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AMS FMIC Installed: +23 whp peak, +43 whp @ 6700!
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09-08-2009, 03:42 PM | #46 |
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thanks man.. i am putting a set of cams and springs in it tonight hopefully we will make 800whp with it soon..
-Sam
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09-08-2009, 03:46 PM | #47 | |
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On a dyno, regardless of the fans you have, you are pretty much testing the "heatsink-ability" of an IC. There's little flow across the ICs with regards to being out on a road running 60+ mph. The big difference like I said earlier is that the stock IC is simply out of thermal capacity by the time it reaches high rpm, while the AMS unit has quite a bit left. Another thing to consider is the thickness of the AMS unit. It's quite thick,and to be efficient needs to have a shroud, which it does. The stock shroud fits tightly back up against the core and directs air through it, rather than allowing air to "scatter" around it. With the large thickness increase, there's a much smaller percentage of that low velocity air output from the fans actually making it through the upgraded core vs. the stock core....even more of a testiment to the much higher thermal load ceiling of the upgraded core. Oh yeah...hey Sam
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09-08-2009, 03:52 PM | #48 |
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Great car Sam! Ivan here has a pretty wild S14.5...pretty quick too
http://amsperformance.com/ivan_240sx.php Eric |
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09-08-2009, 04:17 PM | #49 | |
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AMS knows how to build some sweet cars thats for sure.. ok enough of the nutt swingin back to the IC thread.
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09-08-2009, 05:22 PM | #50 | |
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If you are saying that your intercooler flow and efficiency account for 43 rwhp at redline at 14-16 psi, then that is your choice. At the same time, I will bet money that under identical circumstances and identical boost curves that your intercooler will not produce 43 rwhp over stock period. A418t81, I do want to say that you are a huge value to this forum and appreciate everything you add. I just saw the dyno and was looking for more information. If you prefer, I will just leave the thread as is and remove my posts out of respect. |
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09-08-2009, 05:50 PM | #51 |
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I think this argument is going nowhere fast lol. You are stating the gain in power at redline is due to the stock FMIC causing heat soak, dropping boost and therefore creating a larger margin. My point is that the reason that problem no longer exists is because the FMIC IS NOW ADDED.... You see where I am coming from. Yes boost is clearly an issues as is colder denser air but that does not exist without this FMIC.
I mean based on your theory you could say its not a larger turbo that gets you more power but the increased volume of air...but without the turbo that would not exist. If you could manage to keep boost stable on both pulls I do believe the numbers would be less dramatic but as far as real world tests go this is pretty accurate. I mean how many people out there have a JB3 and would be going through this exact circumstance. how many would have the boost dropping off near redline due to heatsoak. I think that would be a pretty common thing for those running a JB3 on the stock FMIC. My point is the intercooler is preventing that decay from happening so the test and claims are valid I feel. I completely see where you are coming from but to me it seems like you are getting a little too semantic to prove a point. Please don't take that as an insult, just how I am interpreting it. Maybe I am wrong...the internet has a way of making that happen hahaha In our experience in the field I do think this is on the high side of a HP gain but not out of the realm of possibility. I do believe that this can be possibly duplicated on other cars running the same setups. I respect you being so civil and having this conversation but I feel its best for the thread that we leave this one be. Eric |
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09-08-2009, 05:55 PM | #52 | |
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09-08-2009, 06:01 PM | #53 |
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sounds good man, and by all means please continue to ask questions. I love talking to people with a brain and a level head on their shoulders. Especially about tech talk
You made very valid points and you are not wrong by any means....just merely two different ways of looking at it. Thanks Eric |
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09-08-2009, 06:05 PM | #54 | |
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That said, you are right in a sense about the IC. NO IC will add 40+ whp with no change in boost pressure. The reason that this addition did do such a thing is due to the fact that boost WAS added over the stock IC run. It's all part of the IAT decay routine intrinsic to the JB3. The whole purpose of this routine is to adapt for the increased cooling capacity of aftermarket units. The boost that has been "added" in this case is actually the boost that isn't trimmed off by the rocketing IATs. I personaly was a little skeptical, but they have dynos of cars on stock boost pressure gaining 10+ whp. There's certainly plenty of evidence that at double the factory boost, and pushing the envelope of the turbos that another 10-12 whp can be realized with the much cooler IATs, and increased flow through the unit when talking about peak power. The extra gain above 6500 can be explained by my previous few posts. Also, I was just looking at my stock boost runs. I gained 5-6 whp, but if you look, the dynos deviate in their power production in exactly the same manner as the high boost runs beginning in the low 4k region.
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09-08-2009, 06:20 PM | #55 |
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FWIW 14psi doesn't necessarily equal 14psi when it comes to making power. 14psi at 150f is a lot less dense (and therefore contains less oxygen) than 14psi at 100f.
N=PV/RT where N=moles Scenario 1 AIT:150f Pressure: 14psi Volume: .5liter (one of our cylinders) Result: .0171 Scenario 2 AIT: 100F Pressure: 14psi Volume: .5liter Result: .0186 moles By lowering AITs in the second scenario (an aftermarket intercooler) the amount of oxygen available increases by 8.7%, thus power output should increase accordingly. If the car was making 300whp prior to the aftermarket IC, then post aftermarket IC it should make ~326whp. Additional gains may come from less restriction in the intercooler resulting in reduced pumping losses. |
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09-08-2009, 06:23 PM | #56 |
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Play with this calculator and you'll quickly realize why ICs have a much more dramatic effect on cars with the boost cranked up: http://www.ajdesigner.com/idealgas/i...e_equation.php
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09-08-2009, 06:28 PM | #57 | |
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Thanks Green! Eric |
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09-08-2009, 07:03 PM | #58 |
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I'm interested in seeing how this FMIC compares to the other ones on the market, particularly Helix and VK. Also, is the AMS FMIC a simple bolt-on like the other two, or does it require a bit of modification?
Also, my understanding of the most recent discussion of the gains is that all things equal, and IC really doesn't add as much power as the OP would suggest. However, in the real world, taking into consideration heatsoak and JB3 tuning adjustments, that the gains observed by the OP can be considered a 'best case scenario.' Does that sound about right? |
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09-08-2009, 07:05 PM | #59 | |
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Take this for what you will, but run I am sure Eric will agree that if you run identical boost curves then you will know what is the AMS intercooler flow and what is common to any aftermarket intercooler. In an ideal world this is exactly what would be done, but in a world of forums and marketing this unfortunately doesn't exist. The only way to know anything is to bench flow the intercooler, log efficiency, log thermal heat capacity, etc. I haven't seen this data, so we have nothing really to go on. Look, I am just like the rest of you guys... I want the best and it seems that sometimes is nearly impossible to determine. |
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09-08-2009, 08:00 PM | #60 | |
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09-08-2009, 08:15 PM | #61 |
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Deja vous! These results aren't surprising at all. I don't see why there is such confusion.
A418t81, the JB3 maps adapt right? It's the same as me going from procede stage 2 to stage 3... I had big gains with the addition of the FMIC and stage 3 map (along with repeatable results). My results weren't confusing or weird, and neither are these! I plan on doing a new FMIC comparison shortly , so stay tuned! |
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09-08-2009, 08:15 PM | #62 | ||
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Also, you are being very misleading when you say: Quote:
-how much oxygen is in the cylinder -how much fuel is in the cylinder -thermal efficiency (CR and timing) |
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09-08-2009, 08:26 PM | #63 | |
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Sam just sent me a text and said that on STD correct, the dyno goes to ~375/404, IIRC. Hopefully I can get the stock and high boost runs in STD for a more even comparison, despite the fact that this DJ still reads a little off from the average one.
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09-09-2009, 04:11 AM | #64 | |
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Like any other testing at all, you must eliminate all outside variables to know what the intercooler is adding. In this case that can be done by running identical boost across the entire rpm range. This is a simple concept and it is the standard for testing any part... period. If you do it any other way, then this is nothing other than inferring results through a cloud of changes. An example: I run 7 psi with the stock intake and then 11 psi with DCI's and it gains 40 rwhp. Does that mean the DCI's gained 40 rwhp on my car or was it because of the increase in boost? |
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09-09-2009, 05:18 AM | #65 |
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Very interesting discussion.
With tunes adapting themselves to mods, it gets very difficult to compare hardware. There may be some objective factors (size, density, flow) which can be compared, but pure hp-gain indications don't tell the whole truth.
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09-09-2009, 05:53 AM | #66 |
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Upgraded intercooler results in more power by allowing 1. less pressure drop, 2. more boost and 3. lower intake temps. It does not make any sense to say that what would have been the power if one or two of the above would be excluded. For any normal person measuring the best power before and after the swap and calculating the difference is the gain that is attributable to the upgraded IC.
The DCI example is far off. DCI does not enable the boost to be 4psi more. So that example must include changing the map from stock to full tune. Let's slap a huge turbo on with no other changes. What happens? The car sucks. You must tune for it. So do you say that the big turbo lost power, or do you say that it gained, since it surely gains power when properly tuned for. Saying that let's keep all the other variables constant means that nothing increases power. We cannot keep the three main effects constant, since upgrading IC is done to change those three factors. Pressure loss, boost and IATs. If you have a stock IC and still try to keep the boost at the level that uis optimal for the upgraded IC, the system knocks, retards timing and loses power. So if you want to compare the results at that boost level, the gains are more than in the dyno graph. For a true gain you must compare the best results that you can have with the stock IC to the best results you can have for the upgraded IC. This is what is done in the first post. |
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