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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum
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335i limp mode party at the track
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06-14-2011, 12:16 PM | #397 |
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06-14-2011, 12:38 PM | #398 |
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wonder if the DCI is playing a role. I switched back to the factory airbox. I wonder if the Mr. 5 Intake would solve your problems?
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06-14-2011, 01:03 PM | #399 |
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I went through the issue in this thread a few years ago...
Logging the coolant temperature is great but it needs to be in format with other parameters over time so we have idea what truly is happening. Do not rely on the temperature gauge as the absolute temperature of the system because it is only reading at one specific location and there will be local boiling in other locations. If chose to run 100% distilled water then you will reduce the boiling point by 7-8 degrees over 50/50 solution and not advisable without a wetting additive. The best comprise is running a solution mix 70/30 with a wetting additive. With this you get addition 6-15 C reduction (feedback from other a few years ago) in coolant temperature and possible more since the wetting agent is effective at reducing localized boiling areas which is a known problem in this engine. The flow rate of the coolant will increase due the decreased viscosity of the coolant as well. The wetting agent is effective with 30/70 but half of what you would see with 100 distilled water. If you have tune (14-15 PSI max) then you need an upgraded IC and should consider oil cooler as well. Due to the massive increase in temperature pressure drop of the IC you are going to see power reduction before you hit any cooling threshold. If you have auto transmission there are few tips you should consider. Run the transmission in manual mode. Turn traction control completely off. This is big issue with this transmission as intervention of the traction control system adds massive amount heat back into the transmission via clutch slippage which ends up back into the coolant system. I stopped having any coolant issues (limp mode) once I turned off traction control. Changing the coolant to 30/70 mixture with a wetting additive goes a long way at reducing limp mode but it not enough if you are running with traction control on! |
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06-14-2011, 01:25 PM | #401 | |
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FMIC: Check Oil Cooler: Check Auto transmission in manual mode: Check (Would be crazy to attempt otherwise on the track) traction control completely off: Check All good points, at least in my case I'm already doing all of these. Interesting comment about eliminating limp modes by turning off traction control, I didn't realize the effect on the transmission, I was under the impression that it kills rear pads only. Good info, thanks. |
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06-14-2011, 01:31 PM | #402 |
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It probably is. But wouldn't switching over to the stock airbox impede airflow for non-stock boost as well? Haven't looked at the Mr. 5 Intake yet.
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06-14-2011, 02:12 PM | #403 | |
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A lot of this is going come down to what tune you are running in the end. You might want to upgrade the radiator next. Was going to try this but did not need it in the end. It has been around for 3 year and is it one other better one with a decent slat design. http://www.pwrusainc.com/radiators.a...=All&id=7&sp=7 |
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06-14-2011, 02:13 PM | #404 | |
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Thanks for the chart Peter - good to know.
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06-14-2011, 05:00 PM | #406 |
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When running a tune, I was going to say that a strong possibility would be traction induced limp modes. I saw in a follow-up post that you ran with it completely off, so it doesn't apply to you, but since nobody has mentioned this yet, I thought it was great to share and discuss.
Last year, I also triggered limp modes while running 10/10ths (DTC button pressed once), but no problems at 8/10ths. Oil temps were still normal. After feeding this back to Shiv, he explained that it may be a traction induced limp mode, where the DTC logic was trying to dial boost back to 5psi, but the tune was still trying to hit 11-15psi (or whatever you have it set to). He gave me a new set of PROcede maps/firmware to try w/ the early stages of his traction control feature, and my low oil temp limp modes went away next track day. I verified that the PROcede dialed boost back to what the ECU wants during traction controlled triggered events, but quickly builds back up to targeted levels once traction is regained, so the net effect is unoticeable (no feeling of being bogged down beyond what traction control was already doing). Although this possibility doesn't apply to you, since you run w/ traction control OFF, I think it's valuable to share in this thread. We're doing a great job of identifying and discussing all the limp mode inducing causes on the track. I should draw up a fishbone diagram or something For those who don't know what it is, it's a common tool used in problem solving methodologies. P.S. I bet you had no idea this thread would grow this big. But I guess unlike the other sub-forums on e90post, us track enthusiasts don't feel a need to start new threads for every point of discussion, lol. Otherwise, I may have done so, as this may be worth highlighting in a new thread since it's different from the typical oil and water induced limps we've been focusing on.
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06-14-2011, 05:25 PM | #407 | |
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I threw a boost leak code on the track this weekend, but after an ECU reset via the Cobb AP it never came back. The Cobb AP really is an amazing tool for logging. I bet with time they will add coolant temps to the logging parameters. |
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06-14-2011, 06:38 PM | #408 | |
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BTW, the "other" tuner just released a max cool alpha feature where they're driving the water pump at 100%, it may help a bit at the track, we'll see. And yeah, I had no idea this was going to grow into a monster thread, lol. If you come up with the diagram, we can perhaps sticky it to the first post, along with our track results and overall advice for a cool (literally) track day! |
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06-14-2011, 07:25 PM | #409 | |
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Saw the maxcool feature as well. Sounds good in principle but would likely only buy time. Additionally, there are several reports of the pump failing on this car. $300+ part and looks to be about 8 hours in labor. Making it work overtime would be lower on my list. |
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06-14-2011, 07:56 PM | #410 |
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If you're running 100% distilled with MoCool, I think it means you have to be careful to not have the car sit in ~32F or below weather (freezing point of water)?
Ready to do another coolant flush and was wondering if I can keep this mix during the winter in NorCal (Bay Area). Sometimes it gets down to 30s, but inside garage should still be in the 40s. Or should I just do a 30/70 coolant / water+2 bottles MoCool mix? Wonder how much difference it is to 100% distilled + 2 bottles MoCool?
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06-14-2011, 08:11 PM | #411 |
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This thread is a monster, but in all seriousness, it is the only thread I make a point to review on e90 post. Peter, Either you drive mush more aggressively than I do (very possible) or the AT is the key here. I drove in hotter ambient temps with the STETT OC and had no issues.
Can we add a tune column to the chart, hate to make it bigger but it seems important.
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06-14-2011, 09:01 PM | #412 | |||
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06-14-2011, 09:32 PM | #413 | |
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Will add the tune column over the next couple of days, will need to dig back into the thread to see what everyone was running. |
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06-14-2011, 09:35 PM | #414 | |||
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06-14-2011, 09:50 PM | #415 | ||
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DTC should be always on in the beginner/novice class. I would be scared to drive near a novice if he had DTC off. However DTC off is a requirement when you progress to intermediate/advanced, otherwise you'll be frustrated by its constant interference. I find DTC on/DSC Limited (one press) even more annoying, as it will give me the illusion of control but take it away at the moment you need it the most. Spinning wheels, easy fix: LSD. In retrospect, I wish the LSD had been my first track mod, alas I went for power first, that was a big mistake. At the CCA events, I can tell who doesn't have LSD by simply noticing how fast they bog down while turning. |
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06-14-2011, 10:00 PM | #416 |
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and how hot do you think your average car's 3rd gear clutch packs get with repeated 3-4 up shifts, and downshifts? Answer= 300-400F.
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06-14-2011, 10:17 PM | #417 | |
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I think you misunderstood what I wrote. It is only during a traction control event (when the brakes are applied) that a parasitic load is created. If the transmission did not slip (clutch for manuals) then we have a failure or stall the engine. Although this topic is interesting there are limited options in the end and those should be the focus point. It is well documented that the water jacket between cylinders 5 and 6 have localized boiling problem under high loads. A high performance radiator may not correct this problem. This best approach is using a better heat transfer medium (pure water) and water wetter. A wetting agent is the best possible solution in this case and pure water enhances heat transfer a great deal but at the cost of lowering the boiling point. There some give and take in the fluid properties when you using certain mixture so some experimentation may produce results one may not expect. The next thing is adding a high performance radiator which can improve overall heat reject up to 30% being the same design (size and fitment) just by having a good slat and fin design. Having an auto means your overall heat load is higher which is equal to 2% of the engine load at the crank higher when compared to manual transmission…this is an issue. Last edited by Orb; 06-14-2011 at 10:37 PM.. |
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06-14-2011, 10:57 PM | #418 | |
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I have no issue with the AT making choices on the highway for me but on the track the car stays on the gear I want it to stay in. |
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