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      09-20-2017, 09:36 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Sorry, but to the Canadian "small business people" whining about losing their ability to incorporate for no other purpose than not paying their fair share of taxes on earnings (you doctors, lawyers, etc) ... tough shit. About time we had a government actually try and restore tax fairness.

I have no issue (and no one does) with businesses being able to write off costs (including capital and investment costs), but when you can hide your personal income in your business through tax rules ... I have an issue with that. I am fully in favour of you paying your fair share so that you're finally on the same footing I am.

These proposed changes are about tax fairness and those $600/hr lawyers who have incorporated their nice little LLCs to avoid paying their fair taxes have done a nice job of convincing small businesses, contractors, etc that the government is out to get them. The truth is that small business is not targeted (at all) ... incorporation is. Using incorporation as a tax dodge is the government's target and I am completely on board.

Andrew Coyne nailed it: http://nationalpost.com/opinion/andr...e-taxed-fairly and http://nationalpost.com/news/andrew-...ing-a-pounding

That's exactly what it's about - no here comes the "woe is me" where they complain about not having enough money saved up if their business fails.

Instead of arguing how you deserve more tax loopholes, why not argue for more robust protections for business owners as well as their employees to take advantage of in such an unfortunate scenario?

Of course it's not about that, it's about the OP and his kin throwing a pity party because they can't hide their earning in various sources that most earners can't take advantage of - and we are supposed to feel sorry for them.

Once more - you don't need an incentive to make more money.
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      09-20-2017, 09:38 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RABAUKE View Post
The tax system in Canada is taking us all close to the breaking point and I have to think a revolt will happen at some point. By the time my wife and I pay our federal and provincial income, property tax, HST on every single purchase, pay our user fees (tax), healthcare supplement (tax) and all of the hidden fees, one level of government or another takes more than 50% of our gross income. There are more taxes and revenue tools coming as government racks up debt and deficit......didn't some one promise recently that the budget would balance itself? I have to wonder at what point with government in Canada be satisfied with the amount they take from us, 60%, 70% or more? I've had enough frankly. I don't mind paying a fair share for community safety, health care, education etc but to see the waste and mismanagement is sickening.

Just my two cents, and that's about all I have to spare right now.
So would you just rather make 50% less? I'm not sure I understand the complaint here.
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      09-20-2017, 10:05 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Sorry, but to the Canadian "small business people" whining about losing their ability to incorporate for no other purpose than not paying their fair share of taxes on earnings (you doctors, lawyers, etc) ... tough shit. About time we had a government actually try and restore tax fairness.

I have no issue (and no one does) with businesses being able to write off costs (including capital and investment costs), but when you can hide your personal income in your business through tax rules ... I have an issue with that. I am fully in favour of you paying your fair share so that you're finally on the same footing I am.

These proposed changes are about tax fairness and those $600/hr lawyers who have incorporated their nice little LLCs to avoid paying their fair taxes have done a nice job of convincing small businesses, contractors, etc that the government is out to get them. The truth is that small business is not targeted (at all) ... incorporation is. Using incorporation as a tax dodge is the government's target and I am completely on board.

Andrew Coyne nailed it: http://nationalpost.com/opinion/andr...e-taxed-fairly and http://nationalpost.com/news/andrew-...ing-a-pounding
You really need to start educating yourself about what is going on here before you sound off. No one is losing the ability to incorporate. It is only that the government is proposing to change well established tax laws to create a punitive environment where it makes no sense to start a small business. Why? Well, my theory is that they want everyone to be an employee instead, because those large corps don't qualify for small business deduction, and the gov't gets their source deductions faster, which translates into more money they can spend on frivolous things. Because we are to work for the government, not the other way around of course.

Incorporated small business owners can't hide their personal income in their corp. Which again shows how uninformed you truly are. I wish for once you would actually do some research instead of just believing whatever comes out of a politician's mouth. Any income earned by the corp is the corp's, not the owners. If the owner wants to buy a boat say, he can't go and use the corp's money to buy a boat. He has to take it out of the corp first - and as soon as he does, he is taxed on it. Personally. If an employee made $100K, he'd be taxed on that $100K personally. If a corp makes $100K, they'd be taxed less than what the employee would be, but if the owner decides they need that $100K for a boat, then as soon as they take it out, they are paying the exact same amount of tax on that $100K as the employee did. It is equal and fair. The only difference is the tax is deferred in the corp till the owner takes it. And that's fair, because it is not the owner's money till he takes it. And they don't want to take it right away because the business may need it in the next month or two to meet payroll, fund inventory, operate while A/R is being collected, etc.

