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      07-23-2013, 01:31 AM   #133
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      07-23-2013, 06:40 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
Is there anywhere in the civilized world where deadly force in self defense isn't permissible? Does that country train all their citizens in non-lethal threat neutralization? Are you expected to just die if you can't safely subdue your attacker?
Speculating again, I think the US is at the forefront of individual rights in the purest legal/constitutional sense.. where the individual right to defend his own life is given highest important, whereas in a socialist system there is greater wieght given to the other (offenders) right

Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
I don't know about taking down 4 assailants, probably not, but this is rather an extreme case. Outside deployment I've never been in any situation that required a firearm. I'm wondering if carrying a gun will in fact escalate a situation rather than diffuse it.
I am reading Bruce Lee's Fighting Method.. never felt the need to have any techinque before
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Originally Posted by Templar View Post
It's a shame we live in a world where a law abiding citizen like you can't go to eat ice cream at a place at 11 PM or so anymore because of criminals and such that like to cause a commotion.
I went to get coffee in the middle of day in urban HK, one guy on a motorcycle is making a scene saying I boxed him from his parking (he could exit via the but he didn't want to), a guy gives me the stare down entering the coffee shop (because I am standing in the doorway), and a large white guy moves from his spot outside - I don't know if he wants to challenge physical dominance, or he thinks I am a dick because I am boxing in the motorcycle guy (I am not, he is being stubborn insisting I move for him)
who says you need to look for trouble - it's always looking for you
or there is something really wrong with the way I act.. or theyre are a lot of angry, jealous, troublemakers hanging around in coffee shops
a man's got to defend his happiness - haters!

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Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
That's a sad video.

I think most countries allow deadly force if your life is in danger. It's a basic human right, really. In the United States, as in other countries, you may have to go to court to demonstrate that your life was in danger. Then depending on the outcome, you'd be punished or not.

But if you can justify that your life was in danger, I don't know of any "free" countries that would punish you for defending yourself.
In the US you are granted more 'liberty' to defend yourself, whereas in other places with a different world-view you have rely more on others, or the state ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
Some good points for sure.

I think if you carry concealed you need tons of training to utilize that firearm in extreme situations, otherwise that gun will be useless if it doesn't scare off any potential threat by sight alone. Having some safety training and some hours of target shooting won't mean much if the adrenaline is surging through you and you have to shoot a moving target.

Since you brought up some terrible situations I can guarantee you that carrying a gun alone won't help you.
This is true. I got in a push-shove in an elevator and I couldn't operate a touch screen atm properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Looking back at the posts, it looks like the thread somehow morphed at this point into a conversation about "stand your ground". Some clarity might be warranted: "Stand your ground" only means that one is not required to retreat or run to claim self-defense as a justification for a homicide crime. All of the requirements for self-defense still apply (see my older post above, but generally it's a reasonable belief that the degree of force you applied is necessary). Hence, "Stand your ground" isn't a license to play "tough guy" (i.e. if someone pushes me from my space, I can then shoot that person). It only means I'm not legally required to retreat (also [EDIT: *although] you may want to for survivability and other cost/benefit factors).
At this point is cost-benefit of satisfying your anger vs. the chance the guy is a maniac.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
Also good to note that US isn't alone in this law.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...ed_states.html
Good article. Hong Kong has British-like laws being a former colony.. now I know where my bias comes from. What about Canada, is it more Commonwealth or more US in this regard?
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      07-23-2013, 11:51 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by direwolfM3 View Post
"Why is that?" Because you earlier stated that you find yourself doing the exact same thing if you were in Zimmerman's position.

I take that to mean following around kids who you deem suspicious and initiating a confrontation (which granted is not breaking the law). Walking around in the rain with a hoody and saggy pants does not make someone suspicious. Heck, that could have been me 20years ago. From where I come from a kid walking around like he stepped out of a J. Crew catalogue would actually look more suspicious.

I think it's really sad that an innocent child was killed and all people here can say is that Zimmerman did not break any laws. Which technically MIGHT be true. But it does not mean that he did nothing wrong. Apparently, I'm not the only one who thinks this way.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/politi...ws-168833.html
Still, if your nephews don't start fights with people they have nothing to worry about. Anyway, you need to read and comprehend the entire statement before getting all pissed off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTonka
When i put myself in the positions of each person in the same alleged situation i find myself doing something different if i were in TM's position and doing the same thing if i were in GZ's position. Switching places with them after GZ was out of his truck i mean.

