[bmwmsport]

Hey guys! Many of you have seen my comments in this section about my lack of bass. Ive been really busy lately but I've finally gotten around to looking more into my audio components. I have a 2010 E90 with base audio. The previous owner replaced the speakers with upgrades (not sure what kind, they don't look cheap) so it now has tweeters and everything. Apparently, before he sold it, he took out the underseat midbass drivers. Now, all the bass is coming through my 4" doors. They bottom out all the time and it sounds awful.

Now, to the proposed upgrade:

1) replace underseats with OEM Logic 7 or HK or HiFi speakers to take the load off the door speakers
2) add an Alpine PDR-F50 amp and install kit and have someone install it
3) recode Head Unit to HiFi

Eventual upgrade:
1) add dedicated trunk subwoofer (Alpine or JBL) and another amp (Alpine)

On to the questions:
1) Will the Logic7 underseats be plug and play with my base audio system?
2) Can someone point me to how to recode the head unit? I have seen and read threads on all of it but I haven't seen a step by step DIY and a list of what I'll need.
3) Once I complete the HiFi recode, will the amp work in tandem with the head unit? So should I do the recode first or have the amp installed first?
4) How does this proposed upgrade sound?

Really looking forward to getting some more bass.

I'm not an audio guru but I do like my music and I'm learning along the way so please bear with me

[deeLow]

Sub'd cause I want to upgrade my base as well to something along the lines of L7.

[ctuna]

The following link has the basic upgrade for a Base System

http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...1&d=1411521234

As the doors and the floors are wired in parallel you need a Technic Harness
or the equivalent to make all the speaker positions work.
Do not ignore the underseat positions they provide most of the midrange
and midbass . Jehnert Xe-200s are highly recommended for this location.
Or get a Jehnert 3 way set and move the fronts to the back.
Also the current hot setup is the Helix 82dsp see group buy thread.
Jl xd-600/6 is a pretty standard replacement if you are going with only and
amp .

Do not put much or any money into the rear speakers.

I think its better to have and amp that will run the under seats in stereo.

On a 2010 you will probably need Bimmertech to recode it if that's what you
want to do . They charge or were charging 130 for the recode and a 300 dollar
security deposit for the cable .
You can get buy without a recode with a dsp .

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1178108

[bmwmsport]

Originally Posted by ctuna

The following link has the basic upgrade for a Base System

http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...1&d=1411521234

As the doors and the floors are wired in parallel you need a Technic Harness
or the equivalent to make all the speaker positions work.
Do not ignore the underseat positions they provide most of the midrange
and midbass . Jehnert Xe-200s are highly recommended for this location.
Or get a Jehnert 3 way set and move the fronts to the back.
Also the current hot setup is the Helix 82dsp see group buy thread.
Jl xd-600/6 is a pretty standard replacement if you are going with only and
amp .

Do not put much or any money into the rear speakers.

I think its better to have and amp that will run the under seats in stereo.

On a 2010 you will probably need Bimmertech to recode it if that's what you
want to do . They charge or were charging 130 for the recode and a 300 dollar
security deposit for the cable .
You can get buy without a recode with a dsp .

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1178108

Cool! Looks good. I like his base upgrade. Mine has the doors and tweeters done so no need to worry about that.

Is the Earthquake SWS or Jehnert XE-200 really worth the extra cost over the L7 underseats? Seems like since I'm getting a dedicated trunk sub anyway it wouldn't be worth it.

Is the L7 underseat plug and play with my system?

Would I be better off in the long run trying to recode the HU or just go with a cleansweep dsp?

How do I get in touch with Technic to get the appropriate harness for my car?

Is the Helix 82dsp really worth $300 MORE than the Alpine amp I was going with? I saw the group buy a few months back. I think I missed out on it. Seems like it was $670 or something, whereas the amp I looked at was $400. I'm trying to stay within my budget.

Thank you

[ctuna]

Is the Earthquake SWS or Jehnert XE-200 really worth the extra cost over the L7 underseats? Seems like since I'm getting a dedicated trunk sub anyway it wouldn't be worth it.

The xe-200 if you are getting a subwoofer you need that one or
something more like it the the SWS is a subwoofer it doesn't handle mid
ranges well . Other alternates would be Gladen or the cheap option would
be MB Quart get the BMW Plug and play version of these.
Are you sure that you don't have the original speakers .
(underseats)
Do you at least have the enclosures because you will need those.

Is the L7 under seat plug and play with my system?
Yes with and amp but the other choices will be better.



Would I be better off in the long run trying to recode the HU or just go with a cleansweep dsp?
A purist would go for a recode but plenty of people don't .

Its easier to locate a cleansweep or use the dsp built in to the 82dsp than
to code a 2010 but it is possible.

How do I get in touch with Technic to get the appropriate harness for my car?

