[e90dum]

My traction control unit took a shit(which I am NOT looking forward to researching) and the brake light is always lit in yellow along with the traction control light, so I suspect this makes it hard to figure out what really happened, but after ~25 minutes of beating the crap out of the car on a track(and this was the 3rd or 4th time that day, i was proud of my n52) it went into what I thought was limp mode, because I lost power and it didn't rev anywhere as responsive as it did(But no engine light), so I just pulled over and waited a min with the car off then drove it off the track and it was acting normal again. My question is how do I prevent this from happening? I've seen some people add oil pumps to their car but is that the right answer/what do y'all recommend? I want to do what's best for the car so I can keep beating it up without that issue again

[boro92]

It's not the motor. It's the calculated brake temps (yes the car does this). You need to code it out, or it will go into limp mode. BMW has an algorithm for figuring out brake temps and once a threshold is exceeded, you will see limp mode. Not only that, but it will vary the hydraulic pressure to the brakes depending on the moving speed and pedal input--resulting in inconsistent braking cause the freaking car is intervening. Read this post and code out the nannies: http://www.onelapx1.com/blog/how-to-...w-actually-fun

[e90dum]

Originally Posted by boro92

It's not the motor. It's the calculated brake temps (yes the car does this). You need to code it out, or it will go into limp mode. BMW has an algorithm for figuring out brake temps and once a threshold is exceeded, you will see limp mode. Not only that, but it will vary the hydraulic pressure to the brakes depending on the moving speed and pedal input--resulting in inconsistent braking cause the freaking car is intervening. Read this post and code out the nannies: http://www.onelapx1.com/blog/how-to-...w-actually-fun

After watching a corvette plow 90 miles an hour toward a crowd yesterday that sensor sounds like a godsend to be honest. I was going to replace my brake lines and rotors/pads, so this sounds like a problem that is going to solve its self. Thanks so much


Now, does my BMW actually detect the brake temp or does it use some crazy algorithm that I should code out if i replace with better quality parts

[hassmaschine]

It uses an algorithm - there is no sensor. Even if (and especially if) you upgrade your brakes to something track worthy, I would seriously consider disabling this "feature".

[e90dum]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

It uses an algorithm - there is no sensor. Even if (and especially if) you upgrade your brakes to something track worthy, I would seriously consider disabling this "feature".

Will do. I'll go spam bimmergeeks's inbox

[justpete]

Originally Posted by e90dum

My traction control unit took a shit(which I am NOT looking forward to researching) and the brake light is always lit in yellow along with the traction control light, so I suspect this makes it hard to figure out what really happened, but after ~25 minutes of beating the crap out of the car on a track(and this was the 3rd or 4th time that day, i was proud of my n52) it went into what I thought was limp mode, because I lost power and it didn't rev anywhere as responsive as it did(But no engine light), so I just pulled over and waited a min with the car off then drove it off the track and it was acting normal again. My question is how do I prevent this from happening? I've seen some people add oil pumps to their car but is that the right answer/what do y'all recommend? I want to do what's best for the car so I can keep beating it up without that issue again

This only happens if you're overbraking. The better you get at driving the less likely it is to happen. If you want to completely remove the ABS and DSC systems from any functionality at all just unplug the steering angle sensor. Probably not a popular option though, I'm guessing.

[hassmaschine]

Never been a fan of ABS deletes - unless you know how to modulate individual brake calipers through pedal modulation (a physical impossibility), ABS is faster than no ABS. DSC as well - though the default settings are annoyingly intrusive, the reality is the system is capable of things that few humans are - if your name isn't Mario Andretti or Michael Schumacher, you're kidding yourself if you think you are better off without them.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

Never been a fan of ABS deletes - unless you know how to modulate individual brake calipers through pedal modulation (a physical impossibility), ABS is faster than no ABS. DSC as well - though the default settings are annoyingly intrusive, the reality is the system is capable of things that few humans are - if your name isn't Mario Andretti or Michael Schumacher, you're kidding yourself if you think you are better off without them.

Nah, but we drove cars for decades without it, won't miss it.

[Terraphantm]

Originally Posted by justpete

Nah, but we drove cars for decades without it, won't miss it.

"Nah, but we shat in the woods for millions of years before plumbing, won't miss it."

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Terraphantm

"Nah, but we shat in the woods for millions of years before plumbing, won't miss it."

You're catching on.

If you need computers to help you drive, you can't.

[boro92]

Wait wait wait re: dsc--yes, a track oriented system would be far superior than anything. But ones typical on these kinds of cars (read: not ats-v, corvette etc), dsc is in fact slower. I am consistently faster on track with dsc off - with logs that show this. It's too intrusive at the limit and prevents the driver from making the car do specific things on purpose! Abs on the other hand...is just better than non abs. No question.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by boro92

Wait wait wait re: dsc--yes, a track oriented system would be far superior than anything. But ones typical on these kinds of cars (read: not ats-v, corvette etc), dsc is in fact slower. I am consistently faster on track with dsc off - with logs that show this. It's too intrusive at the limit and prevents the driver from making the car do specific things on purpose! Abs on the other hand...is just better than non abs. No question.

