E90Post
 


 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > 335i engine cooling problem?



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-24-2007, 01:24 AM   #1
sambonator
Samtaro!
sambonator's Avatar
United_States
-6
Rep
2,568
Posts

Drives: 2014 F32 N55 Alpinwei▀
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Newport Beach, CA, USA

iTrader: (6)

Question 335i engine cooling problem?

I've read about numerous instances of 335i's going into "limp" mode due to overheating. Over in Bimmerforums, they say Dinan has held off on introducing a performance ECU program for the 335i due to poor cooling around the #5 and #6 pistons, which could cause the car to go into limp mode frequently, or damage the engine, after which Dinan would have to cover under their warranty. http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=775485

Is Dinan just getting back at BMW for cutting off their relationship? Is there some truth to this, evidenced by frequent "limp" mode engagements 335i owners have experienced? Perhaps the heat dissipation capacity of the radiator/oil cooler is not nearly enough for this engine?
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 02:04 AM   #2
e.n335
Moderator
e.n335's Avatar
Austria
161
Rep
4,480
Posts

Drives: e93 ///M3 DCT, 07/2009
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Switzerland, ZH

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sambonator View Post
I've read about numerous instances of 335i's going into "limp" mode due to overheating. Over in Bimmerforums, they say Dinan has held off on introducing a performance ECU program for the 335i due to poor cooling around the #5 and #6 pistons, which could cause the car to go into limp mode frequently, or damage the engine, after which Dinan would have to cover under their warranty. http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=775485

Is Dinan just getting back at BMW for cutting off their relationship? Is there some truth to this, evidenced by frequent "limp" mode engagements 335i owners have experienced? Perhaps the heat dissipation capacity of the radiator/oil cooler is not nearly enough for this engine?
It is proven, that tuned PROcede'd engines are reliable ( 12h Bathurst race ). Well, a few engines had heat problems in the past, under normal driving conditions. This seems to be solved on newer cars. Of course, the sport package with the oil-cooler would not be wrong. Most cars didn't exceed 260 degrees F, even when ran hard.
__________________
Not more than 500 chp for my daily driver. Well, ... .

Last edited by e.n335; 06-24-2007 at 02:50 AM.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 02:16 AM   #3
zenmaster
Brigadier General
United_States
1456
Rep
3,828
Posts

Drives: '17 M2
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Atlanta

iTrader: (1)

Truth to what?
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 02:54 AM   #4
sambonator
Samtaro!
sambonator's Avatar
United_States
-6
Rep
2,568
Posts

Drives: 2014 F32 N55 Alpinwei▀
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Newport Beach, CA, USA

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenmaster View Post
Truth to what?
Truth to the claim Steve Dinan is making, which is that the N54 engine has insufficient cooling around the #5 and #6 cylinders.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 02:58 AM   #5
e.n335
Moderator
e.n335's Avatar
Austria
161
Rep
4,480
Posts

Drives: e93 ///M3 DCT, 07/2009
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Switzerland, ZH

iTrader: (0)

I think that Dinan has some serious problems with their products & pricing. The times have changed, owning a BMW does not imply to pay any price for a mod. Same with Supersprint. If they want to sell something they have to come down to a Vishnu or AA price level. The warranty is no issue. Here in Europe you can get such a warranty for ~ US$ 250 / year.
__________________
Not more than 500 chp for my daily driver. Well, ... .
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 10:41 AM   #6
zenmaster
Brigadier General
United_States
1456
Rep
3,828
Posts

Drives: '17 M2
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Atlanta

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sambonator View Post
Truth to the claim Steve Dinan is making, which is that the N54 engine has insufficient cooling around the #5 and #6 cylinders.
I thought this was common knowledge.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 11:59 AM   #7
DrewKo
Lieutenant Colonel
DrewKo's Avatar
32
Rep
1,568
Posts

Drives: 335i Montego Blue Saddle Brown
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2007 335i  [0.00]
It is common that the 335i will overheat if run very hard for an above average period of time...The 12 hour Bathhurst cars received modified, larger intercoolers than stock to prevent overheating [CORRECTION...they received modified oil coolers..sorry about that]...also, some folks who received the oil cooler retrofit have still experienced limp mode on the track. Regarding Dinan, I have no information re that issue.