Send him a PM here.

Is the Helix 82dsp really worth $300 MORE than the Alpine amp I was going with? I saw the group buy a few months back. I think I missed out on it. Seems like it was $670 or something, whereas the amp I looked at was
$400. I'm trying to stay within my budget.

Well its and 8 channel amp with DSP on each channel so you
have ultimate control of whats going to the speakers but you have to
tune it. And you can run it active . Depends on how into you are and how much your budjet is. But you don't need a cleansweep if you have one and it does much more so subtracting out the cost of a cleasweep or a recode is one way of looking at it.

If you are not a bass head you don't need a sub or you should try doing this
with out a sub first you might find it is totally enough.

[bmwmsport]

Originally Posted by ctuna

Is the Earthquake SWS or Jehnert XE-200 really worth the extra cost over the L7 underseats? Seems like since I'm getting a dedicated trunk sub anyway it wouldn't be worth it.

The xe-200 if you are getting a subwoofer you need that one or
something more like it the the SWS is a subwoofer it doesn't handle mid
ranges well . Other alternates would be Gladen or the cheap option would
be MB Quart get the BMW Plug and play version of these.
Are you sure that you don't have the original speakers .
(underseats)
Do you at least have the enclosures because you will need those.

Is the L7 under seat plug and play with my system?
Yes with and amp but the other choices will be better.



Would I be better off in the long run trying to recode the HU or just go with a cleansweep dsp?
A purist would go for a recode but plenty of people don't .

Its easier to locate a cleansweep or use the dsp built in to the 82dsp than
to code a 2010 but it is possible.

How do I get in touch with Technic to get the appropriate harness for my car?

Send him a PM here.

Is the Helix 82dsp really worth $300 MORE than the Alpine amp I was going with? I saw the group buy a few months back. I think I missed out on it. Seems like it was $670 or something, whereas the amp I looked at was
$400. I'm trying to stay within my budget.

Well its and 8 channel amp with DSP on each channel so you
have ultimate control of whats going to the speakers but you have to
tune it. And you can run it active . Depends on how into you are and how much your budjet is. But you don't need a cleansweep if you have one and it does much more so subtracting out the cost of a cleasweep or a recode is one way of looking at it.

If you are not a bass head you don't need a sub or you should try doing this
with out a sub first you might find it is totally enough.

Cool, thanks for the response!

As I understand it from the Bimmertech PnP group buy, I HAVE to have the HiFi system, which mine doesn't.

What actually is a DSP? Seems like for me I'd be better off running down how to recode HU before shelling out for a separate DSP.

I'll look into the Earthquake SWS and the Jehnert underseats. Other than this forum, I've never heard either of these brands.

I'll look under my passenger seat when I find time to see what's actually under there to see whether or not I do have the casings left or what.

Admittedly the Alpine amp I was looking at is a 4 channel amp. The guy I talked to said I could wire door speakers and tweeters to two channels and the other two to underseats so I could control sub volume independently, which I like the idea of.

No clue how expensive the Earthquakes or Jehnert underseats are but I'll look. The L7 underseats are going for $200+ on eBay.

Again, thanks for the response. I know I'm new to this and I'm still learning what everything does and how it all interacts.

[ctuna]

Digital signal processor .
It allows fine detail equalization of frequency response on each channel
and the ability to apply a lot of fancy filter curves on each channel.
You can kind of think of it as having a graphic or parametric equalizer on
each channel.
It also has time delay by channel.
Although if you have good speakers you are most of the way there
on eq.
This allows you to manipulate the sound stage. (perceived sound source
location)
You have this in Home AV receivers .

As I understand it from the Bimmertech PnP group buy, I HAVE to have the HiFi system, which mine doesn't.

You can install one of these with a Technic Base system Harness but the
tune wouldn't be exactly right .

I'll look into the Earthquake SWS and the Jehnert underseats. Other than this forum, I've never heard either of these brands.

The mbquarts were 225 for a three way set.
Don't know how good they are.

http://www.vminnovations.com/Product...F4YxoCmE3w_wcB

I think the Jehnerts are in the 500 dollar range for just the under seats
but they are really good.

The brands that work and fit in these cars tend to be Euro brands that
you don't find the average stereo shop . Howver Jl Audio is a US Brand.

[bmwmsport]

The Earthquakes can be had for ~$250 for the speakers and harnesses off Amazon.

May go that route.

Still don't know what amp to go with. I can't imagine I'll ever need all the features the Bimmertech amp offers but I may.

What do you mean the tune may not be quite right? How will that affect music quality?

[Wongway]

There's tons of people with experience here about the Earthquakes being bad for their purposes here on this very forum.

I think the misconception most people have about their base audio system is that "I need subs" or "It's lacking bass"

A subwoofer should be the LAST thing someone should spend their money on.