Oh - so you're in favour of me paying my fair share so I'm on the same footing as you then? Well, I do, as I explained above already - we are taxed the same on whatever we earn personally. But ok, so you perceive an advantage to deferral that you want to take. So by that nature, you'd be completely fine with the government stripping away your rights to severance pay, sick pay, vacation pay, overtime, etc. Right?? Because I don't have that - and to be on an equal footing, you shouldn't either right? Where is your outrage that you have all these benefits that I don't. I don't see you waving any flags asking the government to take this away from you, or give it to me. WHY NOT?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
That's exactly what it's about - no here comes the "woe is me" where they complain about not having enough money saved up if their business fails.

Instead of arguing how you deserve more tax loopholes, why not argue for more robust protections for business owners as well as their employees to take advantage of in such an unfortunate scenario?

Of course it's not about that, it's about the OP and his kin throwing a pity party because they can't hide their earning in various sources that most earners can't take advantage of - and we are supposed to feel sorry for them.

Once more - you don't need an incentive to make more money.
Again, I don't even know why I bother with you, since you're obviously ignorant, but there is no hiding of personal earnings in a corp. A corp is a separate legal entity, taxed as such, and the money in there is not the owner's to do with as they want. Not until they take it personally and pay the associated personal taxes on it.

You say most earners can't take advantage of this? Why - what's stopping them or you??

You can incorporate tomorrow. Form your own business, drive sales, collect money - there's the same risk to that as being an employee in your mind right? So do it, and take advantage of all these supposed rewards. No one is stopping you.
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      09-20-2017, 11:09 AM   #48
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RABAUKE TomHudson ... there's a difference between tax rates and tax fairness. Presumably, more tax fairness leads to lower tax rates. Governments historically layer preferential tax treatment upon preferential tax treatment for special interest groups ultimately creating a system of unfair tax treatment. This is not solely a federal or Canadian phenomenon but pretty universal. The only government I can recall seeing that actually addressed tax fairness in any meaningful way was the Chretien/Martin Liberal government, but they did not have the wherewithal to take on this issue. A lot of the tax fairness improvements in their tenure were undone by the Harper CPC who brought in reams of special interest tax breaks for no other purpose than targeting a few thousand wedge votes in key ridings. The Trudeau/Morneau Liberals have only addressed a few of these (TFSA limits, income splitting) and should be taking on the rest (and hopefully will).

Tax rates are a different issue and there is a regional/local flavour to it. I can't comment really on Ontario, but in BC nothing is more outrageous than our municipal governments and their lack of fiscal sensibilities. Our provincial government, on the other hand, is getting away with murder by paying 30% less than market rates on labour which makes me wonder if we're actually paying too much money because we have crappy employees who are fundamentally inefficient and if provincial public sector wages were at the bottom end of market would we be better off? Then again, our provincial tax burden is relatively low (and not really changing under the new NDP government). We all think we pay too high taxes, but my wife and I are well into >$200,000 income earning and probably should be taxed higher than most because we make more than most ... as long as it's fair and it isn't. I am totally behind the federal government for addressing tax fairness and want all levels of government doing so.

Joekerr I don't "need to educate myself". I am well read on the subject, well versed in the relative merits, and am completely in favour of what is proposed. @Axiom may not be Canadian, but he gets it (http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=45). I get that as a business owner you have accepted certain risks (you point out severance, etc). My point is that it is not the tax system's responsibility to make it up to you. At the end of the day, I want you paying the same tax on the same dollar. I am all for programs and incentives to encourage entrepreneurship ... I object to the tax system being made over in your favour to accomplish it. It is unfair, disproportionate, subject to unmanageable abuse, and simply the wrong tool for the job. What I hate more than that though is your need to assume that I must be uneducated on the subject because I disagree with you.
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      09-20-2017, 11:18 AM   #49
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Edit - See the above post.
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      09-20-2017, 12:01 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
So would you just rather make 50% less? I'm not sure I understand the complaint here.
It's about working your ass of during the year and only getting paid for 6 months of it. Then being told your not contributing your fair share by some of those who are not themselves economic contributors.


http://business.financialpost.com/op...t-be-surprised
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      09-20-2017, 01:19 PM   #51
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Because its 2017!
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      09-20-2017, 01:22 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Mr Carrots View Post
Because its 2017!
Equality of outcome for everyone!
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      09-20-2017, 01:26 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHudson View Post
The Liberal government just wants more taxes so they can cover the cheque they wrote for Khadr.

