[2e9x's]

Originally Posted by jjlawyer

yeah, boost solinoid bypass.

A BMW Tech I REALLY respect has noticed a boost issue on these cars that he thinks might be vacuum related. With what you were discussing, you might want to look at the vacuum hoses around the boost solenoid...Just a thought.

[sg335]

Originally Posted by reb03

I suppose Satch might be interested in this for the Letters section in Roundel.

Great idea. Are you going to be the author?

[RMRC]

Originally Posted by sg335

Great idea. Are you going to be the author?

Yes but any input would be great. Perhaps even better would be letters from all those affected.

[Hegemony]

Originally Posted by sg335

Any reduction in power? How long was each session? How many sessions in that one day? How hard were you driving/lap times?

No reduction in power
20 minute sessions
4 sessions per day
It was hot, humid and there was little wind.

I was driving at about 3/4 of my capabilities most of the time. I routinely had the revs up in to the high 5000's to low 6000's on the straights in 3rd and 4th. This was my first time out with NASA and my first time at RA, so they had me in HPDE-1. There was a huge range of cars and driver experience.

I didn't time any laps, but there were a few that were and they were running about 1:50. Considering that I passed those guys, I assume I was running somewhere in the 1:40s when I had space to do so. The top runners in the Time Trials groups were running 1:33-1:35s.

It's easily possible to hit the speed limiter on the back straight. I did not, however. I only got it up to 140 back there because there was usually someone ahead of me that I was going to catch going into the next turn (10A) and I didn't want to be riding their bumper because most of them were braking too early and I didn't want to be close when they lost it.

This isn't to say I didn't drive hard. I passed 90% of the pack and lapped a couple of people several times, and I was typically going ~110 coming out of 12. I just wasn't going 100% all the time. Also, I'm just bringing this up because the headline of this thread could be read to imply that 335s simply shouldn't be driven in these temps because they will overheat. Some people are obviously having problems, but it's not everyone.

[RMRC]

It seems that in 90+ degree heat you can avoid overheating the car if you drive at 75-80%. After my car kept shutting down I would pull back and drive at 80% to avoid limping but even then my oil temp hovered around 280+. I wonder if you'd have the same feedback if you had been in the run group best suited to your capabilities and you were pushing the car?

[Hegemony]

It's possible, but I don't think so. We ran at Talladega Grand Prix in June and even then my oil temps stayed rock solid at ~250 or below. It was 85+ degrees, humid, with little wind, and that track doesn't really let you stretch the car out. It's a lot of braking/turns with fairly short straights.

Also, when you backed off you still saw 280. I've never been that high.

I'm going back to Talladega in Oct and will be going to Barber in Sept as well. Barber will be a good test as I'm going with Chin Motorsports and they run 45min sessions. Weather will probably cool off a bit by then though.

-Hegemony

EDIT: One important detail. I didn't run BMW oil at RA, but I did at TGP. I upgraded to Motul 300v at RA, but that was more for protection at high temps than cooling capabilities. Also, before anyone goes off on "it's not LL-01 approved" I change every 2500-3000 miles and typically right before a track event.

[RMRC]

It just occurred to me: Do you think the altitude at Willow Springs (2,000 ft) combined with 90+ degree temps could be the problem? It doesn't seem that 2,000 ft elevation would have that much impact but what do you guys think?

[jjlawyer]

Saying you have no problem at 3/4 or in 85+ degrees, doesn't mean you won't have problems at 100+ or when you crank it up a bit. It might be true that each car is different, or it might be true that if you guys were at willow in summer, you would have experienced problems also. Remember, I found that when I backed off just a little, I had no problems at all. And my last time at Willow (I dont remember the temps, probably 75) I ran hard and had no problems. It seams that our cars are right at the cusp of not having enough cooling so that any variable can send you over the edge.

I think a lot also has to do with average speeds at these faster tracks. More speed means more air over the oil cooler. I was having problems consistently at the end of the slow part of the course.

Elevation probably has something, or a lot, to do with it, more boost compensation, less air mass over the oil cooler.

[sg335]

I would agree that the shorter sections in lower gears may be where the problems are. Not enough cooling through the radiator at those speeds given the additional heat generated by usually being in a lower gear at higher rpm's and being on boost most of the time during these sections. 20 degree difference in outside air temps would make a few degree difference in the cooling capabilities of the stock radiator. Didn't Steve Dinan say somewhere in some recent article that he was going to develop a new radiator for the car because he thought the stock unit was lacking?

There is an easy way to duplicate this type of condition to a certain extent if someone is willing to do it. Just drive in 2nd gear at 6,800 rpm for 30 minutes straight on the freeway and see if the car shuts down and monitor the coolant temps with a piece of software. This should come close to duplicating at least the engine heat soak.

[flyga3]

Definitely a design issue! I'm waiting for my E92 335i (replacing a Cooper S). I track the MINI heavily here in Phoenix and I'm replacing this with the 335 and plan to track it hard as well.
The last track session I did with the MINI was with outdoor temp of 102; Track temp 120+, and at no time during the 20 min session with frequent redlining, did I ever get oil temps above 230 and the coolant temp didn't budge on that 4-banger.
Even when I tracked my E46 in the summer I had no over-temp issues at 109 outside!

Looks like I am hosed with a 335 in Phoenix on-track (unless its winter)

You guys have the oil coolers post-March 2007 build?
Those oil coolers not working?

[RMRC]

Originally Posted by flyga3

You guys have the oil coolers post-March 2007 build?
Those oil coolers not working?

Yes jjlawyer, the MotorTrend tester at the Streets of Willow (see here: http://www.motortrend.com/av/roadtes...arison_part_2/) and I all have the oil cooler and it appears all three cars reached the cooling limits in temps of 95+. once those limits are reached - after just 10-15mins of hard driving no less - the temps just keep climbing until the ECU stops the fun and cuts almost all power.