Last edited by DrewKo; 06-24-2007 at 02:02 PM.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 12:21 PM   #8
zenmaster
Brigadier General
United_States
1456
Rep
3,828
Posts

Drives: '17 M2
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Atlanta

iTrader: (1)

Stressdoc is following the subject. From http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=50621&page=10 :
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by stressdoc

The one thing I would LOVE to see is a BMW AG engineer get into the discussion of the aftermarket tuning. What does BMW think are the potential costs to the use of the PROcede?
I am not an engineer at BMW AG but I do have contacts wth the engineers that work at FIZ. I want to share some information that may be useful, and I apologize in advance if you guys already know most of this. All numbers quoted are DIN at the crank.

BMW is working at releasing an N54 HP motor by the end of this year. Although the platforms that will be equipped with this version have not yet been decided, it is safe to say that the E90 through E93 platforms will get it as soon as it is available. The expected HP rating is around 355PS, up from the standard 306PS of today's motor. The current HP test engines have exacerbated a problem that already exists on the current 306PS motor, where the temperatures of cylinders 5 and 6 are higher than expected and are a huge cause for concern. BMW is looking at a solution to this problem, and is also anticipating that they may experience some engine failures on the current motor. What is clear, is that they heve to wrestle the cause of the problem, and/or find a solution, before they release the N54 HP version into the market.

In typical BMW fashion, these issues are monitored without being made public, as they do not want to have to answer to any unwanted warranty claim, or even worse, be forced to issue a general recall that may prove to be unecessary, as they will address the isolated cases on a one-by-one basis. This is no different than how they handled the piston ring/oil consumption problem on the early S62 motor. Don't be surprised, if they should decide to keep the standard 306PS version alongside the HP (i.e. in the 135i), to see next year's engine to be a little different than what is offered today.

If any of you have driven your 335i hard, you may have noticed a tendency for the oil temperatures to be a little high. The problem is that the temperature gauge is measuring the average temperature once the oil recirculates, so you can imagine, if cylinders 5 and 6 are the ones generating most of the heat, that this is an area that could be prone to failure.

Recently Alpina introduced their Alpina B3 BiTurbo at the Geneva Auto Salˇn. The car is rated at 360PS, and this is the level of power that BMW feels safe with at this point. We may sit here and go back and forth on who of the vendors on this board produces the most power and why, but surely nobody will try to argue that Alpina does not have the resources, nor the expertise, to extract every bit of power from the N54 motor. Just keep in mind that they have had experience with turbocharged BMW motors that goes back 30 years, and have been consulting with BMW on the development of the N54 motor itself.

Like Alpina and BMW, Racing Dynamics S.p.A. and its U.S. arm RDSport are approacing this subject with caution, and our current offering is a result of many factors: the main one is the oveheating issue, but most of the others haven't even been mentioned anywhere in this thread.

Good luck to all.

Racing Dynamics S.p.A./RDSport
Federico L. Pavoncelli
President
Presumably, the same changes that BMW will need to make to their 355 HP N54 HP engine would be the same to which Dinan is referring.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 12:29 PM   #9
stressdoc
Moderator
stressdoc's Avatar
Dominica
405
Rep
10,545
Posts

Drives: F80 YMB
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: VBeach VA

iTrader: (0)

Hartge does not seem to be having any cooling problems with their engine upgrades. But like Alpina, they have modded the engine up to about 340 - 360 bhp (given that I think the N54 that we are all getting is the 325-330 bhp version, this is only a modest 10% increase). I am not aware of increased overheating issues with PROceded cars, although definitive track tests have yet to be performed. Shiv says that the engine can handle cooling problems inherent to the increased boost, but that may involve some further adjustments to the air/fuel ratios or other factors.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 12:35 PM   #10
OpenFlash
Tuner
United_States
1042
Rep
17,615
Posts

Drives: X1, 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewKo View Post
It is common that the 335i will overheat if run very hard for an above average period of time...The 12 hour Bathhurst cars received modified, larger intercoolers than stock to prevent overheating...also, some folks who received the oil cooler retrofit have still experienced limp mode on the track. Regarding Dinan, I have no information re that issue.
FWIW, the 12hr cars only had an upgraded oil cooler. Stock IC and stock radiator. The AC condensor, however, was removed (which means more airflow to the radiator).

Shiv
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 12:41 PM   #11
DrewKo
Lieutenant Colonel
DrewKo's Avatar
32
Rep
1,568
Posts

Drives: 335i Montego Blue Saddle Brown
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2007 335i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
FWIW, the 12hr cars only had an upgraded oil cooler. Stock IC and stock radiator. The AC condensor, however, was removed (which means more airflow to the radiator).

Shiv
Tx for clarifying...i knew one piece was upgraded to handle cooling, but incorrectly thought it was the IC.