Gotta love the continuing argument to collect more taxes is :
A) fair
B) save the environment
C) encourage healthy choices by taxing sugar!
D) too many rich people
? On and on

Anybody who thinks the government should collect more taxes, has a screw loose.
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      09-20-2017, 01:34 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHudson View Post
You could justify it anyway you want, when the government steps in to get them selves more money, the only interest, is self interest.

Once again, Canadians feel that someone else has more entitlement, so we have to drag them down. These are the same clowns that are jealous of both teachers, unions, Government employees and can't make their own way, so we have to drag them down to make it "fair".

It's not just the liberals, the conservatives had their trick by reducing employment insurance benefits to put more money in their defence spending, and justified that as well.

It's a PR nightmare (natl post) because the average Canadian sees another way of grabbing more money for themselves. More money for the senators and their entitlements, more money for PM's vacations...

If you want to close loopholes, close the one that lets that fat ass Duffy claim PEI as a primary residence, when he doesn't even live there. And now he's going to sue and have the Canadian public to pay for that nonsense?

Repeat; anybody who believes the government collecting more taxes is better for the people, is naive.
Great points
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      09-20-2017, 01:44 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RABAUKE View Post
The tax system in Canada is taking us all close to the breaking point and I have to think a revolt will happen at some point. By the time my wife and I pay our federal and provincial income, property tax, HST on every single purchase, pay our user fees (tax), healthcare supplement (tax) and all of the hidden fees, one level of government or another takes more than 50% of our gross income. There are more taxes and revenue tools coming as government racks up debt and deficit......didn't some one promise recently that the budget would balance itself? I have to wonder at what point with government in Canada be satisfied with the amount they take from us, 60%, 70% or more? I've had enough frankly. I don't mind paying a fair share for community safety, health care, education etc but to see the waste and mismanagement is sickening.

Just my two cents, and that's about all I have to spare right now.
As someone who came to Canada with nothing and had to start from the bottom, watching this great country be ripped apart makes me genuinely sad.

As they say: if you're 20 and you're not a Liberal, you don't have a heart but if you're 30 and you're not a Conservative, you don't have a brain.
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      09-20-2017, 01:46 PM   #56
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[quote=TheAxiom;22211975]No, it's literally not liquid - which is why I KNOW you have literally NO IDEA what you're talking about.

http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answ...uid-assets.asp



Holy fuck!



Good.

Yes it is.
[quote=Joekerr;22211946]
Its the corporation's money. So if the shareholder wants to use it to buy something (ie. like a person who is earning wages) then they have to withdraw it from the corporation, at which point, they are TAXED again on this withdrawal personally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
They are taxed on the profit - and you didn't say anything about owning a publicly traded corporation.


What does this have to do with YOUR business?
He's a tax dodger, you can't convert the greedy!
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      09-20-2017, 01:47 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
So would you just rather make 50% less? I'm not sure I understand the complaint here.
I'm not sure I could be much clearer.
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      09-20-2017, 01:57 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xander_g View Post
As someone who came to Canada with nothing and had to start from the bottom, watching this great country be ripped apart makes me genuinely sad.

As they say: if you're 20 and you're not a Liberal, you don't have a heart but if you're 30 and you're not a Conservative, you don't have a brain.
I know it as: "if you're a Socialist in your twenties you have a heart, and if you're still a socialist in your forties you're an idiot".

On 'tax fairness' from the Financial Post today:


http://business.financialpost.com/op...t-not-fairness
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      09-20-2017, 02:28 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post

Joekerr I don't "need to educate myself". I am well read on the subject, well versed in the relative merits, and am completely in favour of what is proposed. @Axiom may not be Canadian, but he gets it (http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=45). I get that as a business owner you have accepted certain risks (you point out severance, etc). My point is that it is not the tax system's responsibility to make it up to you. At the end of the day, I want you paying the same tax on the same dollar. I am all for programs and incentives to encourage entrepreneurship ... I object to the tax system being made over in your favour to accomplish it. It is unfair, disproportionate, subject to unmanageable abuse, and simply the wrong tool for the job. What I hate more than that though is your need to assume that I must be uneducated on the subject because I disagree with you.
I don't think you are uneducated because you disagree with me. I know you are uneducated from your postings on the matter.

