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[The X Men]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

lol, i suppose everyone in this thread talks out of their asses

No, just you, most people in here actually know their stuff, its people like you who makes forums like this uninformative. My advise to you is not to post anything if you are ill informed.

[gpb]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

if you live in the USA mid-Atlantic like I do, where it occasionally snows, All-seasons are a reasonable choice.

Originally Posted by 335BBS

Reasonable? Winter tires WILL help you stop faster in winter ...dry or snow covered. FACT.

Need to take statements in context. Clearly he's making a trade off between cost of running AS against seperate summer & winter tires plus costs of wheels or mounting/balancing. I didn't see anything in his post claiming that AS were equivalent to winter tires, only that he could work around the limitations of AS given his environment.

As I'm sure you can imagine, winter in Maryland is a lot different from Toronto in terms of temperature and precipitation.

[335BBS]

Originally Posted by gpb

Need to take statements in context. Clearly he's making a trade off between cost of running AS against seperate summer & winter tires plus costs of wheels or mounting/balancing. I didn't see anything in his post claiming that AS were equivalent to winter tires, only that he could work around the limitations of AS given his environment.

As I'm sure you can imagine, winter in Maryland is a lot different from Toronto in terms of temperature and precipitation.

Agreed but cost is not really a factor. You are going to go through 2 (at least) sets of tires in the life of your car so why not make one summer(A/S if you must) and one winter? Youre just buying the second set early.
Winter in Maryland is probably different than here in Toronto but once the roads get cold winter/snow tires grip where A/S compound won't, so its not just about snow.

[335BBS]

Originally Posted by The X Men

No, just you, most people in here actually know their stuff, its people like you who makes forums like this uninformative. My advise to you is not to post anything if you are ill informed.

Hey X, check his posts...he's one of the knowlegeable guys. Your truck WOULD be safer on winter tires....fact. You should calm down...sounds like its getting a little personal.

[Kolyan2k]

It always gets personal when it comes to tires and AWD i am used to it. especially when you bring facts.

[FormerRotor]

Originally Posted by 335BBS

Hey X, check his posts...he's one of the knowlegeable guys. Your truck WOULD be safer on winter tires....fact. You should calm down...sounds like its getting a little personal.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed the argument was based on a misunderstanding of the original statement.

I've driven all different types of cars in the snow, and I could definitely see situations in which an AWD with winter performance tires would not be as good as a RWD with snow tires (deep snow or true glare ice are the first that come to mind). The winter performance tires tend to be limited by their compounds as they need to maintain higher speed ratings and typically dry winter road performance. And, as indicated by the poster, some tires (in any category) are better than others. Going from bad winter performance to good snow would be like going from bad all seasons to good winter performance (in winter conditions).

Similarly, an AWD with the same tires as the RWD will accelerate more effectively, but that is not what the original post said which started the debate over nothing.

To prolong the argument, though, I would state that RWD is my preference to FWD in the snow (or any time for that matter) for me given my driving style. The issue to me lies in the fact that with FWD, you are attempting to gain forward motion (accelerating) and lateral motion ( steering ) with the same traction surface (the front tires). Whereas with RWD, I have an easier time maintaining control through the separation of the steering (FW) and acceleration (RW) with the added benefit of being able to more easily adjust the vehicle angle or steer with the appropriate modulation of the throttle. Additionally, with each axle being given a different primary purpose, the tires do not need to work as hard to maintain traction. Just a thought...

[335BBS]

Originally Posted by FormerRotor

I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed the argument was based on a misunderstanding of the original statement.

I've driven all different types of cars in the snow, and I could definitely see situations in which an AWD with winter performance tires would not be as good as a RWD with snow tires (deep snow or true glare ice are the first that come to mind). The winter performance tires tend to be limited by their compounds as they need to maintain higher speed ratings and typically dry winter road performance. And, as indicated by the poster, some tires (in any category) are better than others. Going from bad winter performance to good snow would be like going from bad all seasons to good winter performance (in winter conditions).

Similarly, an AWD with the same tires as the RWD will accelerate more effectively, but that is not what the original post said which started the debate over nothing.