I would love to know what was done to the oil cooler to handle those race conditions, because I would do the same to my car.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 12:47 PM   #12
stressdoc
Moderator
stressdoc's Avatar
Dominica
405
Rep
10,545
Posts

Drives: F80 YMB
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: VBeach VA

iTrader: (0)

Hey Shiv, could you remind us what brand of oil you guys ran in the Bathurst car?
Thanks.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 01:27 PM   #13
Panoz
Lieutenant Colonel
Panoz's Avatar
70
Rep
1,575
Posts

Drives: E92 Space Grey 335i ,Aero Kit
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: EU

iTrader: (0)

Well after the latest Zenmaster's post I'm pretty nervous ...Even though i havent noticed my temp gauge increasing more than it should even for once.
__________________

Procede V4 , Catless DPs, Forge FMIC, Injen Intake, VK Oilcooler, Hartge Quads Exhaust, Modded CDV, Synapse BOV Kit, BMW Performance 335i SSK Kit, P3 vent boost gauge

Space Grey 335i -> See more pics HERE
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 01:39 PM   #14
ss109
'Ringer
2
Rep
105
Posts

Drives: 1990 325i, 2007 335i
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Springfield, Missouri

iTrader: (3)

I did 4 consecutive sub 9 minute laps on the Nuerburgring and the temp never once got above 250; ambient was 80*+.

If the car can handle that, I'm not too worried about driving around the town.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 01:56 PM   #15
zenmaster
Brigadier General
United_States
1456
Rep
3,828
Posts

Drives: '17 M2
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Atlanta

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panoz View Post
Well after the latest Zenmaster's post I'm pretty nervous ...Even though i havent noticed my temp gauge increasing more than it should even for once.
Why are you nervous? I'd enjoy the car, and if there are any engine problems down the road, BMW will take ownership of the problem and take care of it. Unlike many auto manuf., they are good about standing behind their products. When my E34 540i's Nikasil engine went bad, they replaced the entire thing for free with one from the E39. This was after 100,000mi was put on the original engine. Hell, that's one of the reasons my next car was also a BMW. A company like Mazda, on the other hand, would leave you in the cold.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 02:09 PM   #16
sambonator
Samtaro!
sambonator's Avatar
United_States
-6
Rep
2,568
Posts

Drives: 2014 F32 N55 Alpinwei▀
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Newport Beach, CA, USA

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenmaster View Post
Why are you nervous? I'd enjoy the car, and if there are any engine problems down the road, BMW will take ownership of the problem and take care of it. Unlike many auto manuf., they are good about standing behind their products. When my E34 540i's Nikasil engine went bad, they replaced the entire thing for free with one from the E39. This was after 100,000mi was put on the original engine. Hell, that's one of the reasons my next car was also a BMW. A company like Mazda, on the other hand, would leave you in the cold.
Are you saying its normal for BMW to replace engines that go bad after 100K miles?
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 02:16 PM   #17
zenmaster
Brigadier General
United_States
1456
Rep
3,828
Posts

Drives: '17 M2
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Atlanta

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sambonator View Post
Are you saying its normal for BMW to replace engines that go bad after 100K miles?
I guess it depends on the nature of the problem and if there is a recall involved. In this case, there was a recall. However, I've never heard of any BMW engine going bad before 100K mi. unless there was a design or manufacturing defect.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 02:50 PM   #18
e.n335
Moderator
e.n335's Avatar
Austria
161
Rep
4,480
Posts

Drives: e93 ///M3 DCT, 07/2009
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Switzerland, ZH

iTrader: (0)

This overheating of clylinder #5 and #6 is a quite old story and came up when Alpina developed the 360 bhp version of the N54 engine. I had a tel. discussion with a guy who has been involved in the development those times ( end of 2006 ). According to him it has been a design flaw on early engines and has been fixed ( retrofitted ). It would make no sense for BMW to produce still the old design, being aware about the issue, risking engine problems and having it to be retrofitted by Alpina. This would also be a perfect explanation why there are some engines out producing significant more heat than the majority of the N54's. All I can say is that my engine ( a pretty new one ) is running on the cooler side, with and without the PROcede.

Hope that helps.