You're not the only one who thinks that. You're not the only one who thinks that on this forum. Even the people stating that GZ didn't break any laws think it's sad that TM is no longer with us.

The problem with people like you is that you fail to see that we live in a nation of laws. It seems you also fail to see that people need to be accountable for their actions. GZ could have been instigating the whole situation vocally and by following TM. This still doesn't give anyone the right to physically assault him. According to our laws, once that happens things change quite a bit.

No one here is happy that TM is gone or that GZ killed him. Some people however are happy to see that given the evidence and testimony, GZ was acquitted of the charges. Because there is a difference between doing something wrong and doing something illegal. Thats why there are laws. Because doing something wrong has a different definition for almost every person. Plenty of people think GZ was justified in following TM. Plenty of people think he wasn't. Either way, he was within his legal rights to do so.

Instead of insulting people you know nothing about, without even reading their entire post, how bout you go teach your nephews something about being accountable for their actions. That's the smartest thing you as a relative or any parent can do.
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      07-23-2013, 12:45 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
No one's arguing that GZ shot TM. But that alone does not convict for second-degree murder.

I'm sorry, perhaps I was presumptuous as well. Do you even understand the concept of "burden of proof"? I'll make this very simple: we live in a country where one is innocent until PROVEN guilty. Not the other way around. At this point, either you're completely ignorant about the basic principles of due process of law, or you're just trolling.
so we all are in agreement that GZ shot TM
and let's assume there wasn't enough proof for second degree murder
so he get's away scot free?
is that an acceptable outcome for you?
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      07-23-2013, 12:49 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
so we all are in agreement that GZ shot TM
and let's assume there wasn't enough proof for second degree murder
so he get's away scot free?
is that an acceptable outcome for you?
Not one single person has said that they do not believe that GZ shot TM. That is a concrete fact. The law states that you are within your legal rights, meaning without penalty, to shoot a person in self defense if you feel that your life is in danger. It doesn't matter if you think it's acceptable, it's the law.

There is no evidence that he exited his car intending to kill TM. There is a great deal of evidence pointing to him being attacked and having to defend himself with deadly force.
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      07-23-2013, 12:56 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Was he illegally carrying a gun?
He was violating the rules and regulations of his neighborhood watch
is that ok in your opinion?
just because something isn't illegal, it doesn't mean it's ok
and if he had an issue with that restriction, he should have not joined the neighborhood watch. simple as that
you can't pick and choose when it comes to rules.


Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Now you're just speculating again. Again, it's your burden to prove that GZ intentionally sought out TM to murder him.



You're STILL speculating. How is it "fact"? Were you there? Did you see what happened? Do you have eyewitnesses? So quick to accuse, but without any proof ...
are you disputing the fact that this confrontation was started by GZ?
did TM follow GZ?
did TM call 911 about GZ?
or are you suggesting TM lured GZ into killing him?


Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
EDIT: Oh, and your "Had GZ not been around" is a completely specious argument. By this logic, you might as well blame TM's dad: Had TM's dad not taken TM to visit his fiancee and her son, TM would never have been in the neighborhood, and TM would still be alive. Ergo, by your argument, TM's dad should be guilty of a crime ... [Completely ridiculous]
TMs dad did not pull the trigger
so that's a pretty lame response from you
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      07-23-2013, 01:07 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
He was violating the rules and regulations of his neighborhood watch
is that ok in your opinion?
just because something isn't illegal, it doesn't mean it's ok
and if he had an issue with that restriction, he should have not joined the neighborhood watch. simple as that
you can't pick and choose when it comes to rules.
You seem to have a pretty easy time picking and choosing which rules you want applied in this case. It's perfectly legal to follow someone in every state in this nation yet you say that it was GZ following him that lead to TMs death, however TM brutally assaulting GZ is completely justified in your eyes yet completely illegal in every state. Who is picking and choosing again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
are you disputing the fact that this confrontation was started by GZ?
did TM follow GZ?
did TM call 911 about GZ?
or are you suggesting TM lured GZ into killing him?
I am most certainly disputing that, especially when you comtinue to call it a fact, when it is very much the opposite. A confrontation is when someone is confornted face to face. There is no evidence of any actual confrontation prior to TM assaulting GZ.
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      07-23-2013, 01:11 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R1robot View Post
This should answer any doubts on both ends of supporters.
was scott arrested almost 50 days after the incident took place?
if not, then this is not a relevant example
the reason the media all covered this is that GZ shot TM
and was set free, for almost 50 days
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      07-23-2013, 01:15 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
BUT - If you get into a spontaneous altercation on the street in the dark with no one else around and that person beats you to the ground and continues beating you, nothing about that seems consensual and there's no one around to help. At that point I would do anything within my power to prevent the attacker from possibly taking my life, including taking his.
I don't think what happened that night was in any way "spontaneous"
this wasn't something that just happened
when you look at the history of crime in that area
and the GZ had joined the neighborhood watch
and that he had a gun
these are all factors that lead to this
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      07-23-2013, 01:26 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
was scott arrested almost 50 days after the incident took place?
if not, then this is not a relevant example
the reason the media all covered this is that GZ shot TM
and was set free, for almost 50 days
I'm more concerned about the fact that they released him based on evidence showing it was self defense and then arrested him 50 days later due to political pressure to try the case; when everyone, including the D,A knew this was a no win case.
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      07-23-2013, 01:28 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
I don't think what happened that night was in any way "spontaneous"
this wasn't something that just happened
when you look at the history of crime in that area
and the GZ had joined the neighborhood watch
and that he had a gun
these are all factors that lead to this
Additional factors were that TM's mother sent him away from her home in Miami because she could not deal with his troublesome behavior.