Exactly my point. There's a world of difference between needing computers to help one drive and being so good they can actually be helpful and there's not a single soul on e90post that good.

BTW, if you're competent with threshold braking then by definition ABS is never actuated and thus you never need it.

[Terraphantm]

Originally Posted by justpete

BTW, if you're competent with threshold braking then by definition ABS is never actuated and thus you never need it.

Except, as hass mentioned, ABS can modulate each brake individually while a human can only activate all 4 at the same time. So if you have a situation where 1 wheel has less traction than the rest, ABS can brake more effectively than any human can, regardless of skill.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Terraphantm

Except, as hass mentioned, ABS can modulate each brake individually while a human can only activate all 4 at the same time. So if you have a situation where 1 wheel has less traction than the rest, ABS can brake more effectively than any human can, regardless of skill.

Sure but that's not applicable on the track except in wet conditions which don't concern me. Funny though how so many were able to race in the wet in the past without ABS. If only there were some way that could be possible.

Besides, threshold braking, no ABS, so it doesn't matter how it works. Not sure how this is confusing.

[Terraphantm]

Originally Posted by justpete

Sure but that's not applicable on the track except in wet conditions which don't concern me. Funny though how so many were able to race in the wet in the past without ABS. If only there were some way that could be possible.

Besides, threshold braking, no ABS, so it doesn't matter how it works. Not sure how this is confusing.

So you think even in dry track conditions all 4 wheels have the same amount of traction at all times? And for that matter, this thread isn't even about track or any sort of non-street driving. You could threshold brake all you want, but all 4 wheels will never have the same precise threshold at any given moment - that's where ABS can, and does, allow for improvement.

Just because something was possible in the past doesn't mean there haven't been improvements since then. Like I said, we used to shit in the woods - now we have plumbing. I think that's better, maybe you don't.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Terraphantm

So you think even in dry track conditions all 4 wheels have the same amount of traction at all times? And for that matter, this thread isn't even about track or any sort of non-street driving.

Just because something was possible in the past doesn't mean there haven't been improvements since then. Like I said, we used to shit in the woods - now we have plumbing. I think that's better, maybe you don't.

Not sure where you get that, I didn't say that or imply it. Nice strawman though.

Of course there have been improvements. Knock yourself out, didn't say it wasn't better, simply said it's a crutch.

Oh wait, are you saying weight transfer affects braking effectiveness per wheel? If so, well duh, no kidding. And you know braking is predominantly effective for weight transfer, right?

And don't forget this part of the thread was indeed a response to a post about on-track stability and ABS use.

[hassmaschine]

Originally Posted by justpete

Sure but that's not applicable on the track except in wet conditions which don't concern me. Funny though how so many were able to race in the wet in the past without ABS. If only there were some way that could be possible.

Besides, threshold braking, no ABS, so it doesn't matter how it works. Not sure how this is confusing.

Why isn't it applicable? I realize you live in a drier climate than I do, but we don't shut down a track day because it's a little wet out.

Pretty much all modern race cars have some form of ABS - and even DSC, although not the gimped version that the E9x got. Would be cool if you could flash it like the DSC unit on the E46 M3 CSL / ZHP.

[Terraphantm]

Originally Posted by justpete

Not sure where you get that, I didn't say that or imply it. Nice strawman though.

Of course there have been improvements. Knock yourself out, didn't say it wasn't better, simply said it's a crutch.

Oh wait, are you saying weight transfer affects braking effectiveness per wheel? If so, well duh, no kidding. And you know braking is predominantly effective for weight transfer, right?

And don't forget this part of the thread was indeed a response to a post about on-track stability and ABS use.

Weight transfer effects it of course, as does the state of the tire itself (temperature being a big one).

Is it a crutch for a marathon runner to wear running shoes instead of going barefoot? I don't think so - it's a tool. Likewise for ABS. If you prefer going old school that's one thing, but to pretend it doesn't have a use is willful ignorance.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

Why isn't it applicable? I realize you live in a drier climate than I do, but we don't shut down a track day because it's a little wet out.

So tracks and racing didn't exist prior to the universal application of ABS? Reductio ad absurdum. If you can't drive a track in the wet without ABS then you don't know car control, it's that simple. Try it and you'll discover just how much some software is trying to do the driving you can't. And doing a piss poor job of it to boot. BMW The Ultimate Boredom Machine ABS is nowhere adequate for track use, it gets in the way, tries to drive the car badly on aggressive corner entry, attempting to rotate into the apex, hard trail braking, etc. No one would ever mistake it for "motorsport ABS".

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

Pretty much all modern race cars have some form of ABS - and even DSC, although not the gimped version that the E9x got. Would be cool if you could flash it like the DSC unit on the E46 M3 CSL / ZHP.

