[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by Spoolin335

im sure a LSD doesnt cost too much nor weigh a lot.

Agreed. I think it's just marketing bull. Consider the fact that many other cars have true mechanical LSDs, like the 370z, for tens of thousands less (29k). It's ridiculous. Times have changed BMW, stop limiting LSDs to the M brand. Quit being stubborn and greedy.

[Targaflorio]

Great research to whoever exposed this and dug up the research - thanks.

I'm planning on doing a few BMW car club track days per year and interested to know your thoughts:

I'm considering leasing an 08 without the ediff (pre 03/08 production) that will be $2000 below invoice or building an 09 for performance center delivery with e diff (but without the $800 logic 7 stereo that is optional on the 09, but that's beside the point!!). It wil probably cost me $75-100 more per month apples to apples on the lease.

Is the E diff that noticeable as I have heard from BMC CCA folk that they have no problem with non e diff cars on the track - but that's before they knew about it...

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by ncoig

Diesel actually has higher CO2 emissions per gallon, and per BTU, than gasoline due to the higher energy content of diesel. These "facts" you present all depend on your perspective.

www.eia.doe.gov

-N

That is correct, but when there are catalysts and emissions control devices for lessening the emissions the level emitted is less.... what are you debating?

The 335d produces less emissions than the 335i, it is that simple and it is progress/technology.

[GeauxChadE90]

..because that would be a hell of a trip...

[ncoig]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

The 335d produces less emissions than the 335i, it is that simple and it is progress/technology.

Well, because you say so, it must be true.

-N

[ncoig]

Originally Posted by GeauxChadE90

..because that would be a hell of a trip...

?

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Originally Posted by Lassaxi

Speak for yourself, pal.

+1

and op, you have an e-diff.

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

Agreed. I think it's just marketing bull. Consider the fact that many other cars have true mechanical LSDs, like the 370z, for tens of thousands less (29k). It's ridiculous. Times have changed BMW, stop limiting LSDs to the M brand. Quit being stubborn and greedy.

The M's have LSD's? I thought those were electronically controlled also?

[Quickstrike]

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

The M's have LSD's? I thought those were electronically controlled also?

Incorrect.

BMW isn't the only one to do this. If Porsche offered a LSD on their Cayman's and Boxter's it would be too close to the 911's performance - if they offered the same engines as the 911, the mid-engine cars would have no problems surpassing it by a fair margin.

That is what sells a lot of higher end cars these days. Sure, a lot of times you can modify your engine so that it offers similar or even better performance than the next car up, but once you factor in all the prices (one of the large ones being an aftermarket LSD), it just makes more financial sense to buy the best model right from the start.

[scuuder3]

on an 07 328i with dsc on won't it use the brakes to control wheelspin? what about with dtc on? won't it let it spin a little but still basically act like an e diff? or does it just cut power and not use braking?

thanks for the info.

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by scuuder3

on an 07 328i with dsc on won't it use the brakes to control wheelspin? what about with dtc on? won't it let it spin a little but still basically act like an e diff? or does it just cut power and not use braking?

thanks for the info.

it will individually brake wheels that lose traction. it works, but not as efficiently as a true mechanical LSD.

[scuuder3]

even on the 07's?

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Originally Posted by scuuder3

even on the 07's?

Yes, that's DSC. DSC brakes wheels that are spinning to keep the car stable.

Please refer to: http://www.bimmerfile.com/2008/12/24...ility-control/

[scuuder3]

so if i understand correctly the only difference on the cars manufactured post 3/08 is that the braking of the spinning wheel remains active even with the dsc system disabled?

[ruff]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

From 3/08 and on all 3 Series in the US have the E-diff, which is about 90% as effective as a true LSD. The 1 series had this from launch. BMW will not include an LSD in any non-///M cars for weight and cost reasons. HOWEVER- that being said the 7 and Z4 will have the new rear diff that puts power to the outside wheels like in the X6; Not sure if it locks, or sends equal power in a rear drive application, though I will ask.

With snow tires and the E-diff the car will get through most snow.

To activate the e-Diff hold the DSC for 3 seconds and all nannies turn off but the e-diff remains active as it is NOT a nanny so there is no engine cutting or yaw controlled braking.

It will apply the brakes gradually to the spinning wheel to help balance power distribution. And yes it will allow you to leave equal "strips" when peeling out.

Map,

Appreciate your inside information but it is hard to stomach your BMW marketing propaganda. You know as well as I do that an e diff or whatever they want to call it, like efficient dynamics with the M3, ya right, is not "90%" as effective as a mechanical differential, period. The e diff is a marketing excuse to not offer a real LSD. The most glaring flaw of the 335 is its lack of a LSD, and the most distinguishing factor that enhances the performance advantage of the M3 over the 335. By the way, in my opinion, BMW makes the best mechanical LSD on the market. A 335 with all the boost horsepower and torque in the world, toting an e diff, is not going to negate the lack of an LSD. In fact, more power will only make matters worse.