if you're going to look at contributing factors, look at all of them.
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      07-23-2013, 01:29 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
was scott arrested almost 50 days after the incident took place?
if not, then this is not a relevant example
the reason the media all covered this is that GZ shot TM
and was set free, for almost 50 days
I think you completely missed the point here. They were both acquitted. Neither of them should have been arrested in the first place.
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      07-23-2013, 01:33 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
You seem to have a pretty easy time picking and choosing which rules you want applied in this case. It's perfectly legal to follow someone in every state in this nation yet you say that it was GZ following him that lead to TMs death, however TM brutally assaulting GZ is completely justified in your eyes yet completely illegal in every state. Who is picking and choosing again?
because you are ignoring a very important fact
yes it is legal to follow someone in this country
BUT when you join the neighborhood watch in that community, they also have rules and regulations, that you also HAVE to follow.
The president of the homeowners association said that residents in the neighborhood watch were told to "stay away" from suspicious people and call the police.
GZ did not follow those directions.
I am not picking and choosing, I am simply looking at one aspect that all of you are ignoring to look at, because you all feel he's innocent, and if you consider this, it really weakens your argument.


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Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
I am most certainly disputing that, especially when you comtinue to call it a fact, when it is very much the opposite. A confrontation is when someone is confornted face to face. There is no evidence of any actual confrontation prior to TM assaulting GZ.
and you don't think GZ was face to face with TM?
so did GZ shoot TM in the back?

fine if you don't like the word confrontation
but their "meeting" or "coming together" etc was not initiated by TM
TM was walking in the street, unaware of GZ even being in the area
GZ is the one that noticed TM and started the path of events that lead to this

and that to me at least, is why you can't really use the self defense card either.
if I am really trying to protect my ass, I don't go and follow someone who looks suspicious
ESPECIALLY when I have agreed to simply report any suspicious activity and to not take action, when I signed up for the neighborhood watch.
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      07-23-2013, 01:34 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
I don't think what happened that night was in any way "spontaneous"
this wasn't something that just happened
when you look at the history of crime in that area
and the GZ had joined the neighborhood watch
and that he had a gun
these are all factors that lead to this
You're reading my quote out of context. It is "spontaneous" relative to challenging someone to a fight in a bar and taking it outside.

Also "he had a gun" - If you "had a gun" I think you'd realize this means a lot less than you think it does.
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      07-23-2013, 01:35 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
I'm more concerned about the fact that they released him based on evidence showing it was self defense and then arrested him 50 days later due to political pressure to try the case; when everyone, including the D,A knew this was a no win case.
if there was "political pressure"
GZ would not have come out innocent no?
otherwise that's not really pressure
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      07-23-2013, 01:39 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
because you are ignoring a very important fact
yes it is legal to follow someone in this country
BUT when you join the neighborhood watch in that community, they also have rules and regulations, that you also HAVE to follow.
The president of the homeowners association said that residents in the neighborhood watch were told to "stay away" from suspicious people and call the police.
GZ did not follow those directions.
I am not picking and choosing, I am simply looking at one aspect that all of you are ignoring to look at, because you all feel he's innocent, and if you consider this, it really weakens your argument.




and you don't think GZ was face to face with TM?
so did GZ shoot TM in the back?

fine if you don't like the word confrontation
but their "meeting" or "coming together" etc was not initiated by TM
TM was walking in the street, unaware of GZ even being in the area
GZ is the one that noticed TM and started the path of events that lead to this

and that to me at least, is why you can't really use the self defense card either.
if I am really trying to protect my ass, I don't go and follow someone who looks suspicious
ESPECIALLY when I have agreed to simply report any suspicious activity and to not take action, when I signed up for the neighborhood watch.