No, modern race cars do not pretty much all have ABS, that's wrong. All of the amateur converted street car racers do, most likely, and F1, etc. at the pinnacle of the sport but an awful lot have simple pedal boxes and balance bars, mainly cuz they know how to drive.

And there are race shops out there that specialize in flashing ABS units to be suitable for race use. G-Speed is one that manages it for Corvettes since their stock ABS is nowhere near adequate either. They also make a fully manual brake system sans ABS for guy who professionally race vettes.

Bear in mind I didn't say ABS wasn't useful, merely that in its street form it sucks on the track and so far I haven't missed it for a second from what I could tell dive bombing on the street before the diff went south. But then I learned car control in an old Corolla *mumble* decades ago with bias ply tires, manual steering, manual brakes, and no common sense on the dusty as hell and surprisingly heavily crowned streets of Lubbock where you can drift every turn on neighborhood streets once you get the hang of it. So I've learned along the way as radial tires came along, on the same car, etc. And street stability controls and ABS absolutely are not adequate to the task of on-the-edge car control, they were never intended to be and if you push it you can tell just how much the shitty driver behind the software is fucking up your line.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Terraphantm

Weight transfer effects it of course, as does the state of the tire itself (temperature being a big one).

Is it a crutch for a marathon runner to wear running shoes instead of going barefoot? I don't think so - it's a tool. Likewise for ABS. If you prefer going old school that's one thing, but to pretend it doesn't have a use is willful ignorance.

Tire temp, duh. Not exactly a mystery.

And please don't argue via example, that's just so high school and a bit sad.

No one's going old school if that school is shitty and gets in the way of more advanced skills. Up the ABS to a true motorsport, high pulse rate system and that'd be great. Ain't gonna happen in the Ultimate Boredom Machine. Would rather do without its lame-ass intervention than have it make my sucky driving any more sucky, which it does.

If you can drive without ABS and your lap times are slower, which I'd suspect is true of nearly everyone here, your driving skills need some work.

[boro92]

justpete actually has this right.
For track applications - if a person is engaging abs, then they overshot it - threshold of grip exceeded. ABS in that case is helping, but let's also recognize that it is a crutch. There are track specific ABS systems (read: more like track tuned), and just like DSC, the production ABS is not suitable for track use in a number of situations - things like ice mode actually make it less safe than not running ABS at all.

Examples of track tuned ABS modules can be seen in Grand Am racing (see: Boss 302s, where Ford Racing outfits the car with a new module and new algorithm for circuit racing). ABS lets a driver get away with many more things, and for 100% of HPDE guys out there, is what should be run....but for someone very serious about learning car control and racing, learning without this crutch is not something that should be overlooked. What's more, there's something to be said about how a brake system actually feels when you remove ABS, and do brake booster deletes. The level of feedback from those sorts of things can do wonders. Stock BMW hardware does so much fuckery with the brakes that it's all artificial - ABS or not. A lot of it has to be coded out before the car is worth much on the track (in the hands of a good driver).

[justpete]

Originally Posted by boro92

justpete actually has this right.
For track applications - if a person is engaging abs, then they overshot it - threshold of grip exceeded. ABS in that case is helping, but let's also recognize that it is a crutch. There are track specific ABS systems (read: more like track tuned), and just like DSC, the production ABS is not suitable for track use in a number of situations - things like ice mode actually make it less safe than not running ABS at all.

Examples of track tuned ABS modules can be seen in Grand Am racing (see: Boss 302s, where Ford Racing outfits the car with a new module and new algorithm for circuit racing). ABS lets a driver get away with many more things, and for 100% of HPDE guys out there, is what should be run....but for someone very serious about learning car control and racing, learning without this crutch is not something that should be overlooked. What's more, there's something to be said about how a brake system actually feels when you remove ABS, and do brake booster deletes. The level of feedback from those sorts of things can do wonders. Stock BMW hardware does so much fuckery with the brakes that it's all artificial - ABS or not. A lot of it has to be coded out before the car is worth much on the track (in the hands of a good driver).

Thank you, it's not a point easy to get across apparently, appreciate the added explanations. Agreed that those out for a weekend of hoonage should always run ABS.

Gotta say the difference without ABS/DSC was eye opening. The brakes actually felt like brakes for once instead of some mushy, wobbly set of parts. No apparent knockback from changing to fixed calipers and floating rotors undoubtedly helped as well.

But the brake pedal still has too much travel. Looking forward to the day when the whole shitty stock brake system can be thrown out and replaced with a pedal box and balance bar. At least the brake pedal travel will be cut significantly allowing for more precise heel-toe operation. And the brakes can then be modulated by pressure directly with negligible travel to help with muscle memory. Also will lose the distance to the brake/tire system feel making it more direct.

Gotta agree, BMW does a shitload of fuckery with the brakes and it does feel entirely disconnected from the road and artificial (good description right there...), so damnably annoying.