[Quickstrike]

Originally Posted by scuuder3

so if i understand correctly the only difference on the cars manufactured post 3/08 is that the braking of the spinning wheel remains active even with the dsc system disabled?

The way I read it, the pre 3/08 cars will not individually brake the spinning wheel in any mode. The differential is open with no electrical aid.

Because of the lack of e-lsd, pre 3/08 cars will just leave one strip of rubber on the ground, and have a tougher time in inclement weather.

Whereas in the post 3/08 cars it is a new feature that is enabled no matter what.

[dxb335d]

DTC is nothing like a LSD.

[albeik]

Originally Posted by Quickstrike

Incorrect.

BMW isn't the only one to do this. If Porsche offered a LSD on their Cayman's and Boxter's it would be too close to the 911's performance - if they offered the same engines as the 911, the mid-engine cars would have no problems surpassing it by a fair margin.

That is what sells a lot of higher end cars these days. Sure, a lot of times you can modify your engine so that it offers similar or even better performance than the next car up, but once you factor in all the prices (one of the large ones being an aftermarket LSD), it just makes more financial sense to buy the best model right from the start.

Just a note that Porsche is going to have an option for a mechanical LSD for both the 2009 Cayman and Boxster!

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

DTC is nothing like a LSD.

That's debatable. They have a imitation LSD in the 335s now. It's part of the DTC system.

[Saintor]

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

That's debatable. They have a imitation LSD in the 335s now. It's part of the DTC system.

No debatable... this is a marketing gimmick. Nothing comparable to the real thing.

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by ruff

Map,

Appreciate your inside information but it is hard to stomach your BMW marketing propaganda. You know as well as I do that an e diff or whatever they want to call it, like efficient dynamics with the M3, ya right, is not "90%" as effective as as a mechanical differential, period. The e diff is a marketing excuse to not offer a real LSD. The most glaring flaw of the 335 is its lack of a LSD, and the most distinguishing factor that enhances the performance advantage of the M3 over the 335. By the way, in my opinion, BMW makes the best mechanical LSD on the market. A 335 with all the boost horsepower and torque in the world, toting an e diff, is not going to negate the lack of an LSD. In fact, more power will only make matters worse.

BMW does in fact make the best LSD available and it is frustrating to know that only the ///M models get it. The e-diff is meant for the masses not the people tracking the car every weekend. The BMW reason for not offering a true LSD: weight, cost, repairs, mpg and most people have no use for it. They are trying to keep things within reason and keep 90% of the population happy. I can't blame them.

You are correct when you say the more power will make the e-diff worse and that is why I laughed a bit when Terry stated he has the world's fasted 135i (sweet car!) and the e-diff is junk... no kidding it was not designed to handle all that power; it is not like he reprogrammed the DSC module to compensate for the added power.

Is it marketing propaganda? Sure in a way but in my opinion it is still better than cars built before this feature was initiated.

The reason they keep them only in the ///M cars is simple; they want those to be a step above everything. With software mods and tons of aftermarket bolt ons the ///M line needs to be something more that people still can't imitate. Having just picked up my ///M it is easy for me to see why they do it, it is so over engineered and designed it is not even funny, a simple chip, suspension and LSD does not turn a 335 into an ///M or anything even close but in todays age of 0-60 times once again being king BMW is protecting themselves and the Motor Sport divisions prowess as building some of the best all around sports cars there are. Anyone can make a car faster by hopping up boost and bolting on stuff but go take it to the track that is not just a straight line, drive it home and then drive it to work the next day and have it do everything extremely well; that is an ///M. And that is no knock on tuners, I have tuned a great deal of cars in my day and respect all the R&D and performance they achieve; it is just something different, something less refined about it all when you compare it to what ///M does.

There is some indication that BMW will be adding a new line of cars in 2010 starting with the 1 that will be more performance oriented; like a super sport line but without all the frills and big engines of the ///M badges. I am still working on details and of course they are going to be market dependent.

BMW also has plans to offer their own performance engine upgrades which will carry warranties so even within the brand they need to keep the ///M name one step up.

It is an interesting time for us enthusiasts and a lot of the decisions the brand makes are for marketing reasons. Note how the ROW gets the non ///M DCT in the E92/93 and we don't? That is b/c marketing decided to launch it in the new E89 Z4, we will see the DCT later in the year. The X1 will not be destined for the US at launch and may not come here at all. Marketing is crazy stuff and impacts a lot of what goes on behind closed doors in development.

The new iDrive system had to launch in the F01 7 even though it went to market first in the 1 and 3, there are more things coming down the line that are amusing, like the 4 cylinder twin turbo, the V3 and PAS. The 7 will get a new form of xDrive from the X6 and of course the new turbo powered ///M models. It is the end of high revving naturally aspirated motors so get them why you can, they are a dying breed.

As far as efficient dynamics with the ///M3 yeah that is a hard one to swallow but at the same time if you look at the performance gains versus the emissions levels, fuel consumption, and weight the engine is actually more efficient than the outgoing 6 cylinder... it is still in no way efficient and should NEVER be called that but it is a beautiful thing.

