[LLW273]

After a good few months of searching I finally found the E92 335i LCI I’d been looking for namely DCT, Satnav, black leather and a sunroof. It came with the added bonus of piano black trim so I’m one happy fellow.
The only fly in the ointment well so I thought is the base stereo, I say this because it’s certainly an improvement on the HK audio I had in my E46, granted it’s not going to win any shows but after adjusting the sound from the poor default settings it’s punchy and only lets it self-down when really busy songs are played.
After reading numerous threads on this informative site I believe I settled on the following -:
Rainbow IL-C8.3 BMW E-Series for the front and Rainbow IL–X4 BMW E-Series for the rear.
Now for the questions
1. Is the base HU capable of driving the above components? I’m after sound quality not SPL. May seem an obvious answer but in view of the prospective cost outlay I’d be interested to know if anyone has tried.
2. If not, I’m looking at the Helix MATCH PP82DSP, does anyone have any experience of this amp they can share, also if I do go for this amp would the Helix Match BMW component speakers be a better choice ?
3. Are Bluetooth echo and issues with bongs and chimes being too loud now a thing of the past?
4. Due to the number of channels the PP82DSP has am I right in thinking this would be an active setup? Is this the correct way to go or should I be looking at something simpler?
5. A stealth install and no cutting are mandatory, so is this a Technic harness or the Helix Match item?
6. No dealers in the London/Essex area stock both amp and speakers so any comments on the above and recommendations for fitting would be greatly appreciated.
Apologies for the lengthy post…just wanted to get it all out there

[Wongway]

1) simply put, no

2) I have and use the Match PP82DSP and love it. Easily hidden and plenty of power for a simpler sq setup.

3) Bluetooth Echo was part of the old dsps such as the old JBL MS-8, no issues with that with the Helix.

4) Yes, you can make this active and from an avg_joe_user standpoint, I'd highly recommend it for tuning the sound properly.

5) Stealth install can be easily done, you may want/need a technic harness to tap in to the full range signal underneath the front seats. This way, you can feed the amp/dsp the full range signal from the head unit and run that back to the trunk from there. Obviously, that means head unit removal is not necessary

6) From my personal experience and standpoint, I'd suggest getting the fronts, but not bother spending money upgrading the rears just yet. Use the rainbows you suggested for the front tweeters, mid, mid-woofer below the seat. See if you're happy from there. Having upgraded my fronts, I honestly have no use/need to upgrade the rears. You'll never miss them.

[ctuna]

But Morels use to be the most highly regarded
door speakers.

Jehnert , Gladen , the diamond audios you mentioned
are getting good reviews here as three way sets.

[LLW273]

Hi Wongway

Thanks for the endorsement of the PP82DSP, looks like that'll be the way I'm going. A local dealer has suggested the Audison 8.9 but it's more expensive and has less power.
Having rear fill is important to me so I will be changing the rears for co-axials and use 2 of the channels from the PP82DSP.
I also have Front & Rear PDC so I'll need to take the rear feed from the HU, can I use the rear speaker connection into the amp, run back to that location and still not remove the HU ?

Hi Ctuna

The Morel 2 ways's seem a little expensive and I'd also have to factor in under seats as well, I understand you get what you pay for but are they that much of an improvement over say the Rainbows ?
Diamonds are a new name for me to look up. Jehnerts appear not to produce a co-axial for the rear and I'd like to use the same brand front and rear.

[Wongway]

Originally Posted by LLW273

...
I also have Front & Rear PDC so I'll need to take the rear feed from the HU, can I use the rear speaker connection into the amp, run back to that location and still not remove the HU ?
...
Jehnerts appear not to produce a co-axial for the rear and I'd like to use the same brand front and rear.

1)Why get the rear feed from the head unit when the speakers are right there in the rear deck just above the trunk where you'd install the amp?

2)That's because Jehnert is smart, they know rear speakers are useless!
Seriously though, if you insist on rear speakers, it doesn't matter that the brands don't match. It's not like you get in your car every day to see if all your speaker brands match.

