of the echo canceling feature to compensate.
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      04-30-2013, 01:29 PM   #40
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I'm a little late to the party but nice install Ken! That Helix SW looks and from your description sounds close to the Arc PS8 I'm using now. I wonder how it compares. I'm still messing around with mine trying to get it to sound exactly right.
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      05-01-2013, 06:23 AM   #41
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The latest version of the Helix DSP PC-Tool includes a nice PDF on tuning, suggesting the use of the freeware Praxis measurement application and a USB microphone.

They also say that ATF Real-Time Analyzer Software is now implemented in the DSP PC-Tool v2.80
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      05-01-2013, 07:48 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post
Technic
what is your take on the delay? If other processors can tackle with it (assuming that they do not delay anything with vocals without music), then why can't MS-8?

Is it not as simple as for the processor to recognize that when vocals are there without a music, then cancel the delay to avoid any echo issues? (it may effect some tracks starting with vocals only).
I somewhat agree with what VP said.

We know that the delay is not the Logic7 processing just because that's not what JBL is disabling with their update "fix". It could be the DSP chip/code itself.

However, they named the sucker MS-8 because of that 8ms delay. So it seems to me that it is by design. Most probably they needed all those 8ms to do the real-time correction set by the acoustic calibration that they wanted.

Otherwise they would be celebrating a slow-ass DSP...
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      05-01-2013, 11:19 AM   #43
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The PS8 is a very nice piece of gear. I got to see it in development in Robert Zeff's lab... I think the hardware is great. We brought in a couple early on and there have been a number of firmware revisions to it, and I think they are still working on the digital input side a bit.

We may carry it again in the future. For most installations, the Helix does everything we need. I think the PS8 is better, but the flagship piece for us is the Alpine H800. They already have a stable digital input side and they have a controller available too. The controller isn't needed in BMW with the Mobridge DA piece, but there have been a few issues with the PS2 and the DA pieces as far as jitter tolerance goes. I'm sure they will be sorted out.
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      05-01-2013, 11:21 AM   #44
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I don't believe the "8" corresponds to the delay. I think the "8" corresponds to the number of output channels. The product was named years and years before the design was near finalized, so the duration of the delay could not have been predicted.
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