[methodtim]

Originally Posted by sdslayer

MT - don't forget the global economy is in shambles also..

should I forgo the new idrive and try to find an 08 with my options?

It's funny because I would be driving an 08 already if my CA had been responsive enough to tell me the cutoff for ordering 08s.

This has nothing to do with the global economy. The cars have been ordered and (will be) paid for. This is either 1) stupid government bureaucracy or 2) stupid corporate games. Either way, it's the consumer (i.e. us) who's getting the shaft. Now I understand that it's not that big a deal in the long haul, but when we've been waiting two, three, four months for something, to have it delayed even further for no good reason is infuriating.

As to whether you should go looking for an 08, I have no idea. I don't think you'll be able to find an 08 left that would match your desired spec, but by all means, go for it. Choice is the consumer's best weapon.

[LionRampant]

Originally Posted by 3er858

If this IS the case, our cars better not have lag issues!!! Does anyone know where this info is comming from? Official? Rumor? Speculation? Hear say? BS? OK, I'll stop...

My note above is largely speculation, though it is supported by a few assertions made by a number of current 335i owners in threads related to the 29.2 progman version and its associated detuning (commonly referenced as turbo lag).

BMW has apparently discovered a premature wear issue on N54 drivetrains at around 22k miles which results in wastegate flutter or rattle. Their initial response to this issue was to detune the engine with the much-hated 29.2 progman version, which acted to reduce the wear or at least stave it off until after the 50k warranty period. According to several folks relating word from their SAs, their current policy is no longer to attempt remedy of this issue with the 29.2 software, but instead to address the wastegate flutter issue when it occurs by replacing parts within the affected system with revised versions. Those same parts are generally thought to be included in the MY 2009 production models. That all would be hearsay, third-hand information, and such.

My speculation is that those part changes are significant enough or affect a system in a manner prohibited by EPA certification rules, thus requiring the revised drivetrain to be recertified. I would guess that to this point, they have been unable to install the revised parts in U.S. model drivetrains because doing so would invalidate the certification of any vehicle so modified. Software changes, like the 29.2 progman update, might not have the same effect on the certification, and thus they went that route until they could get the revised parts through the certification process (in the form of the 2009 *35i models). Once certified, the revised parts could be installed in existing drivetrains without invalidating the EPA certificate.

Of course, this is complete wild speculation; I have seen no official word on any of this. There would seem little reason why the *35i models were singled out for delay and why "EPA certification" is often cited as the cause unless something has changed to require that certification. It is merely a guess, and not a terribly educated one given the paucity of good information available.

--LR

[LionRampant]

Originally Posted by jamo

I forgot to add one thing my CA said when he told me that all 09's were being held till all the 08's were transported to the dealers. He also said they may be holding the 09's till they sell or clear many of the 08's from the dealerships. He said I've seen this happen before .Now who is lying .BMW would take a lot of complaints from all of us who are pissed about this if they were holding our 09's to have more time to clear the 08's. But now they can pass the buck and blame the EPA. Hows that for a theory or are they just driving me nuts . waiting. jamo

I find this to be unlikely. BMW NA has cars effectively bought and paid-for--virtually guaranteed sales--sitting at the VPC. While it may be in their interest to hold normal dealer inventory until the '08 models clear out, it is certainly not benefiting them to hold custom-order vehicles in such a manner. There is no conceivable business reason why they would place a blanket hold on all '09 *35i models (and only those models) solely of their own accord. It is far more likely, to my mind, that they are being forced to hold these models by an outside entity or process, likely the one alluded to by a number of sources--the EPA.

--LR

[Crisp]

As a first time BMW buyer, this is a huge turn-off for me.
I am going to think twice before ordering another BMW in my life.
As of right now, I don't think it's worth waiting from almost half a year for a damn BMW. I feel like I am getting a custom made Lamborghini that they only produce once a year.

At the same time, for this reason, I don't think it is BMW's fault because they would not risk getting such a reaction from a buyer.

I know, I know...contradictory.

[sdslayer]

Originally Posted by methodtim

This has nothing to do with the global economy.

I wasn't suggesting that these two events are correlated. I was merely noting that there are other things going on that are even more depressing.