A real subwoofer's intended musical reproduction range should only be somewhere along the lines of 80hz max, to near 20hz
That's a really really small window of sound reproduction.

Our underseat woofers were designed to reproduce mid-bass frequencies. The stuff you hear the most in music, which will be anywhere from below 200hz, all the way down to near 40hz or so. That's a MUCH bigger frequency spread of music.

The greatest problem everyone has with Earthquakes is that they were designed to be "sub"woofers. So their intended frequency spread is that lower portion of music in the 80hz and down range.

When the majority of component speaker upgrades are designed to cover the spread of frequencies from 20,000hz down to around 250hz, using Earthquakes in place of a true mid-bass woofer leaves a huge gap in sound from 250hz or so, all the way down to about 80hz. You can even search this forum for people's experiences trying to force Earthquakes to play above 120hz to try and cover this gap, and they all universally say they sound terrible.

Just this past year alone on this forum, I can recall reading at least 2 or 3 people thinking they'll cheap out and get Earthquakes and end up having to spend even more money getting an appropriate speaker so basically now spending MORE money rather than less.

There's times I really don't understand why people think they're a special snowflake and their particular cars don't apply the laws of physics like everyone else's E90's. Yes, these forums are for exchange of information. Yes, these forums are for garnering feedback. What good is that feedback if people don't search, listen and use that feedback?

Do it right the first time. It's for your benefit, and for your wallet's.
For our cars, most of the speaker upgrades that work well fall 'generally' into the following categories:
Average Component set's (This includes both Tweeters and Midrange speakers together) sound reproduction should be approximately around 20,000hz ----> +/-250hz(ish)
Average Woofer/Mid-bass (our under seats) sound reproduction should be approximately +/-250hz(ish) ----> +/-45hz(ish)
Average Subwoofer sound reproduction should be approximately +/-45hz(ish)--->20hz(ish)

Yeah, there's other speakers out there that don't directly into those general ideas, but they're usually much more expensive and not as good of a bang for your buck. (or they simply won't fit)

I'm willing to bet that if most folk simply upgrade the components and underseats to the appropriate speakers, at least 50% of those folk will simply stop there without bothering to go with a real subwoofer because it will be "enough" for them. Maybe even as high as 75%.

[ctuna]

I second the above.
A subwoofer is often a fashion or attitude statement.
If you go with and amp only the Jl audio 600/ 6 has been the standard choice.
Because it sounds good .
It has differential balanced inputs that interfaces directly with the radio or idrive.
It fits in the factory location.
It has the right number of channels to power all speaker location.
It has decent crossover control.

"Just this past year alone on this forum, I can recall reading at least 2 or 3 people thinking they'll cheap out and get Earthquakes and end up having to spend even more money getting an appropriate speaker so basically now spending MORE money rather than less."
Yes I read that to.

Jehnert xe-200 better low and mid range than I have had
in a any system car or home.

The settings in a dsp are called the the tune.
The tune or settings need to be set up for your car
if you don't understand what a dsp is and are not willing
to learn to tune it either you take it to somebody to tune it
or you stay away from it.

Harnesses that are not BMW specific may not meet your needs. The Technic harnesses are BMW specific for the
system you have .

[bmwmsport]

Ok cool! Thanks for the response.

I think I may just get the L7 underseats since they're plug and play and will really help, plus I've already got upgraded doors and tweeters.

As far as amp goes, Ive preferred Alpine over JL in the past but if a lot of guys are getting JL and are happy with it I'll consider it. The Alpine amp I named in the first listing is more along the lines of the JL XD4004, so I'm assuming the 600/6 is more powerful and more channels. Would that power a trunk sub as well as the other speakers or would I still need a dual amp setup (one for doors, tweeters, underseats an one solely for 10" corner sub)?

I'd love to learn to tune a DSP. Think that would be really cool to know how to do. Would take a lot of getting used to and figuring out but that would eliminate the need to spend the money on recoding the head unit.

Since I'm getting a dedicated trunk subwoofer, I'll do as suggested and ensure I'm covering all sound ranges. Right now, all I have are highs dipping into high mids, no midbass to bass range at all.

I'd rather spend a little more upfront, but I don't even know where to get Jehnerts. Plus, I'm not trying to go all out, just a decent upgrade. I think the L7's for a really good price and they'll do a bunch more than I've got going for me now.

Thank you all and keep the comments coming!

[ctuna]

If you get a trunk sub they pretty much require big power .
So you should look at dedicated sub amps for the sub which means
two amps.
There are some amps that have a dedicated sub channel now, including
the xd series.
vist the jl website for details.

[bmwmsport]

JL audio looks like they have two in the XD600/6 class:
http://www.jlaudio.com/xd600-6-car-a...plifiers-98262
http://www.jlaudio.com/xd600-6v2-car...plifiers-98605

One is a V2 model with what looks like a few different features.