Neighborhood watch guidelines are not law. 911 dispatcher advice is not law. Assault and self defense is law.

Whatever you have against Zimmerman before the incident happened, Im sorry to tell you is irrelevant. All if it became irrelevant when TM made the decision to assault Zimmerman. It was an unfortunate choice which cost him his life.
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      07-23-2013, 01:42 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
if there was "political pressure"
GZ would not have come out innocent no?
otherwise that's not really pressure
No because justice is blind and we try very hard not to convict people on feelings or emotion but on facts and evidence.

There absolutely was political pressure. Thats why he was in court. What there "wasn't" was any evidence. That's why he wasn't found guilty.
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      07-23-2013, 01:45 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
Additional factors were that TM's mother sent him away from her home in Miami because she could not deal with his troublesome behavior.

if you're going to look at contributing factors, look at all of them.
ok, i'll take your advice

GZ went to court twice for domestic violence
GZ was arrested and charged for "resisting officer with violence" and Battery of law enforcement officer"
GZ made at least 46 separate phone calls to the Sanford police department reporting suspicious activity involving black males.

GZs cousin said "I know George. And I know that he does not like black people, she told a Sanford police officer during a telephone call. He would start something. Hes a very confrontational person. Its in his blood."

that same cousin also said GZ molested her when they were children.

sounds like a real nice guy
i'm sure TM was asking for it
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      07-23-2013, 01:47 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
I think you completely missed the point here. They were both acquitted. Neither of them should have been arrested in the first place.
I didn't miss the point
the reason the GZ/TM affair got so much publicity, is that we all knew GZ shot TM
and yet he went home later that day, after questioning
and stayed home for 50 days
which is what started this whole "Race card" situation in the first place
had he been arrested that same night
it would probably not have gotten so much attention in the media
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      07-23-2013, 01:53 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
Neighborhood watch guidelines are not law. 911 dispatcher advice is not law. Assault and self defense is law.
so according to you I can ignore all rules and regulations
but simply choose to follow the law?
I've love to see how you bend over backwards to please your home owners association to follow their "rules"
or your working hour rules are your job
etc

and according to you, I can join any organization, and even though I agreed to follow their rules, I can simply throw all those rules out the window, just as soon as I am accepted ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
Whatever you have against Zimmerman before the incident happened, Im sorry to tell you is irrelevant. All if it became irrelevant when TM made the decision to assault Zimmerman. It was an unfortunate choice which cost him his life.

and now we have a killer out on the loose
oh goody!
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      07-23-2013, 01:54 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
No because justice is blind and we try very hard not to convict people on feelings or emotion but on facts and evidence.

There absolutely was political pressure. Thats why he was in court. What there "wasn't" was any evidence. That's why he wasn't found guilty.
in that case, what's the problem of using political pressure?
if the guys innocent "political pressure" doesn't change the outcome no?
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      07-23-2013, 02:13 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
Additional factors were that TM's mother sent him away from her home in Miami because she could not deal with his troublesome behavior.

if you're going to look at contributing factors, look at all of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
ok, i'll take your advice

GZ went to court twice for domestic violence
GZ was arrested and charged for "resisting officer with violence" and Battery of law enforcement officer"
GZ made at least 46 separate phone calls to the Sanford police department reporting suspicious activity involving black males.

GZs cousin said "I know George. And I know that he does not like black people, she told a Sanford police officer during a telephone call. He would start something. Hes a very confrontational person. Its in his blood."

that same cousin also said GZ molested her when they were children.

sounds like a real nice guy
i'm sure TM was asking for it
TM sounds like an angry, confrontation-seeking youth with a chip on his shoulder.
GZ sounds like an ignorant (hence, racist), trouble-seeking good-for-nothing.
In other words - they deserved each other.
But GZ had a one-up on TM, he was older and knew the law - so he (unconsciously) crafted this scenario where he could more or less entrap a rash youth to attack him so he could satisfy whatever his sick mind was looking for.
But ofcourse GZ is not off the hook at all.. can you imagine the reacts he would get from every (not even black) person who thinks he is a murderer? That is if he is brave enough to leave the house.. maybe he can find a good hispanic enclave where homies have his back.
(not meant to be racially inflamatory.. my point, if I have one, don't be a TM and don't be a GZ)
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