You have stated that this was a restriction on the ability to incorporate. It isn't. Clearly, you don't understand the main issue then.

You then said owners are hiding personal income in a corporation. They aren't. I've explained that already. Any money the corporation makes is not the owner's until they draw it. At which point, they pay the same amount of tax as the person who earned the same amount as an employee.

You then suggested these changes would put business owners on an equal footing with employees. They won't. Again, as I've already outlined - ignoring the risk aspect and possibly losing the house, there are a lot of benefits employees are entitled to that business owners aren't.

So for all of the above reasons, I KNOW you don't know what you are talking about. That's why I called you uneducated.

And again, I feel like I'm beating you on the head with this, but you keep bringing it up - the business owner IS paying the same amount of tax on funds he / she withdraws from the business as a completely different employee who earns the same wage as the business owner draws.
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      09-20-2017, 03:08 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
I don't think you are uneducated because you disagree with me. I know you are uneducated from your postings on the matter.

You have stated that this was a restriction on the ability to incorporate. It isn't. Clearly, you don't understand the main issue then.

You then said owners are hiding personal income in a corporation. They aren't. I've explained that already. Any money the corporation makes is not the owner's until they draw it. At which point, they pay the same amount of tax as the person who earned the same amount as an employee.

You then suggested these changes would put business owners on an equal footing with employees. They won't. Again, as I've already outlined - ignoring the risk aspect and possibly losing the house, there are a lot of benefits employees are entitled to that business owners aren't.

So for all of the above reasons, I KNOW you don't know what you are talking about. That's why I called you uneducated.

And again, I feel like I'm beating you on the head with this, but you keep bringing it up - the business owner IS paying the same amount of tax on funds he / she withdraws from the business as a completely different employee who earns the same wage as the business owner draws.
Seriously, you really need to learn to read my posts better. I cited one example of part of the tax fairness issue: professionals sub-incorporating. They form partnerships that are essentially corporations and then personal corporations to tax avoid on the distributions from the partnerships. I am dead right on the tax avoidance scheme and that it is part of the government's proposed tax changes to make that harder. I did not say that was the only thing the government was addressing, I used it as an example of why tax fairness is an issue. I picked it because it's illustrative. Simply because the proposed tax changes are broader and impact other taxation scenarios doesn't make me wrong or uninformed.

At the end of the day. I am not disputing that the tax you pay on the withdrawals from your business are different than those paid by an employee. It is all the tax avoidance that occurs before earnings distribution that is unfair.

I have a fundamental objection to the tax system being used to incentivize individual entrepreneurship. I couldn't be clearer on that. That is an issue of tax fairness. That means I object to the tax advantages at play and I support the government in making changes. That does not make me uneducated because I refuse to eat the pablum that the government is targeting you because they want to make the tax system fairer. You call me uneducated because you choose my words selectively, but that doesn't make it so.

it is very clear from your tone that overwhelming rationale for your objections are that you might have to pay more taxes. Sorry, but that doesn't ring up any sympathy with me.
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      09-20-2017, 03:09 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
People who don't own businesses will rarely understand.

When an employee is working for a company that fails, they just go get anther job. No sweat. Probably take a nice vacation while collecting unemployment.

The person who owned that business which failed likely had their life savings invested into that business, if not more. If my business fails, i don't have enough cash to pay off the debt incurred to build it up to what is currently is.

That's the roll of the dice all small business owners take. Invest a large sum of money and time into a company which needs (due to constant operating expenses) a good 10 to 15 years of being profitable in order to recoup that investment.

There are VERY few companies which make the owner wealthy within 10 years. Hell, there are few companies which EVER make the owner wealthy. More well off, create a safety net after 15 years, achieve a retirement strategy, sure. But rarely a level of true wealth.

This doesn't even touch on how small business create the lions share of jobs.
It's frustrating but I can understand some of the support. I find the general public (my family and friends as well) seem to have this vision that a "corporation" is some evil entity and that all business owners are here to just take advantage of the system. Yes, some people do. But so do tons of employees in unions... Hell, if you took a % of business owners that are playing the system and compared it to a % of unionized employees that are gaming their employer I'm pretty confident that it's not the business owners costing people money...

But, unfortunately, we business owners will be the ones that get egg on our face every time some rich asshole decides to be a prick. The local laundromat, cafe, auto repair shop, clothing store or pub unfortunately all get thrown into the same barrel - and yes, most of those entities will be evil corporations as well...



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
So what's your point?
Fuck me, you are either a great troll or...

Employees, employers, taxes: I won't even on touch on this. Your comparison makes no sense at all. In other words, an employee and employer are the same and the level of work required is equal? I'm lost.

How did you come to this conclusion about housing and risking a house for a raise? If I want more capital to run my business I literally have to sign my house over to the bank as collateral. If an employee wants a raise because they're doing great work and excelling above expectation - the employer just pays them... The employer has the risk here, not the employee.

4 of my employees have corporate credit cards. It's a great tool to manage expenses and a benefit of working for a decent human who gives a fuck (that would be me). They have 0 liability on these cards, I cary it all.

So no employee should ever make mistakes? No one should ever make mistakes? It's a management issue? You missed the point. Management issue or not, if an employee makes an error that costs the company money, it's directly coming out of ownership's pocket. The employee has zero legal responsibility. If it's a continued issue then people get removed, fired, transplanted etc. But at the end of the day, who's the one holding the check book? The owner.

Your arguments make no sense and really just make me think you are one bitter man. Not sure who pissed in your Cheerios but you should probably look for something to brighten your day
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      09-20-2017, 03:15 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Wait - I thought Canada had government-sponsored, single payer healthcare? Is this a healthcare tax???

Your situation is ridiculous, as is government exploitation of all small businesses in the US, and sounds like Canada as well. I think the US Corporate Tax rate, however, is something like 31% - not the 15-25% you mentioned?
We have a single payer system for all essential health services. If you need it, you get it. But, chiropractor, drugs (outside of ER visits), dentist etc. are all out of pocket. It isn't perfect, but at least an ambulance ride won't bankrupt me

Corp rate is ~30%. But, we get a "small business" rate for net profits between all operating entities and related entities at 13.5% in BC (just got raised another 1% due to our NDP party, liberal *110% left).

If you're generating more than $500k in profit the monies over and above that are taxed at the full rate. I'm ok with the set up. You used to be able to stack back end corps and stack $500k / company in profits to keep rates at 12.5% but that ended with the Federal Liberal party getting power. It sucks, but I don't disagree with it. I was never in a bracket to take advantage of those options so it had no affect on me.
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      09-20-2017, 03:24 PM   #63
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Nothing to see here. Faithfully implementing socialism as promised.
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      09-20-2017, 03:35 PM   #64
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To the Canadians that posted in this thread that own small businesses (or otherwise generally just care):

Thank you.

I'm a Chartered Accountant, specializing in corporate and personal tax, and so this issue is near and dear to my heart, and a great number of my clients may be affected by these actions of our government. That's why I get so riled up about it (affects me too of course).

While you'll also likely hear what comes down the pike on the news or through your own accountants, I'll try to keep this thread updated as well just to make sure you have that info. If not, please PM me or get my attention on here if you've heard something and are not sure what it may mean for you. For fellow enthusiasts, always happy to answer and advise to the extent I can.
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he's Canadian. By international law we all must worship him and all other products of the country.
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      09-20-2017, 04:22 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
To the Canadians that posted in this thread that own small businesses (or otherwise generally just care):

Thank you.
No need to thank us. It's our country, our home and place that we(at least I) care about.
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      09-20-2017, 04:36 PM   #66
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We have a single payer system for all essential health services. If you need it, you get it. But, chiropractor, drugs (outside of ER visits), dentist etc. are all out of pocket. It isn't perfect, but at least an ambulance ride won't bankrupt me

Corp rate is ~30%. But, we get a "small business" rate for net profits between all operating entities and related entities at 13.5% in BC (just got raised another 1% due to our NDP party, liberal *110% left).

If you're generating more than $500k in profit the monies over and above that are taxed at the full rate. I'm ok with the set up. You used to be able to stack back end corps and stack $500k / company in profits to keep rates at 12.5% but that ended with the Federal Liberal party getting power. It sucks, but I don't disagree with it. I was never in a bracket to take advantage of those options so it had no affect on me.
Jeez - $250/mo is a lot of money, just for that insurance. In speaking with my Canadian friends, I understand many of them buy private health insurance to get better access to healthcare resources, and better-than-government coverage. Do you have that?
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