Still the amp is 600W total. Would that be enough for a trunk sub or would this amp only run the other speakers inside?

The Alpine amp I was looking at originally still is quite appealing:
http://www.alpine-usa.com/product/view/pdr-f50
Only a 4 channel amp but if I'm buying two wouldn't 4 channels be plenty for the inside speakers?

Let me know what y'all think.

Thank you.

[ctuna]

No a trunk sub needs a separate amp or more power as indicated in the
the last response. Like about 300 watts on a single channel.
The xd 700/5 has a sub channel but it only has 4 channels
to run the rest of the system.

[bmwmsport]

Ok well I'll just plan on having a separate dedicated amp for the sub.

For now, I'll look at getting the JL 600/6 and the L7 underseats unless something else comes around so I can cover all ranges of sound.

Won't 4 channels be enough to run the rest of the system?

[ctuna]

Depends on if you want to power the rears.
Because you want 4 channels for the front
two for doors and two for floors.
the 600/6 is chosen because if covers all stock locations
in a Hi Fi or Base system.

[Wongway]

I wouldn't bother covering the rears. Properly done and amped nicely, you'll never hear them anyways. If the concert is playing behind you, you're facing the wrong way.

That said, while I'm not sure how the 600/6 is configured, nor how flexible it is, but there's a lot of ways I can think of configuring a 6 channel amp.

1x each of the two tweeters (2 channels used)
1x each of the two mids (2 channels used)
1x each of the underseats (2 channels used)

1x each side of component sets (2 channels used for 4 speakers)
1x each of the two underseats (2 channels used)
leaving 2 channels you can bridge for a subwoofer

etc and so on.


edit:
Going to guess however, it's not near as flexible as the PP82DSP though, so the first configuration I had in mind might not be so great without proper crossovers/dsp.

[ctuna]

I would consider minimum watts for a subwoofer to be 300 most
of the guys on here that do them have way more than that.
Two bridged channels from the standard xd would be 200 watts with
a bridging, and dependent on speaker impedence. If you wanted
to do everthing in one amp the xd 700/5 has 300 watt sub channel
though you are stuck with it if you decided its not enough.
If you want to do a sub better start talking to the guys that love
them here.

[bmwmsport]

Ok cool thanks guys! I'll probably just plan on doing two amps. One would be nice but I dont want to spend money on a sub only to cheap out on the amp and not feed the sub enough power.

I think the PP82dsp looks cool, but I don't have HiFi so it'd be off a bit to make it work with my car.

From what y'all have said, the JL XD600/6 looks like the best choice for me, plus some Technic harnesses to get it all together, with Logic7 underseats to give me my midbass range back.

Later on, I'll get the subwoofer guys to chime in to see what would be the best sub and amp for my setup.

What order do I need to do this in?
Does the reporgramming need to come first? or the amp? or the underseats?

Thank you all for the advice.

[bmwmsport]

Well I finally had time to get around to ordering underseats, but before I did I wanted to make sure I didn't have anything there. Well, as it turns out, I have underseats!!! They're just unplugged (per the previous owner- I got in touch with him- he said he took it to an audio shop and they did the audio build, before he sold it he had them take it out and presumably they left the underseats unplugged)

I wanted to know if anyone has heard of Vibe audio since they're a UK brand and no one I know here has them. Check out the attached pics of them. They look really good. Specs are on the back of the speaker. It says they're liteAir 6's, however, I can't find them on Vibe's websites.

Anyway, heres my new plan:
HiFi harness
HiFi recode
JL XD600/6 install

That totals about $1100, which is good for my first phase of my audio build. I can put the underseats on a low pass so they only get low frequencies to pull the load off the doors.

Let me know what y'all think.

[OzCoE92]

Don't get the Vibe under seats. You will want at least an 8" driver instead of the standard base audio 6"/6.5" that is glued into the enclosure. If you can, look around the audio classifieds, there are usually some Jehnerts or some used hifi under seats for sale. As others have said, do it right the first time so you don't have to redo it again later. I don't know how you feel about it, but I researched for about a 6 month period before I started purchasing parts for my base audio build and spent a good bit more than that. Find a competent installer that knows BMWs and you will save yourself some headaches. Take your time and do it right, and good luck. Here's my list:
Hybrid Audio Legatia Carbon L4SE
Morel Mt-22 tweeters (2 sets); 1 set with Morel modified crossovers (mounted in tweeter sails)
Helix DSP (option to run active or passive)
Jehnert XE200 midwoofers
JL XD600/6
JL XD400/4
JL XD500/1
Custom corner enclosure with JL 12W6
Technic Hifi harness with RCAs; recode to Hifi

[kaigoss69]

The fact that the previous owner did not bother to take them out and had them disconnected should tell you everything you need to know!