I am not trying to be an apologist for BMW but I do see where they are coming from, they are in a tough spot and need to keep things afloat.
Heck Porsche did not offer an LSD on the lower models until recently if I remember correctly. Does any other brand offer an LSD on a non-performance line car as standard; I really am not aware of it.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

BMW does in fact make the best LSD available and it is frustrating to know that only the ///M models get it. The e-diff is meant for the masses not the people tracking the car every weekend. The BMW reason for not offering a true LSD: weight, cost, repairs, mpg and most people have no use for it. They are trying to keep things within reason and keep 90% of the population happy. I can't blame them.

You are correct when you say the more power will make the e-diff worse and that is why I laughed a bit when Terry stated he has the world's fasted 135i (sweet car!) and the e-diff is junk... no kidding it was not designed to handle all that power; it is not like he reprogrammed the DSC module to compensate for the added power.

Is it marketing propaganda? Sure in a way but in my opinion it is still better than cars built before this feature was initiated.

The reason they keep them only in the ///M cars is simple; they want those to be a step above everything. With software mods and tons of aftermarket bolt ons the ///M line needs to be something more that people still can't imitate. Having just picked up my ///M it is easy for me to see why they do it, it is so over engineered and designed it is not even funny, a simple chip, suspension and LSD does not turn a 335 into an ///M or anything even close but in todays age of 0-60 times once again being king BMW is protecting themselves and the Motor Sport divisions prowess as building some of the best all around sports cars there are. Anyone can make a car faster by hopping up boost and bolting on stuff but go take it to the track that is not just a straight line, drive it home and then drive it to work the next day and have it do everything extremely well; that is an ///M. And that is no knock on tuners, I have tuned a great deal of cars in my day and respect all the R&D and performance they achieve; it is just something different, something less refined about it all when you compare it to what ///M does.

There is some indication that BMW will be adding a new line of cars in 2010 starting with the 1 that will be more performance oriented; like a super sport line but without all the frills and big engines of the ///M badges. I am still working on details and of course they are going to be market dependent.

BMW also has plans to offer their own performance engine upgrades which will carry warranties so even within the brand they need to keep the ///M name one step up.

It is an interesting time for us enthusiasts and a lot of the decisions the brand makes are for marketing reasons. Note how the ROW gets the non ///M DCT in the E92/93 and we don't? That is b/c marketing decided to launch it in the new E89 Z4, we will see the DCT later in the year. The X1 will not be destined for the US at launch and may not come here at all. Marketing is crazy stuff and impacts a lot of what goes on behind closed doors in development.

The new iDrive system had to launch in the F01 7 even though it went to market first in the 1 and 3, there are more things coming down the line that are amusing, like the 4 cylinder twin turbo, the V3 and PAS. The 7 will get a new form of xDrive from the X6 and of course the new turbo powered ///M models. It is the end of high revving naturally aspirated motors so get them why you can, they are a dying breed.

As far as efficient dynamics with the ///M3 yeah that is a hard one to swallow but at the same time if you look at the performance gains versus the emissions levels, fuel consumption, and weight the engine is actually more efficient than the outgoing 6 cylinder... it is still in no way efficient and should NEVER be called that but it is a beautiful thing.

I am not trying to be an apologist for BMW but I do see where they are coming from, they are in a tough spot and need to keep things afloat.
Heck Porsche did not offer an LSD on the lower models until recently if I remember correctly. Does any other brand offer an LSD on a non-performance line car as standard; I really am not aware of it.

Map,

I appreciate you taking the time and effort to respond with an informative and well thought out post. I spend the majority of my time on the M3 forum and noticed over there that you were purchasing an M3. Congratulations on your magic carpet ride. I am truly jealous. I have been debating b/w the M3 and the new Cayman S with DFI and finally a limited slip differential option. Though Porsche continues to price gauge by forcing one to buy 19" wheels so when can have the privelage to spend more money on an LSD. An option that should have been standard when the Cayman S was introduced as an 06. Most people didn't know this but until the 2009 C2S came out you, couldn't get a limited slip on a CS2 for many a year in the U.S. The LSD is not quite as critical on the 997 because of the engine weight behind the rear axle but it is still a must have option on any sports car.

The 370Z has an LSD as part of sport package as I believe the G37 does as well. There are number of less expensive cars than the 3 series that offer an LSD option.

My only hang up with the M3 is it's atrocious mileage. The M Division made a major mistake focussing on electronic gizmos with the M3 rather than putting R&D into giving the S65 the DFI it deserves. Imagine 25 more horsepower and another 3 miles to the gallon. I hope BMW doesn't give up on the S65 and looks to implement DFI rather than go the easy route like almost everyone else with FI.

Map, can you provide any information at this point about the 335tii? Roundel said it would be released in the next year but BMW has been oh so quiet since the initial hullabaloo. Most importantly, will BMW offer an LSD as an option? If it does, this would be the great compromise in regards to a price to efficiency to performance ratio. Yes, BMW could then use the "efficient dynamics" moniker with integrity.