To prolong the argument, though, I would state that RWD is my preference to FWD in the snow (or any time for that matter) for me given my driving style. The issue to me lies in the fact that with FWD, you are attempting to gain forward motion (accelerating) and lateral motion ( steering ) with the same traction surface (the front tires). Whereas with RWD, I have an easier time maintaining control through the separation of the steering (FW) and acceleration (RW) with the added benefit of being able to more easily adjust the vehicle angle or steer with the appropriate modulation of the throttle. Additionally, with each axle being given a different primary purpose, the tires do not need to work as hard to maintain traction. Just a thought...

Yea but you can do GREAT backwards doughnuts/Rockford turns with FWD in the snow!

[gunnerxq]

Originally Posted by fravel

Meh, I purchased my car late this past summer and it came with a send of brand new AS tires. I planned on buying a second set of dedicated wheels/tires for the summer and swapping the stock tires for winters but that after thinking about it more it seems like a waste of money to me. I'm gonna run these until it's time to change them, then I'll put a set of winters on.

Where do you live so I can avoid you?

[Kolyan2k]

that RWD was E46 M3 by the way, LSD certainly helps. drove that car through snow blizzard at night just for fun and personal knowledge. few hours of highway, streets, and even off road in deep fresh snow. took my S2000 to some off road woods in New Hampshire too, never got stuck on Blizzak LM60s....wouldnt do that on 335i though

[335BBS]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

that RWD was E46 M3 by the way, LSD certainly helps. drove that car through snow blizzard at night just for fun and personal knowledge. few hours of highway, streets, and even off road in deep fresh snow. took my S2000 to some off road woods in New Hampshire too, never got stuck on Blizzak LM60s....wouldnt do that on 335i though

NOTHING compares to AWD with four winter tires. I've had 5 Audis.....going back as soon as I can.
I got caught last spring putting my summers on too early.....freak snow fall....car wouldnt move on flat road....at all.

[gunnerxq]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

that RWD was E46 M3 by the way, LSD certainly helps. drove that car through snow blizzard at night just for fun and personal knowledge. few hours of highway, streets, and even off road in deep fresh snow. took my S2000 to some off road woods in New Hampshire too, never got stuck on Blizzak LM60s....wouldnt do that on 335i though

Why wouldn't you do it on a 335i with winter tires?

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by gunnerxq

Why wouldn't you do it on a 335i with winter tires?

Off road with ton of snow and no LSD, can get stuck. 2-wheel drive vs 1-wheel drive. Its no fun when 1 wheel spins. Has never been an issue for me on 335i but I never took 335i to woods Have done many "tests" on 335, real nice in snow and real fun with partial traction control enabled

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

It always gets personal when it comes to tires and AWD i am used to it. especially when you bring facts.

One test from tire rack does not make anything a fact, and I never said AS was as good as winter tires in the snow. All I said was they both have their advantages and disadvantages and in areas like Boston, many people have gotten away with AWD and a good set of AS. If you are further north, I would recommand AWD with snow.

[Kolyan2k]

i dont what to argue anymore

[Envuks]

The 335 has an open diff so it's totally different than an M3 in the winter... I wouldn't rely on it in the winter. Even with good snow tires it can be questionable. With all seasons I think you'll be dead in the water in upstate NY... Get snows

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

i dont what to argue anymore

Its all good

[FormerRotor]

Lol at reverse donuts.

Personally I put winter tires on all my cars (RWD OR AWD) with braking/turning more in mind than accelerating.

My wife's car (x5) was purchased in winter and when we ran it around with all seasons for one season. compared to my 335 with winter tires, we found that the braking and turning alone (given, much of it due to the weight differential) was enough to make the 335 (RWD) our DD in the winter for any situation in which it had clearance. Once we got winter tires on the x5, it became a snow eating monster on acceleration, but (more importantly) felt extremely planted and controlled on braking/cornering.

[gpb]

Originally Posted by 335BBS

Agreed but cost is not really a factor. You are going to go through 2 (at least) sets of tires in the life of your car so why not make one summer(A/S if you must) and one winter? Youre just buying the second set early.
Winter in Maryland is probably different than here in Toronto but once the roads get cold winter/snow tires grip where A/S compound won't, so its not just about snow.

If you use each set (winter/summer) proportionate to their tread life, then yes it's largely a wash ignoring the cost of twice-a-year mounting/balancing or buying a second set of rims. It *seems* to me that it's unlikely to work out exactly and you'd still experience a higher cost than going with AS tires. It'd depend on a lot of factors including ones driving style and how many months of the year one runs winter tires vs summer tires.

There's the additional factor that not everyone has storage space to keep a set of tires/wheels.

All I'm getting at is that I can see why someone would accept the less than optimum performance of AS tires. That doesn't mean its the right choice for all people or all situations, just like dedicated winter/summer sets aren't the right choice for all either. I imagine you'd get a confused look if you tried to buy a set of winter tires in Miami FL.


Personally I'll see how grip is this winter as it's my first BMW and I'm in Atlanta now where winter temps are substantially higher than Toronto and we rarely see snow stick to pavement. If I were still living in central New York State I'd have budgetted for a set of winter/snow tires & wheels and probably already have them installed.

[ihc95]

Last night I had to drive home from work in the snow. I thought the snow would hold off until I got home but I was SOL. My car is on bald summer rfts and holy shit was it scary. The car did not want to stay in a straight line and the traction light was flashing the whole way home. Going up a slight incline I could feel the car slightly drifting and with cars right next to you in the other lane, that is not fun. The car will be staying indoors during the snow. Believe me had I known it would start snowing as early as it did, the car would've stayed home in the garage.

[N8N]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

^ you say plan your trip and learn how to drive in snow....but the fact is accidents are not planned and even the best drivers get in to them, and by running AS tires you increase that chance greatly.

I would understand if AS were great in summer and so so in winter ......but another fact is that they are no good in summer or in winter. So it basically comes down to 2 things .....1 you cannot afford another set or 2 you are to lazy to switch for your own safety and safety of others

I paid $600 for a used set of near-new Blizzaks and wheels on Craigslist. If I'd held out longer I probably could have got wheels that fit (long story) but I was kind of in a hurry because I bought the car late in the year and actually just put them on last weekend. Fortunately the storm that was threatening didn't hit, nor did we get any snow during the hurricane as was the worst case scenario. But my point is that if you can't afford $6-700 for then you're probably not meant to own a (newer at least) BMW. That's not an elitist statement, I'm just saying that sooner or later there's going to be a repair bill of some sort as well and it ain't gonna be cheap... and German cars don't take well to deferred repairs in my experience.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

^ you say plan your trip and learn how to drive in snow....but the fact is accidents are not planned and even the best drivers get in to them, and by running AS tires you increase that chance greatly.

I would understand if AS were great in summer and so so in winter ......but another fact is that they are no good in summer or in winter. So it basically comes down to 2 things .....1 you cannot afford another set or 2 you are to lazy to switch for your own safety and safety of others

Hey man, I've run all-season tires on my E90 for about 170,000 miles now. I've been able to get my 80-mile one-way commute down to 1 hour and 24 minutes (my best time) on all seasons; so, go do the math. And my commute has about 55 miles of (45 MPH) back roads and 25 miles of highway (though usually in stop and go traffic); back roads that you spend your nights dreaming about. So go ahead and spread all crap about all-season tires all you want on the internet. I know what works on my car. I've lived in the mid-Atlantic area my whole life and have driven over 1 million miles and I've never owned a set of dedicated Winter tires, and I've never had an accident in the snow. I used to be a professional courier and HAD to drive in all weather conditions.

And all I can do is laugh at your asinine statement about "too lazy to switch for my own safety or the safety of others" - FU bud. Are you seriously saying that all-season tires are a safety hazard and shouldn't be used in any season? Really? That is about the most asinine thing I've ever read on this forum. Go look at The Tire Rack's data on Summer, All-Season, and Winter tires and see how close they all are in dry-weather performance.

BTW, I can afford to buy a set of tires every month of the year if I wanted to, and I have a Rotory SPA010 lift in my garage and a full set of air tools (an Ingersol Rand 2131 impact gun to be specific) so I can change my wheels every day in 20 minutes if I needed to. So next time, write something when you know what you are talking about, or STFU.

I'm on my 7th set of tires in 6 years and 6 months so you can act like an ass, or realize other people have real experiences and real data to back it up.

[galahad05]

Feelin' the hate here.
It gives off a yummy warm glow.