On a more sarcastic note, you guys must have some strange concerts over there across the seas. Here, when we listen to music, the stage is usually set in front of us. We don't have stages behind us when we go to listen to music. (That's really a hint... hopefully one you truly think about)

Honestly though, I can see maybe a reasoning for rear speakers if you're worried about rear PDC. But spending quality money on them is a waste. Hence, worrying about them matching is kind of silly. Just find a relatively inexpensive coax for the rear deck and call it a day. Anything more is truly throwing money away for window dressing.

[LLW273]

Hi Wongway

1. On reading one of the many threads it was suggested that the PDC bongs are different for front and rear hence me wishing to maintain this feed. The poster didn’t realise this until it was too late. I don’t know if this is true or not but I’d rather learn from their experience.
2. Jehnert may well be onto to something, or may it’s because they’re one of the smaller companies that can’t justify the tooling for a co-axial. There are a number of companies that do make them so there must be a balance somewhere.
3. Yep we’re pretty strange in the UK but I have to say your concert hall analogy is a little outdated. Most of the old concert halls do have the speakers at one end but this is more through necessity as this is where the stage is. I recently attended the Royal Albert Hall which has gone through a complete refitting of their audio system. As well as the speakers at the front of the stage they also have speakers in a cluster array that hang from the middle of the ceiling and sides which send sound to the rear of the hall….If it’s good enough for a multi million £ installation I figure I can spend a small percentage of my budget on this.
4. This is no window dressing, if I can hear the rears then it makes sense to me that all the drive units should be from the same acoustic family. I’ve also been PM’d by someone who’s done exactly what I’m thinking about with excellent results. He used an Arc amp so he’s keen know what DSP brings to the party.
Thanks again for your input, it’s really made me re-examine what I’m trying to achieve.

[ctuna]

coaxials suck.
I don't think they don't make them because they
are not a good audiophile solution.
In Concert Hall you can't idealize the spot you here the sound from
since it has to be averaged for everybody obviously there are sweet
spots. Home theater systems have had simulations of various concert halls
for quite awhile now.

[Wongway]

I dunno, I've sung full voice in operas on a concert stage before without mics and speakers to carry the show. I've also listened to shows of this nature as well in the audience. Distance might make it a bit more difficult to localize where the sound is coming from but, I've been able to discern where the sound is supposed to come from pretty easily.

@LLW273
1) I'm not sure you fully grasped what I was trying to get you to picture:
The headunit will send the sound down the wire to the rear speakers. So if you tap that wire before it gets to the rear speakers, there's less wire to have to run (back up to the front of the car) and less wire to run back to that rear speaker from the amplifer (from the trunk of the car). Of course, if you'd rather go through the labor to tear out the head unit and wire everything from back there, or pay someone else to do that extra labor, feel free.

2) ctuna's got a point in regards to coaxials, but if you insist on traveling down this road, don't bother spending a lot of money for great ones. It truly isn't worth the extra $$ to do. Get something acceptable, maybe even Vibe Slicks (I've heard they're relatively cheap there to get?) But for sound quality, it's not worth it to go much beyond.

3) Well, it is your money to spend, however you did come here asking for advice. If you don't like the advice, might as well go full on YOLO then?

4) It is window dressing and I'll try to explain why:
Most everyone (and yes, I was very guilty of this as well) mistakes having more speakers or speakers in the back as better quality sound or sound reproduction. The only time you could ever want this many speakers is if you are listening to dolby 5.1 audio or better. The problem here is that almost all audio you listen to is still recorded in stereo.

Feel free to read up on Stereo yourself, but to sum up, the music is designed to reproduced with full spectrum speakers to the left and right of the listener with the listener equidistant between them. That's it. Period. Adding speakers to the rear or sides muddies up the intended focus.

What makes the Match PP82DSP such an appealing device for a sound quality installation is not because it's small and compact for an amp. It's for the DSP that's built into it. What happens, obviously, is that the driver is not equidistant left and right from the speakers. The driver (here in the US) is closer to the left speakers and the right speakers are farther away. (I assume where you live it's reversed?) So part of the beauty of the Helix DSP built into it, is that it can delay the left speakers (assuming US driver) so that the right and left sounds arrive at the ears at the same time.

What you get when this is properly done, is that you actually begin to see where sounds are localized. Your mind will actually believe that Paul McCartney is singing to you, centered on your dashboard instead of to your left/right/behind you all at once.

The obvious result of adding speakers to the rears and whatnot basically mean you're pulling the focus. Where a track meant to have the drum solo sound as if it was running the toms from the left to the right and back to the left again becomes muddied and unfocused because the rears are playing as well and changing where the perception is supposed to be.

[taibanl]

Personally, I like your selection. However I would def add the Match amp+DSP it would work well in your application (not sure if it cleans the signal, so you may need to recode).

[Wongway]

Originally Posted by taibanl

Personally, I like your selection. However I would def add the Match amp+DSP it would work well in your application (not sure if it cleans the signal, so you may need to recode).

It cleans up the signal too, that's another bonus.

If one isn't going to bother doing it right and just hogwild amping up all the speakers, no real reason to get the Match PP82DSP, and just get a cleansweep + JL600.6 or something.

[LLW273]

1. Fully understood your advice in intercepting the feeds at the under seat speakers and the rear speakers, having re-read my post I believe this is clear.
2. Vybe Slicks are £36 in the UK, as they are a 4 point mount I would require adapters…decent ones look like they’ll be £10 at least. Rainbow Co-axils are £74, in view of their better quality, mechanical integrity and BMW specific mounts I really don’t see where the down side is to this.
3. Yes I did ask for advice and I appreciate what I’ve received this far, but in essence advice is just that...advice. As with any advice received it's up to the individual how they chose to apply it. In view of the different avenues twists and turns this could have taken…the fact that it's just the co-axils that are up for debate is one I can accept !

4. I understand the principles of stereo sound, I have an Esoteric/Chord/Neat stereo at home so I have an appreciation of good audio and what can be achieved. Having heard the DSP system in my brother in-laws Jaguar XF I knew this was the route I wanted to explore hence choosing the PP82 to be the centre of my upgrade.
I’ve not installed DSP in a car, if as you suggest this will minimise the deficiencies in the speakers and maximise staging and SQ then this is excellent news. If not, I’ve made the best possible use of my limited funds and time I can spend on this upgrade to get the improvement in SQ that I’m after...ultimately this is my choice.

[ajaye]

Originally Posted by ctuna

coaxials suck.
I don't think they don't make them because they
are not a good audiophile solution.
In Concert Hall you can't idealize the spot you here the sound from
since it has to be averaged for everybody obviously there are sweet
spots. Home theater systems have had simulations of various concert halls
for quite awhile now.

Many loudspeaker designers and sound engineers would disagree; a well designed coaxial monitor was the common control room weapon of choice for decades.

And as for the multiple arrays at royal albert hall mentioned, modern live sound reinforcement will use line-source arrangements to come as close to constant directivity sound as possible as, kind of what ctuna is getting at above. I guarantee the arrays in the middle are still throwing sound to audience members facing them, not back towards the stage. That would be completely counter productive for a bunch of reasons.

Recorded music has the sound stage engineered into the recording, and unless you see "5.1 mix" or "multichannel mix" or the like on the cover, it was mixed on two speakers by a dude sitting in between them. Hearing the recording the way it was engineered to be heard is the goal of a high quality reproduction installation, there is no information meant to be presented from behind you in a stereo mix.

[taibanl]

Originally Posted by ajaye

Many loudspeaker designers and sound engineers would disagree; a well designed coaxial monitor was the common control room weapon of choice for decades.

And as for the multiple arrays at royal albert hall mentioned, modern live sound reinforcement will use line-source arrangements to come as close to constant directivity sound as possible as, kind of what ctuna is getting at above. I guarantee the arrays in the middle are still throwing sound to audience members facing them, not back towards the stage. That would be completely counter productive for a bunch of reasons.

Recorded music has the sound stage engineered into the recording, and unless you see "5.1 mix" or "multichannel mix" or the like on the cover, it was mixed on two speakers by a dude sitting in between them. Hearing the recording the way it was engineered to be heard is the goal of a high quality reproduction installation, there is no information meant to be presented from behind you in a stereo mix.

Except that mixes are engineered for rooms and not cars.

[Wongway]

Originally Posted by ajaye

Recorded music has the sound stage engineered into the recording, and unless you see "5.1 mix" or "multichannel mix" or the like on the cover, it was mixed on two speakers by a dude sitting in between them. Hearing the recording the way it was engineered to be heard is the goal of a high quality reproduction installation, there is no information meant to be presented from behind you in a stereo mix.

Originally Posted by taibanl

Except that mixes are engineered for rooms and not cars.

Hence why I came to see the reasoning for most sound quality installers to not recommend upgrading rear speakers. The addition of DSP to change when/how sounds from individual speakers arrive at your ears help alleviate the problem of being in a car is the key here. Coaxials make it that much harder to tune which frequencies arrive at your ears.

I can however see the poster's desire to keep the rear PDC, so there's that. I just wouldn't spend a lot of money worrying about them.

The thought did make me realize. Since he is working with PDC, I would imagine he might be better off finding someone to recode the head unit back to HiFi? Otherwise, PDC might sound overly loud?

[Bbbeemer]

Originally Posted by LLW273

Hi Wongway

Thanks for the endorsement of the PP82DSP, looks like that'll be the way I'm going. A local dealer has suggested the Audison 8.9 but it's more expensive and has less power.
Having rear fill is important to me so I will be changing the rears for co-axials and use 2 of the channels from the PP82DSP.
I also have Front & Rear PDC so I'll need to take the rear feed from the HU, can I use the rear speaker connection into the amp, run back to that location and still not remove the HU ?

Hi Ctuna

The Morel 2 ways's seem a little expensive and I'd also have to factor in under seats as well, I understand you get what you pay for but are they that much of an improvement over say the Rainbows ?
Diamonds are a new name for me to look up. Jehnerts appear not to produce a co-axial for the rear and I'd like to use the same brand front and rear.

Morels are expensive, but we are trying to get a group buy going in the UK classifieds section and the more we get signed up, the cheaper they become if they are interest to you.

[ajaye]

Originally Posted by taibanl

Except that mixes are engineered for rooms and not cars.

Most people mix for translation across the broadest type of playback they can achieve without overly compromising what the artist wants it to sound like. I know of several people that test listen to a final mix in the car, in some crappy headphones, then in mono and tweak from there. It is essentially damage control, knowing that most people won't be listening in an ideal setting. That said, why not come as close to ideal as possible if you're starting from scratch anyway instead of reinventing the wheel?

[taibanl]

Originally Posted by ajaye

Most people mix for translation across the broadest type of playback they can achieve without overly compromising what the artist wants it to sound like. I know of several people that test listen to a final mix in the car, in some crappy headphones, then in mono and tweak from there. It is essentially damage control, knowing that most people won't be listening in an ideal setting. That said, why not come as close to ideal as possible if you're starting from scratch anyway instead of reinventing the wheel?

Doubtful that many, if any, engineers mix for car audio. I am a former musician and while our mix engineer optimized the mix for studio and various size smaller setups (by plugging into boombox line-in, etc), there is no way to bring a 48 channel mixing board into the back seat of a car; at least not that I;ve seen.

Rear speakers in a DSP environment can contribute to the concept of room ambiance (reverberations) off the rear of the room. You don't want actual reverberations in a car; you get tons of phase interference all over the frequency range, and it sounds like hell. Thus, even without DSP better to have more speakers driving at lower levels IMO - most car audio guys would not agree with this last claim however, (sans DSP).

[ajaye]

Originally Posted by taibanl

Doubtful that many, if any, engineers mix for car audio. I am a former musician and while our mix engineer optimized the mix for studio and various size smaller setups (by plugging into boombox line-in, etc), there is no way to bring a 48 channel mixing board into the back seat of a car; at least not that I;ve seen.

Rear speakers in a DSP environment can contribute to the concept of room ambiance (reverberations) off the rear of the room. You don't want actual reverberations in a car; you get tons of phase interference all over the frequency range, and it sounds like hell. Thus, even without DSP better to have more speakers driving at lower levels IMO - most car audio guys would not agree with this last claim however, (sans DSP).

I'm not talking about Bob Clearmountain types here, I'm talking about listening in the car after its been bounced for issues that you don't hear in a proper listening space. And its admittedly 90% sampled based and VST produced stuff the guys I know are making/mixing so proper soundstaging isn't exactly the endgame, more like "NEEDZ MOAR LOUD."