[Reckless335]

I see all this controversy as to which angel eye LED kit is the best. There are even angel eye comparison threads. But something I've noticed is that when a vendor lists a new angel eye kit, they tend to list it in terms of wattage. (20 watt, 40 watt, 80 watt) etc. That doesn't really mean much when talking about lighting, especially LEDs. An LED's wattage is provided based on the light output of the halogen counterpart. Basically a 40 watt LED doesn't draw 40 watts of current. But it supposedly outputs the same amount of light as a 40 watt halogen light. Look at any household LED light bulbs and you'll see something like 65 watt equivalent but it only draws 13 watts, or something to that nature. So, this isn't really a good marketing strategy. The way to measure a light's brightness is in terms of lumens. A lumen is a measurement of light intensity. More lumens equals brighter lights. So, all these companies advertising their angel eye LED kits, why don't they list the light output in lumens of their kit? Then we as consumers would have a far better idea of what we're actually buying. I'm really curious to see how some of these kits would stack up. The 20watt and 40watt kits from BMWLED, the 80watt kit from TopGearSolutions, even the LUX V3 and V4, and the MTEC kits. We as consumers see a 20watt kit and then a 40 watt kit and assume the 40watt kit is twice as bright as the 20watt kit because that's how it's marketed, when clearly that's not the case. What if the 20 watt kit outputs 100 lumens and the 40 watt kit outputs 120 lumens? Then you have a better idea if you really want to pony up that extra cash for a mere 20 more lumens... \

Any sponsors willing to disclose lumen output of their Angel Eye LED kits? Or hell, even those who sell interior LED kits, any lumen output numbers on those? License plate LEDs? As a consumer I'm just trying to get a better idea of the brightness of the lights, because honestly the amount of halogen equivalent light that the LEDs supposedly put out, doesn't really mean much to me. It would be nice to see how many lumens some of these kits are rated for.

[alexwhittemore]

Originally Posted by latino1ny

We as consumers see a 20watt kit and then a 40 watt kit and assume the 40watt kit is twice as bright as the 20watt kit because that's how it's marketed, when clearly that's not the case. What if the 20 watt kit outputs 100 lumens and the 40 watt kit outputs 120 lumens?

You raise good points, but it's actually not true that 40w is twice as bright as 20w, even in a perfect world where the luminous flux also scales proportionally: light intensity perception is nonlinear, so 40w will only look a little bit brighter than 20.

It's also the case that lumens are a total measure of light energy output, not intensity. So for example, a 400 lumen spotlight is going to be much, much brighter than an 800 lumen isotropic (radiates in all directions) bulb. In this regard, LEDs are always QUITE different from traditional incandescent, halogen, or xenon bulbs. LED bulbs like H8s try to emulate the omnidirectional radiation of the traditional technologies, but that's actually only a relatively poor approximation, so the pattern is still different. Anyway, this is besides the point.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

I see some valid points from both of you guys and they were taken into consideration way before this thread was created.
We personally list ours 20W, 40W and 80W because that is how our manufacturer portrays it to us.
If we were to change the way we marketed this late in the game people would be very confused so for us it's best to just leave it the way it is. By no accident most people prefer simple marketing and this 20-40-80 is fairly simple to understand. By no accident the 80 will be brighter then the 40 and 20. Just like some cars have 400HP and smaller cars have 200HP it doesn't mean the 200HP is necessarily slower if the 400HP weighs significantly more OR better said if one car has 200 HP and the other car has 400HP it doesn't necessarily mean its 2x faster, right?

As Alexwhitemore brings up listing the lumens output still does not tell the entire story and he's right.

The biggest problem with marketing is the underlying assumptions consumers make.
1 big misconceptions is that the 40W option will be 2x brighter then the 20W. Although on paper the wattage pulled by the actual LED may be 2X more you have to account for efficiency of the LED's.
The reality is as you get into too much detail with LED's people get more and more confused.

That is why we chose to keep it simple.
The 80W are brighter then the 40W and the 40W are brighter then the 20W.
We don't even sell the 20W anymore as the 40W is so much better in the daytime.
The 80W are fresh to the market and they are brighter then 40W. I had a member test them yesterday and his exact words when he compared them to the 40W he already has is "First off, these are ridiculously bright!".

The reality is the 80W in their current state need some modifications to fit so we are not going to be pushing them that hard until we have a manufacturing change.
If anyone wants them they can be made to work and will out perform the 40W versions.
However, for the price point and the output the 40W are the ones to go with right now if you want an easy plug and play angel eye kit.

As I've mentioned and never hid to the public all plug and play angel eye kits can only be as good as the headlight design itself. In this case for the H8 angel eyes the housing design is flawed. You have one H8 bulb in an offset housing with uneven and lengthy fiber optic tubes. By no accident it's nearly impossible to get even distribution from 1 light in an off centered housing with uneven tubes, period.

If you want the best of the best you MUST go custom. However, that is a very expensive option which is why most people find the 40W currently the best bang for the buck.

[Chris_506]

i went with the TGS 40w version, installed them yesterday and iam pretty pleased. They are slightly brighter then my previous dtec bulbs and cost about the same, im not going to lie i have never been a fan of lux because IMO they are over priced. HOWEVER, ithe color adjust-ability on the v4s was leaning me towards that being my next set until i started seeing threads pop up regarding them causing issues or not working properly on 07 models and showing a blue spot on the rings depending on the density of the color. Didnt feel like paying $200+ for a little box of issues

[alexwhittemore]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

In this case for the H8 angel eyes the housing design is flawed. You have one H8 bulb in an offset housing with uneven and lengthy fiber optic tubes. By no accident it's nearly impossible to get even distribution from 1 light in an off centered housing with uneven tubes, period.

If you want the best of the best you MUST go custom. However, that is a very expensive option which is why most people find the 40W currently the best bang for the buck.

I always wondered about the H8 format - it seems obviously designed for a round radiation pattern, and thus poorly suited to an LED replacement. What goes in there stock, a small xenon bulb?

The Halogen version, with a bulb firing forward directly into the light pipe, seems like a much more logical design.

When you say "go custom," what do you mean? Have someone open the housing and install a CFL or LED ring light?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by alexwhittemore

I always wondered about the H8 format - it seems obviously designed for a round radiation pattern, and thus poorly suited to an LED replacement. What goes in there stock, a small xenon bulb?

The Halogen version, with a bulb firing forward directly into the light pipe, seems like a much more logical design.

When you say "go custom," what do you mean? Have someone open the housing and install a CFL or LED ring light?

Yes, correct.

Custom would require opening up the headlights an changing out the LED ring entirely. I believe OSS is a popular route mentioned? It's quite expensive though.

[dwells]

What OP is saying about watts and watt equivalents may apply to LED household bulbs (as it does CCFL), but it's not true for other LEDs. Emitters are rated by the maximum draw, not incandescent equivalent.

The point about lumen output is valid though. It would be nice if these were rated for their actual lumen output when being driven by their power supplies connected to the car's power source rather than these arbitrary wattage ratings that mean nothing.

[alexwhittemore]

Originally Posted by dwells

What OP is saying about watts and watt equivalents may apply to LED household bulbs (as it does CCFL), but it's not true for other LEDs. Emitters are rated by the maximum draw, not incandescent equivalent.

The point about lumen output is valid though. It would be nice if these were rated for their actual lumen output when being driven by their power supplies connected to the car's power source rather than these arbitrary wattage ratings that mean nothing.

Individual LEDs or single-module LED arrays, as purchased from the manufacturer, are rated in all sorts of things - most importantly, luminous flux (lumens), watts of real power draw, radiation angle, and (assuming a white LED) color temperature. Lumens/watt is the canonical measure of how "good" an LED is (how efficient), where luminous output is the measure of brightness and how much light you get from the module (am I making a flashlight with this, a mains-powered spotlight, etc).

As integrated into bulb-replacement consumer units, they're virtually always rated in incandescent equivalent watts, which is of course total BS (I've seen E27 bulbs marketed as '60w replacement' with overall luminous flux anywhere from 400lm to 900lm, a hugely noticeable difference).

Now again, luminous flux is also misleading given radiation pattern - a 900lm spotlight is much brighter than a 900lm E27 bulb replacement. The real point is that the bulbs used for halogen AEs is nearly collimated, thus head-to-head comparison is easy, whereas H8 replacements are radial, and thus how nicely the LED firing pattern plays with the light pipe arrangement comes into play.

[LuxAngelEyes]

So a stock halogen bulb for the angel eyes is a H8, and that draws 35 watts of power. The average lumen output of that is 800 watts, which means it has an efficiency rating of 22.8 lumen/Watt.

If a manufacture claims their products are 80W equivalent then that means they should produce 1828 lumen, either per side or total depending on how they are advertised. This also densest take into account the fact that BMW never runs their lights at full power, so normally they are 80-90% brightness, and when the headlight are on they are normally closer to 50%

The LUX H8 V4 LED Angel Eyes produce 965lumen per side, or 1930 lumen total which would give them an an 85 watt equivalent, and they stay at 100% brightness all the time. They also are adjustable color stay at the same brightness regardless of the color setting

[westchester335i]

IMO Umnitza V4 or nothing.

[bmw325i]

Originally Posted by westchester335i

IMO Umnitza V4 or nothing.

This, as long as they aren't installed by Umnitza.

I didn't want to spend alot of money on replacement bulbs, so I got these for now.
http://www.khoalty.com/bmw-e92-coupe...e-upgrade.html

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by dwells

What OP is saying about watts and watt equivalents may apply to LED household bulbs (as it does CCFL), but it's not true for other LEDs. Emitters are rated by the maximum draw, not incandescent equivalent.

The point about lumen output is valid though. It would be nice if these were rated for their actual lumen output when being driven by their power supplies connected to the car's power source rather than these arbitrary wattage ratings that mean nothing.

All fair points. It's not my call however. We market them the way the manufacturer markets them to us. We sell a pretty good amount of them often and everyone appears to be happy with a 100% positive feedback.

There are not too many options out their so it shouldn't be too hard to decipher what meets your needs.

Our biggest problem even today is people getting confsued on what fits their vehicles and what is compatible for their vehicles. We get a lot of emails where people don't even know what kind of car they drive or if they have halogen or xenon low beams. In the E90 and E92 world that is a big concern. So we try to keep it simple.

Last thing we need to do is confuse them even more by offering tons of information that is arguably over their heads.

Our customer base is largely those individuals look for a great plug and play option at a friendly price point. A majority are happy with a plug and play option that simply gets rid of their dull halogen angel eye and replaces it with a bright white ring that can be seen in the day time. The 40W option accomplished that a while ago.

We understand there are a few tech savvy guys that want to know the ins and outs.

For those individuals we recommend contacting us personally and if we don't know the answer we can direct you towards someone who may.
As I mentioned a few times over we just market them the way the manufacturer markets them to us so I dont know much more then that personally.

It's pretty easy to understand that if you want the brightest option and we only have 3 options that the one listed with the higher watt rating would be the brightest available.

Originally Posted by alexwhittemore

Individual LEDs or single-module LED arrays, as purchased from the manufacturer, are rated in all sorts of things - most importantly, luminous flux (lumens), watts of real power draw, radiation angle, and (assuming a white LED) color temperature. Lumens/watt is the canonical measure of how "good" an LED is (how efficient), where luminous output is the measure of brightness and how much light you get from the module (am I making a flashlight with this, a mains-powered spotlight, etc).

As integrated into bulb-replacement consumer units, they're virtually always rated in incandescent equivalent watts, which is of course total BS (I've seen E27 bulbs marketed as '60w replacement' with overall luminous flux anywhere from 400lm to 900lm, a hugely noticeable difference).

Now again, luminous flux is also misleading given radiation pattern - a 900lm spotlight is much brighter than a 900lm E27 bulb replacement. The real point is that the bulbs used for halogen AEs is nearly collimated, thus head-to-head comparison is easy, whereas H8 replacements are radial, and thus how nicely the LED firing pattern plays with the light pipe arrangement comes into play.

Great stuff. Don't forget the optics of the LED itself play a role too. There are so many factors that come into play to say the least.

[Reckless335]

Originally Posted by alexwhittemore

You raise good points, but it's actually not true that 40w is twice as bright as 20w, even in a perfect world where the luminous flux also scales proportionally: light intensity perception is nonlinear, so 40w will only look a little bit brighter than 20.

It's also the case that lumens are a total measure of light energy output, not intensity. So for example, a 400 lumen spotlight is going to be much, much brighter than an 800 lumen isotropic (radiates in all directions) bulb. In this regard, LEDs are always QUITE different from traditional incandescent, halogen, or xenon bulbs. LED bulbs like H8s try to emulate the omnidirectional radiation of the traditional technologies, but that's actually only a relatively poor approximation, so the pattern is still different. Anyway, this is besides the point.

I think you read my original post wrong as your first paragraph states exactly what I had originally stated. People (not me) assume that 40 watts would be twice as bright as 20 watts, I however know that isn't the case, which is why I was suggesting that vendors post luminous output of their products so that we as consumers can get a better idea of brightness comparison.

Your second comparison describes apples to oranges. Of course linear lumens would differ from isotrpics. One bulb you have all 400 lumens facing one direction, so it would appear brighter (in that direction) than a 400 lumen bulb with 360 degree coverage. That's not the issue with H8 upgrade LEDs since I'm sure most vendors are using the same 360 degree coverage pattern since the incandescent H8 bulbs throw a 360 degree light pattern.

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

I see some valid points from both of you guys and they were taken into consideration way before this thread was created.
We personally list ours 20W, 40W and 80W because that is how our manufacturer portrays it to us.
If we were to change the way we marketed this late in the game people would be very confused so for us it's best to just leave it the way it is. By no accident most people prefer simple marketing and this 20-40-80 is fairly simple to understand. By no accident the 80 will be brighter then the 40 and 20. Just like some cars have 400HP and smaller cars have 200HP it doesn't mean the 200HP is necessarily slower if the 400HP weighs significantly more OR better said if one car has 200 HP and the other car has 400HP it doesn't necessarily mean its 2x faster, right?

As Alexwhitemore brings up listing the lumens output still does not tell the entire story and he's right.

The biggest problem with marketing is the underlying assumptions consumers make.
1 big misconceptions is that the 40W option will be 2x brighter then the 20W. Although on paper the wattage pulled by the actual LED may be 2X more you have to account for efficiency of the LED's.
The reality is as you get into too much detail with LED's people get more and more confused.

That is why we chose to keep it simple.
The 80W are brighter then the 40W and the 40W are brighter then the 20W.
We don't even sell the 20W anymore as the 40W is so much better in the daytime.
The 80W are fresh to the market and they are brighter then 40W. I had a member test them yesterday and his exact words when he compared them to the 40W he already has is "First off, these are ridiculously bright!".

The reality is the 80W in their current state need some modifications to fit so we are not going to be pushing them that hard until we have a manufacturing change.
If anyone wants them they can be made to work and will out perform the 40W versions.
However, for the price point and the output the 40W are the ones to go with right now if you want an easy plug and play angel eye kit.

As I've mentioned and never hid to the public all plug and play angel eye kits can only be as good as the headlight design itself. In this case for the H8 angel eyes the housing design is flawed. You have one H8 bulb in an offset housing with uneven and lengthy fiber optic tubes. By no accident it's nearly impossible to get even distribution from 1 light in an off centered housing with uneven tubes, period.

If you want the best of the best you MUST go custom. However, that is a very expensive option which is why most people find the 40W currently the best bang for the buck.

I'm not suggesting to list the LED bulbs as their luminous output in place of their wattage. I'm simply requesting to have the luminous output available (on the description page for instance) in addition to whatever information you currently provide, this way, the "simple customer" still sees them as "simple" and is happy, and the more complex or intense customer has the information that is important to him/her available as well. As I've stated above, I understand the concept that double the wattage doesn't equal double the light output, and that's actually my point in posting this. Also, I'm not arguing the best being custom. I am looking to compare the LED kits that are intended for the stock angel eye location.

Originally Posted by Chris_506

i went with the TGS 40w version, installed them yesterday and iam pretty pleased. They are slightly brighter then my previous dtec bulbs and cost about the same, im not going to lie i have never been a fan of lux because IMO they are over priced. HOWEVER, ithe color adjust-ability on the v4s was leaning me towards that being my next set until i started seeing threads pop up regarding them causing issues or not working properly on 07 models and showing a blue spot on the rings depending on the density of the color. Didnt feel like paying $200+ for a little box of issues

I agree, LUX is WAY overpriced in my opinion. I honestly don't think it is worth the money they are asking, another reason I posed this question. What benefit do you get from all these different kits and price tags? I plan to eventually go full custom, but until then I want a kit to hold me over so I can get rid of the stock yellow until I go full custom. But if the 20watt kits are throwing 350 lumens, and the 40 watt kits are throwing 500 lumens, and 80 watt kits are throwning 600 lumens, why would I want to pay the extra money of the 80 watt kit for only 100 lumens more over the 40 watt kit? It's another thing to consider when thinking about the best "bang for your buck" and since all of the angel eye kits are designed to do the same thing (light the angel eyes) then you should be able to accurately compare luminous output since the bulb throw pattern should be the same. As far as the LUX price tag, it's almost in custom angel eye territory, especially if you install them yourself, so that's something else to consider as well.

Originally Posted by dwells

What OP is saying about watts and watt equivalents may apply to LED household bulbs (as it does CCFL), but it's not true for other LEDs. Emitters are rated by the maximum draw, not incandescent equivalent.

The point about lumen output is valid though. It would be nice if these were rated for their actual lumen output when being driven by their power supplies connected to the car's power source rather than these arbitrary wattage ratings that mean nothing.

I agree with you. I'm curious to what the lumen output is at "running power" I'm glad you understand what I was asking.

Originally Posted by alexwhittemore

Individual LEDs or single-module LED arrays, as purchased from the manufacturer, are rated in all sorts of things - most importantly, luminous flux (lumens), watts of real power draw, radiation angle, and (assuming a white LED) color temperature. Lumens/watt is the canonical measure of how "good" an LED is (how efficient), where luminous output is the measure of brightness and how much light you get from the module (am I making a flashlight with this, a mains-powered spotlight, etc).

As integrated into bulb-replacement consumer units, they're virtually always rated in incandescent equivalent watts, which is of course total BS (I've seen E27 bulbs marketed as '60w replacement' with overall luminous flux anywhere from 400lm to 900lm, a hugely noticeable difference).

Now again, luminous flux is also misleading given radiation pattern - a 900lm spotlight is much brighter than a 900lm E27 bulb replacement. The real point is that the bulbs used for halogen AEs is nearly collimated, thus head-to-head comparison is easy, whereas H8 replacements are radial, and thus how nicely the LED firing pattern plays with the light pipe arrangement comes into play.

I agree, however, we're not comparing spotlights to 360 degree bulbs here. We're comparing the same thing (Angel eye kits) so luminous output WOULD in fact be relevant, at least enoguh to make a decision on which kit is a better buy. I'm just looking for the vendors to supply something else for the consumer to take into consideration when purchasing a product. It's better than just buying something based on 20 watt, 40 watt, or 80 watt bulbs, isn't it? I do agree though, that the best LED bulb for the job would be one where when install correctly, there would be a diode at the end of the fiber optic tube for the outer angel eye ring to help illuminate it better.

Originally Posted by LuxAngelEyes

So a stock halogen bulb for the angel eyes is a H8, and that draws 35 watts of power. The average lumen output of that is 800 watts, which means it has an efficiency rating of 22.8 lumen/Watt.

If a manufacture claims their products are 80W equivalent then that means they should produce 1828 lumen, either per side or total depending on how they are advertised. This also densest take into account the fact that BMW never runs their lights at full power, so normally they are 80-90% brightness, and when the headlight are on they are normally closer to 50%

The LUX H8 V4 LED Angel Eyes produce 965lumen per side, or 1930 lumen total which would give them an an 85 watt equivalent, and they stay at 100% brightness all the time. They also are adjustable color stay at the same brightness regardless of the color setting

Thank you. You're the only one so far who has provided what my initial post has asked, a luminous output rating. Now, each bulb is rated for 965 lumens? That seems pretty bright and may make the higher price tag worth it to some buyers. Though as I've said above,I cannot see myself paying such a steep price for angel eyes when a full custom kit can be had for not much more. However, information such as the fact they stay 100% bright, would also be the type of information that consumers would be looking for.

Originally Posted by westchester335i

IMO Umnitza V4 or nothing.

Thank you, but the point of my post wasn't to see which kit consumers prefer, it was to see if vendors would provide the lumen output of their products.

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

All fair points. It's not my call however. We market them the way the manufacturer markets them to us. We sell a pretty good amount of them often and everyone appears to be happy with a 100% positive feedback.

There are not too many options out their so it shouldn't be too hard to decipher what meets your needs.

Our biggest problem even today is people getting confsued on what fits their vehicles and what is compatible for their vehicles. We get a lot of emails where people don't even know what kind of car they drive or if they have halogen or xenon low beams. In the E90 and E92 world that is a big concern. So we try to keep it simple.

Last thing we need to do is confuse them even more by offering tons of information that is arguably over their heads.

Our customer base is largely those individuals look for a great plug and play option at a friendly price point. A majority are happy with a plug and play option that simply gets rid of their dull halogen angel eye and replaces it with a bright white ring that can be seen in the day time. The 40W option accomplished that a while ago.

We understand there are a few tech savvy guys that want to know the ins and outs.

For those individuals we recommend contacting us personally and if we don't know the answer we can direct you towards someone who may.
As I mentioned a few times over we just market them the way the manufacturer markets them to us so I dont know much more then that personally.

It's pretty easy to understand that if you want the brightest option and we only have 3 options that the one listed with the higher watt rating would be the brightest available.




Great stuff. Don't forget the optics of the LED itself play a role too. There are so many factors that come into play to say the least.

How some people don't even know what kind of car they drive or if they have halogens or xenons is beyond me. I understand trying to keep it simple for the simple consumers, but I feel in the description somewhere you should list additional information such as I've requested, or other things like LUX has said about being powered 100% brightness at all times. Do they fade on/off when locking/unlocking the car like the stock angel eyes do? These are examples of questions I've seen all over the forums that people are asking about the kits. So you're saying for the "tech savvy guys" that would like additional information on your product to contact you directly? Would you be willing to post the lumen output of your kits here? I'm pretty sure you could safely categorize everyone who has responded to this thread as "tech savvy". I understand the concept that the highest watt rating would be the brightest, however. The point I was making (and for the sake of this argument I'll be using examples, not actual prices or lumen outputs) but just to get the idea across, as a consumer let's say a vendor has 3 brightnesses available, 20, 40, and 80 watt. Now lets say 20 watt gives off 350 lumens and costs $75, 40 watt gives off 500 lumens and costs $120 and 80 watt gives off 550 lumens and costs $300 (ridiculously exaggerated, I know) But as the consumer, yes, the 80 watt is the best in terms of brightness, but why would I want to spend all that additional money for a mere 50 more lumens? Do you see the point that I'm trying to raise? Yes, the 80 watt kit is the brightest, but is it worth the extra price tag is what I'm getting at? You mentioned "simple" consumers, I'm assuming you're counting on these consumers being "simple" enough not to care (or not to know) that you're charging them an extra $150 for a mere 10 additional lumens in one kit over the other? The way you market your products to these "simple" consumers who don't even know what type of vehicle they drive, or if they have halogen lights or xenons, they see 80 watts and ASSUME they are TWICE as bright as the 40 watt alternative. These are the people I've mentioned in my original post. Maybe this is why you market your products based on wattage rather than something more significant to depict brightness of the lights. Again, I''m not arguing that the 80 watt is brighter, I believe you that it is, but how MUCH brighter? Is it worth the extra cash we have to pony up for it?

[alexwhittemore]

Originally Posted by latino1ny

I think you read my original post wrong as your first paragraph states exactly what I had originally stated.

Poor wording, sorry.

That's not the issue with H8 upgrade LEDs since I'm sure most vendors are using the same 360 degree coverage pattern since the incandescent H8 bulbs throw a 360 degree light pattern.

I don't want to claim that it IS, because I don't know what the architecture looks like in terms of how the H8 socket on the premium lights direct light into light pipes, but this is exactly my point: LED replacement modules only APPROXIMATE a 360 degree radiation pattern, often by having one LED array per each of 4 faces.

My point is, using LEDs to approximate incandescents (or, you know, point-source glass bulbs, anyway) is non-ideal for a bunch of reasons, and using a normal bulb to feed light rings is ITSELF non-ideal. By using an LED-based H8 module, you're going through two layers of non-ideal design, when in reality you'd have been much better off designing the angel eyes with LEDs right from the get-go (which BMW presumably didn't do because of cost).

Which is, of course, why Jeff suggests that going custom with some solution like OSS yields the best results. You avoid shoehorning your sub-optimal design into someone else's already sub-optimal design.

[LuxAngelEyes]

latino1ny - Glad we were able to answer your questions. As we mentioned above, the LUX H8 V4 LED Angel Eyes produce 965lumen per side, or 1930 lumen total which would give them an an 85 watt equivalent . Again they are 100 % brightness all the time. Because of this do do not fade off smoothly but we feel its more important to make a lights that is the brightest out there.

The best part about this as well is that they are 100% plug and play versus a custom setup, so they can always be reversed in the future. If you have a custom setup and something fails, you are pretty much screwed.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by latino1ny

I think you read my original post wrong as your first paragraph states exactly what I had originally stated. People (not me) assume that 40 watts would be twice as bright as 20 watts, I however know that isn't the case, which is why I was suggesting that vendors post luminous output of their products so that we as consumers can get a better idea of brightness comparison.

Your second comparison describes apples to oranges. Of course linear lumens would differ from isotrpics. One bulb you have all 400 lumens facing one direction, so it would appear brighter (in that direction) than a 400 lumen bulb with 360 degree coverage. That's not the issue with H8 upgrade LEDs since I'm sure most vendors are using the same 360 degree coverage pattern since the incandescent H8 bulbs throw a 360 degree light pattern.



I'm not suggesting to list the LED bulbs as their luminous output in place of their wattage. I'm simply requesting to have the luminous output available (on the description page for instance) in addition to whatever information you currently provide, this way, the "simple customer" still sees them as "simple" and is happy, and the more complex or intense customer has the information that is important to him/her available as well. As I've stated above, I understand the concept that double the wattage doesn't equal double the light output, and that's actually my point in posting this. Also, I'm not arguing the best being custom. I am looking to compare the LED kits that are intended for the stock angel eye location.



I agree, LUX is WAY overpriced in my opinion. I honestly don't think it is worth the money they are asking, another reason I posed this question. What benefit do you get from all these different kits and price tags? I plan to eventually go full custom, but until then I want a kit to hold me over so I can get rid of the stock yellow until I go full custom. But if the 20watt kits are throwing 350 lumens, and the 40 watt kits are throwing 500 lumens, and 80 watt kits are throwning 600 lumens, why would I want to pay the extra money of the 80 watt kit for only 100 lumens more over the 40 watt kit? It's another thing to consider when thinking about the best "bang for your buck" and since all of the angel eye kits are designed to do the same thing (light the angel eyes) then you should be able to accurately compare luminous output since the bulb throw pattern should be the same. As far as the LUX price tag, it's almost in custom angel eye territory, especially if you install them yourself, so that's something else to consider as well.



I agree with you. I'm curious to what the lumen output is at "running power" I'm glad you understand what I was asking.



I agree, however, we're not comparing spotlights to 360 degree bulbs here. We're comparing the same thing (Angel eye kits) so luminous output WOULD in fact be relevant, at least enoguh to make a decision on which kit is a better buy. I'm just looking for the vendors to supply something else for the consumer to take into consideration when purchasing a product. It's better than just buying something based on 20 watt, 40 watt, or 80 watt bulbs, isn't it? I do agree though, that the best LED bulb for the job would be one where when install correctly, there would be a diode at the end of the fiber optic tube for the outer angel eye ring to help illuminate it better.



Thank you. You're the only one so far who has provided what my initial post has asked, a luminous output rating. Now, each bulb is rated for 965 lumens? That seems pretty bright and may make the higher price tag worth it to some buyers. Though as I've said above,I cannot see myself paying such a steep price for angel eyes when a full custom kit can be had for not much more. However, information such as the fact they stay 100% bright, would also be the type of information that consumers would be looking for.



Thank you, but the point of my post wasn't to see which kit consumers prefer, it was to see if vendors would provide the lumen output of their products.




How some people don't even know what kind of car they drive or if they have halogens or xenons is beyond me. I understand trying to keep it simple for the simple consumers, but I feel in the description somewhere you should list additional information such as I've requested, or other things like LUX has said about being powered 100% brightness at all times. Do they fade on/off when locking/unlocking the car like the stock angel eyes do? These are examples of questions I've seen all over the forums that people are asking about the kits. So you're saying for the "tech savvy guys" that would like additional information on your product to contact you directly? Would you be willing to post the lumen output of your kits here? I'm pretty sure you could safely categorize everyone who has responded to this thread as "tech savvy". I understand the concept that the highest watt rating would be the brightest, however. The point I was making (and for the sake of this argument I'll be using examples, not actual prices or lumen outputs) but just to get the idea across, as a consumer let's say a vendor has 3 brightnesses available, 20, 40, and 80 watt. Now lets say 20 watt gives off 350 lumens and costs $75, 40 watt gives off 500 lumens and costs $120 and 80 watt gives off 550 lumens and costs $300 (ridiculously exaggerated, I know) But as the consumer, yes, the 80 watt is the best in terms of brightness, but why would I want to spend all that additional money for a mere 50 more lumens? Do you see the point that I'm trying to raise? Yes, the 80 watt kit is the brightest, but is it worth the extra price tag is what I'm getting at? You mentioned "simple" consumers, I'm assuming you're counting on these consumers being "simple" enough not to care (or not to know) that you're charging them an extra $150 for a mere 10 additional lumens in one kit over the other? The way you market your products to these "simple" consumers who don't even know what type of vehicle they drive, or if they have halogen lights or xenons, they see 80 watts and ASSUME they are TWICE as bright as the 40 watt alternative. These are the people I've mentioned in my original post. Maybe this is why you market your products based on wattage rather than something more significant to depict brightness of the lights. Again, I''m not arguing that the 80 watt is brighter, I believe you that it is, but how MUCH brighter? Is it worth the extra cash we have to pony up for it?

I was on the phone just the other day with a customer who could not tell me if he had halogen or xenon head lamps. He thought I was talking in another language. He did not even know the angel eyes were called angel eyes. They were described to me as brown rings... We have a lot more customers who don't know much about their vehicles then you think. Most of my emails are helping consumers find what they need when they can barely tell me what they are looking for correctly.

I've had customers buy intercoolers and not know where they are installed. Buying catless downpipes and not realizing the car will smell afterwards because the stock catalyst is removed. You name it, I've seen it or heard it.

It gets much worse. We've had people buy from our website on a Sunday and expect shipment the same day. We need to account for all types of people to say the least.

I constantly get people ordering from our site and checking out with products that don't fit their car. A MAJORITY of problems stem from people not reading.

You have some excellent points. At this time I do not have the data to provide. I'd have to contact the manufacturer. As mentioned several times before we only provide the information the manufacturer does and that's how it's marketed to us. As member alexwhitemore said the lumens still don't tell the whole story of output so it's really moot but if a majority insist on data that may potentially be just as misleading I might be able to source it. Since you feel the 40 VS 80 debacle is misleading then I guess it would be the same thing adding lumens output. The reality is we are not trying to mislead anyone which is why a confidently say a majority will be happy with the current 40W application and we have 100% positive feedback with it.

[Reckless335]

Ok, this topic is beginning to drift away from my original intention for it. Granted, I know lumen output is not the BEST way to compare two different AE kits, however, it's a lot better than just the amount of wattage it draws. I'm not talking about custom kits, no doubt they are better. I'm simply looking for a "best bang for your buck" solution until I decide to go full custom. (I'm honestly afraid of opening my headlights. My E46 just unclipped, I really don't want to BAKE my E92 lights to seperate them.) Anyways, back on topic....

Here's an idea of what I'm trying to get at..... I chose Jeff, since he has been responding, and just chose another random sponsor that offers the same or similar product as Jeff. Ok, So Jeff offers a 40 watt BMW LED angel eye upgrade kit. They are on sale for $86.99 with the regular price of $109.99 BMWLED ALSO offers a 40 watt BMW LED angel eye kit which sells for $89.99 So Jeff, other than the $3 price difference, why should I buy your kit over the other? Of course, after your sale is over, your kit will be $20 more than BMWLED.... so prove to me that your kit is worth $20 more.

I'm assuming your natural answer would be that it's "better". Well what makes it "better"? You're going to say it's "brighter", right? Well how much "brighter" exactly? See what I'm trying to get to? If you and BMWLED both offered lumen output (since both kits are 40 claimed watts) then us consumers would be able to see where that extra $20 you charge is going. Granted, lumens isn't the best way to compare either, I got that, but aside from beating a dead horse, both H8 LED bulbs look the same.... meaning that they should have the same light output pattern, meaning luminous output would suffice for a semi-accurate method of measuring. Both kits have 4 LEDs per bulb, one facing in each direction, so they appear to be the same bulb to me as a consumer. Why are you charging $20 more? Where is that $20 going? Do you see what I'm asking, or what I'm trying to get at?

[awu]

You're talking about $20 in the context of a $55K MSRP car. As long as it's bright enough and doesn't break anything, I don't think you can really go wrong.

I just ordered LUX V4, had my local shop install them for me, and I'm very pleased with the results. Big upgrade over stock yellow rings IMO.

[LuxAngelEyes]

Originally Posted by awu

You're talking about $20 in the context of a $55K MSRP car. As long as it's bright enough and doesn't break anything, I don't think you can really go wrong.

I just ordered LUX V4, had my local shop install them for me, and I'm very pleased with the results. Big upgrade over stock yellow rings IMO.

Glad that you are happy with these. ON a side note we just got a picture from a customer and he did a side by side with the stock lights . Talk about a HUGE difference

[Chris_506]

Just wanted to share, I got the 40w TPS angel eyes from Jeff and this is what they look like (daytime, crappy camera, from inside my wife's car)




And some I took myself










Pretty impressive for the price, I will eventually have proper pics with a proper shoot but that's what I have for now.