Cheers
Eugen
__________________
Not more than 500 chp for my daily driver. Well, ... .
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 05:09 PM   #19
DrewKo
Lieutenant Colonel
DrewKo's Avatar
32
Rep
1,568
Posts

Drives: 335i Montego Blue Saddle Brown
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2007 335i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by eugen.niederreiter View Post
This overheating of clylinder #5 and #6 is a quite old story and came up when Alpina developed the 360 bhp version of the N54 engine. I had a tel. discussion with a guy who has been involved in the development those times ( end of 2006 ). According to him it has been a design flaw on early engines and has been fixed ( retrofitted ). It would make no sense for BMW to produce still the old design, being aware about the issue, risking engine problems and having it to be retrofitted by Alpina. This would also be a perfect explanation why there are some engines out producing significant more heat than the majority of the N54's. All I can say is that my engine ( a pretty new one ) is running on the cooler side, with and without the PROcede.

Hope that helps.

Cheers
Eugen
Well, I have not heard of the engine "retrofit" you mention above. Can you be more specific? There has not been an overall engine retrofit to handle heat issues to my knowledge.

My build is Nov. 2006 (no oil cooler and sport/step). I took the car out today in 90 degree heat, did two runs for a total time of about 7-10 minutes up to 120 mph and instantly got it to 280 degrees. One more run and it would hit limp mode. I have a Procede. I have a buddy south of me also with a Procede, later build date than mine, who received the
oiler cooler retrofit, took his car to a track and it went into limp mode in 15 minutes.

I am getting the oil cooler retrofit, but, just like the Bathurst cars that received some modified oil cooler to handle this issue, unless your 335i has such a modification and is a step sport, you are going to have real, major heat issues, to the point that you will not be able to run your car hard for more than a little while, and definitely won't be able to run it hard on a track. This was true of my vehicle before installing the procede, when I put it to 295 degres on the highway in atlanta in about 5 minutes at 120-130 mph before slowing down to avoid limp mode, and after using the procede. Whether it is a TT, Cherry Tuner, AA tuner, RD sport tuner, Alpina, or Dinan, without some modification to the cooling system, the car is going to run hot when pushed within its limits and hit limp mode.

If anyone has tracked their 335i hard with an oil cooler and not had any heat issues, I would like to hear about that. My experience thus far is the opposite, but then again maybe there are different engine parts or systems already in circulation.

Eugen, i would like to hear more about this "retrofit" you mention.
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 05:10 PM   #20
Panoz
Lieutenant Colonel
Panoz's Avatar
70
Rep
1,575
Posts

Drives: E92 Space Grey 335i ,Aero Kit
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: EU

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eugen.niederreiter View Post
According to him it has been a design flaw on early engines and has been fixed ( retrofitted ). It would make no sense for BMW to produce still the old design, being aware about the issue, risking engine problems and having it to be retrofitted by Alpina.
What do you mean by "EARLY" engines? My car is an Oct-06 production vehicle. Is that supposed to be early ??

Even though my temp gauge always stays on the "coolest" side of the panel but the fact is I'm not stressing my car extensively in order to know for sure. I think i will take it for a "vicious" ride soon.
__________________

Procede V4 , Catless DPs, Forge FMIC, Injen Intake, VK Oilcooler, Hartge Quads Exhaust, Modded CDV, Synapse BOV Kit, BMW Performance 335i SSK Kit, P3 vent boost gauge

Space Grey 335i -> See more pics HERE
Appreciate 0
      06-24-2007, 05:15 PM   #21
DrewKo
Lieutenant Colonel
DrewKo's Avatar
32
Rep
1,568
Posts

Drives: 335i Montego Blue Saddle Brown
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2007 335i  [0.00]
P.S., here is a summary of what Steve Dinan said about the overheating issue at Bimmerfest taken from http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=775485

"I listened to Steve Dinan's lecture at Bimmerfest. He addressed the 335i. Says the hold up on many issues is related to the engine's sub par cooling on the 5&6 cylinders. The engine tends to overheat due to the turbo chargers and the narrow water pathways of the block's water jacket. It sounded like they were going to try improving the volume of the H2O pump to flow more coolant through the motor. I was kinda left with the impression that until they solve the heat issue, they are gonna delay release of anything to increase power since the engine is rather delicate from an overheating perspective."

This above sounds like what I am thinking is necessary to adequately address the issue.
Appreciate 0
      06-25-2007, 12:28 AM   #22
Aeroav8r
Private First Class
United_States
1
Rep
125
Posts

Drives: '11 535i
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Tustin, CA

iTrader: (1)

Sept 2006 build here, step/sport no oil cooler. I have purposely ran this car hard (0-100-0, for 30 minutes) to purposely get high oil temps. Gauge never got over 250 F, go figure.
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:30 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST