[e90yyc]

Alright—ignore all the shit I said below in this post. In retrospect I think I made this more confusing than it needs to be.

Please someone tell me this is not normal? What you’re seeing here is the steering COLUMN deflecting under load (I’m turning the wheels with the engine off). This right here is why I keep mentioning that I think something is up with my column.

That black gaiter—if I’m not mistaken—should not be moving radially, which it very much is, as you can see.

Car pulls depending on road crown, and steering wheel moves in response to uneven road surface.

Just got an alignment done at the dealership. Some improvement but steering wheel still wants to jerk back and forth over bumps, and car just generally doesn’t feel as planted as I seem to recall.

2007 328xi with ~230k mikes.

Front end:

• Full suspension refresh a couple years ago (shocks, all control arms, swaybarlinks, swaybar bushings, etc. I don’t know if there is anything that I didn’t replace. Tie rods, etc etc. all OE stuff!
  
• Steering shaft has been replaced twice now, with the most recent replacement being about a month ago.
  
• Steering rack was also replaced with a remanufactured Bosch unit, probably a couple months ago.

Rear end:

• Refreshed all control arms about a year ago, transfer case mount, diff mounte, new shocks a few years ago, poly subframe bushings, spherical ball joints for inner and outer RTAB locations, sway bar bushing, etc.

FWIW, the rear end feels great. I think my issues stem entirely from front-end shit…

Tires are only a few seasons old. Conti DWS 06 Plus. Pressures OK.

Any thoughts?

The ONLY steering-related item I have not replaced is the column itself. I understand this *could* be contributing to the issue, but I wanted to get some input before I revisit that.

Is this normal? Can someone check their car?

This is play from the steering COLUMN. The steering shaft is brand new and has no issues. (It replaced a near-new shaft that had only ~15k miles on it. So 100% this is not the shaft.)

[whyzee125]

Do you have an alignment sheet? Seeing the specs could help but assuming the alignment is a good one, I'd bet it's your rack. I've heard of numerous reman racks exhibiting some really odd behavior that can't be explained but becomes fixed with a new or used OE rack.

[e90yyc]

Originally Posted by whyzee125

Do you have an alignment sheet? Seeing the specs could help but assuming the alignment is a good one, I'd bet it's your rack. I've heard of numerous reman racks exhibiting some really odd behavior that can't be explained but becomes fixed with a new or used OE rack.

Thanks for the reply!

Yup! Will post later.

Ughhhhh. I really hope not. It’s Bosch, so I’d think their QC should be pretty tight!? Since I’m in Canada and only have about 8 months of warranty left (bought it from RA), I don’t even want to think about the logistics and cost of exchanging it (nevermind the PITA install).

Anyway, I would tend to agree with you if it wasn’t for the fact that the old rack felt no different. And unlike this one, it was at times making some grinding noises. On the bench this new rack felt tight (in a good way) and there was no perceptible lash between the pinion and rack.

I suppose the question I’m asking myself is: Other than proper suspension geometry, tires, etc, what is responsible for holding the car straight when lateral (and other directional) forces are acting on the tires?

For the sake of argument I’ll assume the rack itself is okay, so this is what brings me back to the steering column itself. In the absence of a “solid” connection between the steering wheel and the rack input—lateral play in the column output shaft, for instance—I’d think you could get excessive tramlining and other undesirable shit. I could be wrong though. I’m basing this off of what a bad steering shaft can cause, as well as the very few reports I’ve read about bad columns.

Because it seems rack failure is relatively uncommon, I’m struggling to accept that my “new” reman rack that feels the same as my old rack that I pulled from some shitbox in the junkyard, is the source of my issue…

Finding a column has been a challenge though. Most on eBay are higher mileage, but I haven’t checked for a while. (It’s also expensive to ship, so I want to buy the right one…)

[whyzee125]

Originally Posted by e90yyc

Thanks for the reply!

Yup! Will post later.

Ughhhhh. I really hope not. It’s Bosch, so I’d think their QC should be pretty tight!? Since I’m in Canada and only have about 8 months of warranty left (bought it from RA), I don’t even want to think about the logistics and cost of exchanging it (nevermind the PITA install).

Anyway, I would tend to agree with you if it wasn’t for the fact that the old rack felt no different. And unlike this one, it was at times making some grinding noises. On the bench this new rack felt tight (in a good way) and there was no perceptible lash between the pinion and rack.

I suppose the question I’m asking myself is: Other than proper suspension geometry, tires, etc, what is responsible for holding the car straight when lateral (and other directional) forces are acting on the tires?

For the sake of argument I’ll assume the rack itself is okay, so this is what brings me back to the steering column itself. In the absence of a “solid” connection between the steering wheel and the rack input—lateral play in the column output shaft, for instance—I’d think you could get excessive tramlining and other undesirable shit. I could be wrong though. I’m basing this off of what a bad steering shaft can cause, as well as the very few reports I’ve read about bad columns.

Because it seems rack failure is relatively uncommon, I’m struggling to accept that my “new” reman rack that feels the same as my old rack that I pulled from some shitbox in the junkyard, is the source of my issue…

Finding a column has been a challenge though. Most on eBay are higher mileage, but I haven’t checked for a while. (It’s also expensive to ship, so I want to buy the right one…)

I'd tend to agree, if the new and old rack feel the same, that's likely not your issue. Did it start slowly or out of the blue? Have you tried a different set of wheels and tires?

[dmatre]

Are wheels stock? Spacers? Lowered?

All change steering feel, and can have the effect you describe.

Toe out is also highly reactionary to road imperfections.

Stability is not a typical BMW problem….

[e90yyc]

Originally Posted by dmatre

Are wheels stock? Spacers? Lowered?

All change steering feel, and can have the effect you describe.

Toe out is also highly reactionary to road imperfections.

Stability is not a typical BMW problem….

Yes, no, no.

Will have to post alignment sheet, but I’m pretty sure she’s all in spec. I welcome any/all input though.

BMW Style 285 (17’s) with Conti DWS 06 Plus. Other set is the haggard ass Style 156 16’s with winters. I suppose I could swap them again and see if it changes.

Agreed on the stability comment… In your view, could looseness in the steering linkage cause this problem?

Put another way, even on Day 1 when this car was brand new, if I took it onto a shitty road and let go of the steering wheel, I’d expect Jesus (the road) to take the wheel and send me god-knows-where, no?

Just questioning my understanding of all this stuff, haha…

whyzee125 I want to say it came on somewhat gradually, but the truth is I can’t say that for sure. I’ve done a ton of work on the car and will have to think hard about whether I did something that could have caused it, or if it just kind of started on its own.

I’ll post a video of the area where column meets shaft to show how there’s play (NOT caused by shaft but from column) in the hopes that someone can check their car and see if it’s the same… That might be the most definitive way to rule the column out at this point.

Thx!

[eljay]

As mentioned, toe settings change the "wandering" behaviour significantly and so does the type of tire. DWS are pretty compliant. But I know that when I switch from winter Michelins to summer Indy 500 tires, there's a noticeable increase in "following the road imperfections".

Steering-wise, I would lubricate the U-joint between the column and the rack and see if the behaviour improves.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by e90yyc

Car pulls under braking depending on road crown, and steering wheel moves in response to uneven road surface.... 2007 328xi with ~230k miles...[*]Steering shaft has been replaced twice now, with the most recent replacement being about a month ago.

Was the Lower Shaft with Joint Assembly (U-Joint) replaced?
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=32_1616
Have you tried aggressively moving each front wheel, roadwheel still in place but Jacked (off ground), hands at 3 & 9 o'clock to see what moves or where the "slack" is?
Were Outer Tie Rod Ends replaced?
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=32_1510
Are all ball joint dust covers/seals intact?
Are Rack Mounts intact to prevent Rack lateral movement?
George

[e90yyc]

Originally Posted by eljay

As mentioned, toe settings change the "wandering" behaviour significantly and so does the type of tire. DWS are pretty compliant. But I know that when I switch from winter Michelins to summer Indy 500 tires, there's a noticeable increase in "following the road imperfections".

Steering-wise, I would lubricate the U-joint between the column and the rack and see if the behaviour improves.

Thanks! Yeah I’ve heard tires can have a major impact…

Steering shaft (lower) is brand new, so she’s all lubed. Bolts replaced and torqued correctly.

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

Was the Lower Shaft with Joint Assembly (U-Joint) replaced?
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=32_1616
Have you tried aggressively moving each front wheel, roadwheel still in place but Jacked (off ground), hands at 3 & 9 o'clock to see what moves or where the "slack" is?
Were Outer Tie Rod Ends replaced?
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=32_1510
Are all ball joint dust covers/seals intact?
Are Rack Mounts intact to prevent Rack lateral movement?
George

Forgot to mention: Full tie rods replaced along with all the other components. Truly everything is new, lol. Except column…

I’ll check the ball joint dust covers, but I want to say yes.

Rack mounts should be good; I just put the reman rack in not long ago and double-checked everything.

When I’ve checked for play in the past, I keep finding myself back at the column… I’ve spent a ton of time fiddling with all sorts of combinations of tests—holding this thing while turning that, etc—and if I grab the input spine at the rack and move it, the wheels turn as I’d expect.

Ideally I’d be able to fix the wheels straight ahead, turn the steering wheel, and see if there’s any deflection where the lower shaft and column meet. That’s what I’m expecting to see. At this point I’ve spent a lot of time filming and watching that point while wiggling wheel etc. I’m seeing movement “outside” the axis I’d expect, if that makes sense?

I’m going to sketch something up to illustrate WTF I’m talking about and will also take some videos and pics of the spot I’m referring to. Hopefully someone can confirm if theirs behaves the same way!

Critical addition: When travelling downhill, the issue seems to abate. More specifically, the dead zone in the steering seems to tighten up, if that makes sense?

When the steering feels “loaded” under lateral/turning force, there’s no problem. It’s only when pointed forward that it seems to be an issue.

Alignment specs attached.

[Brian86]

I get confused with +/- toe in degrees and minutes. I always think in terms of in/out and in inches being south of the border.

You want toe in. Is positive toe in or out?

If you're running toe out, the car is going to wander a lot when trying to go straight.

If I'm doing the conversation right +8 minutes in the front is something like 1/16", and +6 minutes in the rear is perhaps 3/64". (assuming that + is "in")

That sounds about right in the rear. Taking the front up to about 15-16 minutes (smidgen under 1/8") would be perfectly acceptable and should help the front track to track straight. Tire wear will be negligible there.

I pretty much set my street cars about 3/32"ish toe-in in the front, and as close to zero erroring on toe-in in the rear.

On the race track very subtle rear toe changes can make some reasonably dramatic changes to limit handling. Front toe doesn't change much except how 'enthusiastic' the initial turn-in feels.

[schwing]

I had same issue with front end that would oscillate and not settle after small bumps/ruts. Eventually, front end made clunking sounds over bad pavement. I isolated issue to right front passenger side. Bilstein strut I installed a few years ago went bad with signs of leaking oil. Replaced under Bilstein warranty.

[eljay]

Originally Posted by schwing

I had same issue with front end that would oscillate and not settle after small bumps/ruts. Eventually, front end made clunking sounds over bad pavement. I isolated issue to right front passenger side. Bilstein strut I installed a few years ago went bad with signs of leaking oil. Replaced under Bilstein warranty.

I've had this issue on my former Audi when strut mount went bad. But OP says he replaced shocks and everything. Perhaps rechecking the nuts for correct torque may be worthwhile.

[e90yyc]

Originally Posted by eljay

I've had this issue on my former Audi when strut mount went bad. But OP says he replaced shocks and everything. Perhaps rechecking the nuts for correct torque may be worthwhile.

Will double-check the mounts! Appreciate the feedback.

Strut mounts might be three years old now; didn’t consider them as a possible cause of the problem. I have in my head that this is related in some way to steering linkage given the play on centre, but this is a good suggestion.

[lowrydr310]

Originally Posted by eljay

As mentioned, toe settings change the "wandering" behaviour significantly and so does the type of tire.

I'm going through something similar with a E93 335i that I just picked up a few weeks ago. In addition to the wandering there's also a weird bouncy feeling from the front, however I'm not jumping to conclusions yet. I redid the front suspension and haven't driven much yet until my tires arrive, then I'm getting an alignment. I installed M3 wishbones so my toe is definitely NOT correct.

But for comparison, I also have a E90 330i that handles like a go-kart with zero wandering and a very stable planted feeling.

[Nando_e90]

I’ve been through the same thing since I bought my 06 330i (17” wheels) 5 years ago. Even with the previous bilsteins B6 I felt the steering “weak”. If we are in the same page, there is a name for it: “Bump Steer”.

I think it has to do with alignment and tires, but it’s annoying since you can’t feel safe and planted while driving and hesitate when want to speed up on not-perfect roads.

I have come to consider to give runflats a chance. I think that, in my case, running full stock standard suspension and 17” wheels with non-rft can have a lot to do, since the car was set up to use runflats.

[marvinstockman]

Steering damper, but I don't believe we have one!

Is there play in steering wheel?

Has anyone followed you in another car and observed your tires?

From the steering column link: https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...mn-32306780274

1. there's an upper bearing

2. also a lower bearing

3. Are the splines damaged where the shaft attaches to the column?

[marvinstockman]

By play, I mean movement up/down and side-to-side.

[e90yyc]

Originally Posted by marvinstockman

Steering damper, but I don't believe we have one!

Is there play in steering wheel?

Has anyone followed you in another car and observed your tires?

From the steering column link: https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...mn-32306780274

1. there's an upper bearing

2. also a lower bearing

3. Are the splines damaged where the shaft attaches to the column?

Thanks!

Yes—I have pulled one from a junkyard car and swapped it in but it seemed to have similar play (lower bearing most likely) so I couldn’t feel much if any difference.

Splines are perfect. I’ve checked bolts and tried tightening them as well and made no difference.

There is a bit of play in the wheel, and that’s where all the action seems to happen, if that makes sense? Until I’ve “taken up the slack” it seems a bit loose and feels disconnected.

This is why I keep coming back to steering linkage (column, really…). I probably should’ve been clearer in my original post about this. I don’t think it’s a suspension issue simply because I see indications of a problem even when the car is off and stationary.

If there’s something I can do to isolate this I’m all ears. Going to take a video shortly to show the play I’m seeing, and hopefully someone can check their car and see if it’s the same.

[e90yyc]

Video added to post.

Would be very grateful if someone without any issues could check their car and let me know if their COLUMN has similar play to mine.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by e90yyc

Video added to post. Would be very grateful if someone without any issues could check their car and let me know if their COLUMN has similar play to mine.

As I viewed your video, you did NOT rotate the steering shaft to test for play in the U-Joint, but rather Deflected the Lower Steering Shaft in the Vertical Plane with what appeared to be downward deflection of the Rack Tower to which Lower Shaft is attached.

If you have rotation of the Rack "Axially" (around the axis of the Rack) that suggests you MAY also have LATERAL movement of the Rack as a result of defective Mounts/ Attachment of the Rack to the Chassis. If that is the case, even if you hold the Steering Wheel steady, the Road wheels turn Left/Right slightly (or more than slightly ;-) when road camber changes, tram-lining, etc. exert lateral forces on rack.

If I'm "missing something" in my viewing of the video, please advise.
George

[e90yyc]

gbalthrop Thanks for the reply George!


I did not rotate the shaft because it’s brand new and replaced a shaft that was only ~15k miles old but that seemed to have developed a knocking noise coming from the centering yoke at the double-cardan joint. (The core issue did not resolve after replacing the lower shaft.)

The movement I’m most curious about here is coming from the COLUMN itself. The only reason I’m yanking on the lower shaft is because detaching it from the column is an un-fun exercise that I’d rather not do unless absolutely necessary. (To be clear, I’ve detached these components many times and have yanked every which way, but for the sake of the video I did not take anything apart.)


I will take a look at my rack mounts, but keep in mind this is an xDrive vehicle and so this bolts to the front subframe. The mounting points are very secure and I made sure to torque to spec when I replaced the rack ~1 month ago, so that’s why I haven’t focussed a ton of energy on the rack or rack mounts, since this issue seemed to remain despite replacing the rack.

The reason I’m also not spending much time on suspension components is that A) they’re all quite new (including full tie rods) and B) the issue seems to be, at its lowest level, related to lash in the steering wheel. As I type this out I am thinking I should take a close look at tension struts, but every time I’ve inspected them I haven’t found any evidence of leaking bushing or other signs of failure. I also understand they’re more likely to cause stability issues at higher speeds, and my issue is more related to dead steering on center that causes issues at any speed (or no speed at all—just when standing still, haha.).

Apologies if the details in my OP were murky. In an effort to be as thorough as possible I think I made things more confusing.

When I’m driving straight ahead—wheel dead centre. hands at 10 and 2—and the crown of the road changes, I can feel a transfer of weight from one hand to the other. When the steering assembly is under greater load such as during a turn, I don’t have issues, though I still feel there’s something slightly off.

The rack is like a month old (reman Bosch) and inspection on the bench prior to instal did not turn up any issues. There was no change in the issue after rack replacement either, which is why I’m not homing in on that at the moment.

All of this brings me back to quite literally the only steering component not yet replaced: the column.

As you can see in the video, despite the column being FIRMLY mounted (I’ve checked this many times), there is axial play coming from the region I’ve circled in the attached pic. ***I have removed the steering column and confirmed on the bench that this axial play is the column itself***

[Tambohamilton]

Any steering issues when stationary/parking? Particularly with the engine at idle too? Like, at a standstill, engine idling, if you go lock to lock does it judder or groan etc?

I feel like my car has a similar issue to yours, and I'm aware my steering pump is weak/worn. I'm also aware that I have similar play in the column (I'd call that radial, btw), which improves when the wheel is adjusted fully forward (away from the driver); the play is in the telescoping part that allows axial (in/out) steering wheel adjustment.

That said, I'm rwd so maybe it's something entirely unrelated