[3er858]

Originally Posted by LionRampant

My note above is largely speculation, though it is supported by a few assertions made by a number of current 335i owners in threads related to the 29.2 progman version and its associated detuning (commonly referenced as turbo lag).

BMW has apparently discovered a premature wear issue on N54 drivetrains at around 22k miles which results in wastegate flutter or rattle. Their initial response to this issue was to detune the engine with the much-hated 29.2 progman version, which acted to reduce the wear or at least stave it off until after the 50k warranty period. According to several folks relating word from their SAs, their current policy is no longer to attempt remedy of this issue with the 29.2 software, but instead to address the wastegate flutter issue when it occurs by replacing parts within the affected system with revised versions. Those same parts are generally thought to be included in the MY 2009 production models. That all would be hearsay, third-hand information, and such.

My speculation is that those part changes are significant enough or affect a system in a manner prohibited by EPA certification rules, thus requiring the revised drivetrain to be recertified. I would guess that to this point, they have been unable to install the revised parts in U.S. model drivetrains because doing so would invalidate the certification of any vehicle so modified. Software changes, like the 29.2 progman update, might not have the same effect on the certification, and thus they went that route until they could get the revised parts through the certification process (in the form of the 2009 *35i models). Once certified, the revised parts could be installed in existing drivetrains without invalidating the EPA certificate.

Of course, this is complete wild speculation; I have seen no official word on any of this. There would seem little reason why the *35i models were singled out for delay and why "EPA certification" is often cited as the cause unless something has changed to require that certification. It is merely a guess, and not a terribly educated one given the paucity of good information available.

--LR

Lion, thanks for that... what you said makes alot of sense. The question then becomes, why don't the CA's have this information to pass on to US! I hate mysteries, just give me the facts, good or bad.

Originally Posted by jamo

I forgot to add one thing my CA said when he told me that all 09's were being held till all the 08's were transported to the dealers. He also said they may be holding the 09's till they sell or clear many of the 08's from the dealerships. He said I've seen this happen before .Now who is lying .BMW would take a lot of complaints from all of us who are pissed about this if they were holding our 09's to have more time to clear the 08's. But now they can pass the buck and blame the EPA. Hows that for a theory or are they just driving me nuts . waiting. jamo

This isn't true. My CA told me that they have '09 328i's at the dealer right now. (Long Beach BMW)

Originally Posted by Crisp

As a first time BMW buyer, this is a huge turn-off for me.
I am going to think twice before ordering another BMW in my life.
As of right now, I don't think it's worth waiting from almost half a year for a damn BMW. I feel like I am getting a custom made Lamborghini that they only produce once a year.

At the same time, for this reason, I don't think it is BMW's fault because they would not risk getting such a reaction from a buyer.

I know, I know...contradictory.

We are all extremely frustrated by this news... However, once you have your car, you will soon forget this ever happened. I'm also pretty sure that when it comes time to buy another car, you won't settle for anything other than a BMW! I agree with the suggestion that BMW has nothing to due with this delay. If they did change enough stuff to require recertification, then I have to believe we will benefit from these new technologies and have a better, more reliable car in the long run. I'M STILL PISSED THOUGH!

[JBiddy]

i am sooooooo depressed !!!!!!!

[3er858]

Just got off the phone with BMWNA... It's all true. They said it shouldn't take long because it's more of an audit, not a full recertification... she couldn't give me any dates for when this is happening, she said it's ongoing...

Shouldn't this have taken place before mass production of the '09s? I thought the process went something like this: BMW finds a problem and makes changes, does internal tests to make sure it passes their obviously high standards, examples are sent out for government testing in whichever market the cars are destine for, mass production, THEN distribution. I guess I was wrong.

[Diamond Skyline]

well if we are getting better quality cars (better components, no lag, solutions to previous problems) than i think the wait is worth it

but i agree with you 3er858.. they should have done this prior to distribution.. bad process flow on BMW's part

[LionRampant]

Originally Posted by 3er858

Just got off the phone with BMWNA... It's all true. They said it shouldn't take long because it's more of an audit, not a full recertification... she couldn't give me any dates for when this is happening, she said it's ongoing...

Shouldn't this have taken place before mass production of the '09s? I thought the process went something like this: BMW finds a problem and makes changes, does internal tests to make sure it passes their obviously high standards, examples are sent out for government testing in whichever market the cars are destine for, mass production, THEN distribution. I guess I was wrong.

I believe you are correct about how it should have happened. This whole thing has the feel of a last-minute rush, as if the decision to revise the N54 and the required recertification took place considerably later than we would expect to be the case. Corporate politics may have been involved, with the engineering changes to remedy the wear issue competing with the specter of a costly emissions-related recall on all U.S. pre-2009 *35i models.

The additional delay is troublesome, especially for those who have waited a number of months for their new car to hit U.S. shores. Hopefully the silver lining of this particular cloud--*35i models without the turbo lag and wastegate wear issues--proves to be worth the extra wait.

--LR

[jamo]

sorry for sounding dumb , but what is CARBS something to do with the EPA.

[digivue]

Whatever the reason is for the hold up, I am pretty sure this is beneficial for BMW - helps to clear out '08 inventory.

[digivue]

Originally Posted by jamo

sorry for sounding dumb , but what is CARBS something to do with the EPA.

This is a California thing - California Air Resources Board.

[JBiddy]

Originally Posted by digivue

Whatever the reason is for the hold up, I am pretty sure this is beneficial for BMW - helps to clear out '08 inventory.

oooo yeah!!!!! but its bullshit for us that have been waiting for 3-4 months

[JBiddy]

EPA certification is...........................EPA :finger:

[digivue]

Originally Posted by JBiddy

oooo yeah!!!!! but its bullshit for us that have been waiting for 3-4 months

Agree, sucks big time...

[methodtim]

Sucks. Thanks, Lion, for your mindful analysis of the situation. Thanks also to 3er for confirming this with BMWNA.

As for me, I'm going to sit here and pout. And when that doesn't work, I'm going to pout some more.

[mapezzul]

Guys,

My first post here in a LONG time.... just wanted to let you know that the EPA thing was NOT BMWs fault. I had known about the 10/13 date for sometime as that was the original date the EPA stated certification would be completed by.

The EPA is a government agency and as such they have their own schedule and appear to be a bit behind. I was told it was re-certification due to changes in the engine and also a reanalyses of MPG ratings since BMW contested them.

I have a few sources on this and get different takes, but all include the EPA. Has nothing to do with selling 2008 cars, as '09 X28s are already at dealers.

There is some good news to this all, the delay may end up saving you all some money. If you read elsewhere today, sources have told me that there will be new sales and marketing programs tomorrow..... a positive thing.

Hopefully the x35 models will be released by next week. I am not familiar with Cali rules in regards to CARB but the cars will need to clear that as well so for you out there I feel for you, it sucks and I went through this wait game back in '05 and they kept my car for over a month....

Best of luck!

[DDG77AOE1]

The EPA certifies vehicles for sale in the US; however, some states (originally CA), have more stringent emissions control requirements than the EPA minimums. I am not 100% sure, but I think there are now around 12 states that use the CARB standards. Unfortunately, it appears that CARB cannot complete their cert process until after the EPA is done. According to my mole, the CARB issue should not hold up shipping of the vehicles to non-CARB states once the EPA recert is completed (ostensibly Oct 13). It may not even hold up shipping of vehicles to CARB states - it just may mean that your dealer cannot release them to you until after CARB approval is given. I would seek guidance from your individual dealers.

[JBiddy]

so is it for sure that EPA will recert the vehicles by oct. 13???? who can verify this for sure????
thank you

[jamo]

just got off the phone with my CA ,I haven't spoke to him in over two weeks trying not to bug him. He called me and asked if I have called corporate again and I told him I did and that they confirmed the 09's were being held up for EPA recertification and didn't give me a date when they would be released. I told him I've heard 10-13 and now 10-23 or 10-24 as everyone has posted those dates in the last day or so. He said we just got notified that they are being held up for EPA recertification and they told us 10-28. He also said that the dealership had a meeting with the regional manager and he would get back to me if anything has changed from his notification date of 10-28. So who knows when.It sounds like BMWNA isn't keeping the dealerships up to speed and we may have a few more weeks of waiting.

[jamo]

is NY state CARB state.