[XS4]

For comparison, I have a modded bi-turbo v6 S4 (around 320hp) and never see more than 225 degrees running in day-to-day 100 degree temps. 205 is normal. Granted the displacement is a little less (2.6 vs 3.0) and temps would be higher on a track but still similar. No oil cooler either. Water temps never budge from normal.
Someone should take a look at the oil lines feeding the turbos. Are they getting baked by the pre-cats and exhaust piping? Are they adequately shielded? Is the oil pump cavitating? Put a set of down pipes on that delete the pre-cats and I suspect you would see a reduction in heat build up behind the turbos. Have you tried increasing air flow to the engine bay? Removed the engine cover? Rig some temp sensors up before and after the oil cooler and around the turbos. Also get some logs of ignition timing/advance during these heatup/shutdown episodes.

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by reb03

Yes jjlawyer, the MotorTrend tester at the Streets of Willow (see here: http://www.motortrend.com/av/roadtes...arison_part_2/) and I all have the oil cooler and it appears all three cars reached the cooling limits in temps of 95+. once those limits are reached - after just 10-15mins of hard driving no less - the temps just keep climbing until the ECU stops the fun and cuts almost all power.

REb03 - are you Step or 6MT?

[Hegemony]

Originally Posted by jjlawyer

Saying you have no problem at 3/4 or in 85+ degrees, doesn't mean you won't have problems at 100+ or when you crank it up a bit.

You can't so easily dismiss the fact that I've never seen oil temps over 250 when running the car over 75% on average in 100 degree, humid weather and reb03 ran his car about the same and was still seeing 280 degree temps. In fact, I'd say that makes it more relevant. When I say was only running the car 75-80% I'm really talking about speed which would cool the car better. I was slowed down by other vehicles meaning I'm sucking their hot air through my radiator with 100 degree ambient temps and I'm still running over 5k rpms. Typically this manifests itself by me not upshifting down the straights.

Elevation could be a factor, but I doubt we'll be able to pin it down to just one cause. For what it's worth Road Atlanta has significant elevation changes on the track. I've been looking all around for the range, but haven't found it thus far.

my car is late 06 build, 6MT sport with oil cooler.

I don't think anyone can legitimately claim that it's "definitely" a design issue especially when they don't even have the car. I have a friend who just took delivery on an E93 and we noted something of interest. The midpoint of my oil temp gauge is 210. The midpoint of his is 250.

EDIT: I think the real answer here is only going to be found by getting a decent sized sample group. All we really have currently is a couple of anecdotes. Unless some of us are willing to bring our cars cross country and try them at the same track under the same conditions, we're simply going to have to wait for more data before declaring this a design flaw or some kind of universal problem.

Also, even though I haven't had problems and I'm declaring that loudly in an effort to keep this from being blown up bigger that it actually may be, I want to be clear that I feel really bad for those of you who are having problems with temps and limp modes at the track. It really sucks and you shouldn't have to go through it on a new BMW whether the problem is isolated to a few builds or across the whole line.

[Noize]

This might seem like a stupid question, but I'm wondering if the darker colored cars are the ones seeing higher oil temperatures? Obviously a black car will have higher underhood temperatures than a white one. If the temperature is on the bubble, so to speak, this might be a valid concern.

I hope to have my car on Little Talladega early next year. But it should be a lot cooler then, and hence no problems.

[RMRC]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

REb03 - are you Step or 6MT?

Step. My father once told me everything in life has tradeoffs. After five MT BMWs in succession and 20k + miles/year in southern CA, the Step was the tradeoff between pulling my hair out in traffic and track fun. Would I make the same decision again...no.

[Hegemony]

Originally Posted by Noize

This might seem like a stupid question, but I'm wondering if the darker colored cars are the ones seeing higher oil temperatures? Obviously a black car will have higher underhood temperatures than a white one. If the temperature is on the bubble, so to speak, this might be a valid concern.

I hope to have my car on Little Talladega early next year. But it should be a lot cooler then, and hence no problems.

My car is sparkling graphite, and the Volk's that I use at the track are gunmetal. It's a pretty close color match with a difference in finish. The car is obviosly gloss while the wheels have a matte finish. Looks mean imo, but it's not for every day.

[flyga3]

Originally Posted by Hegemony

I don't think anyone can legitimately claim that it's "definitely" a design issue especially when they don't even have the car.

EDIT: we're simply going to have to wait for more data before declaring this a design flaw or some kind of universal problem.
.

No need to get sensitive. I'll make my own assessment when I get my July build. And I agree, let's be data oriented about the problem.
But from all the "inputs" so far on a new model having this many overheating problems, this has me concerned. You can't say that BMW, changing their 07 builds in March to include oil cooler on more models, is just "being nice"; something is instigating this based on the current design of engine cooling (aka customer complaints). Obviously it is requiring the change in distribution of coolers and increasing the max temp on the oil gauges. Unless BMW does not expect 335's to go on track??

As you know, many people who are tracking this car are posting on other forums about this heating issue. I would expect drivers of 335's in the Middle East (and other hot climates) are probably seeing the same issue.
Given I will be tracking this car in ambient temps over 105 have me a little concerned, based on everyone's posts so far.

[Hegemony]

Originally Posted by flyga3

You can't say that BMW, changing their 07 builds in March to include oil cooler on more models, is just "being nice"; something is instigating this based on the current design of engine cooling (aka customer complaints).

I'm quite blunt when people ask me about the car and the overheating issues that I think BMW is treating those without the oil cooler like total crap. One of my coworkers had to get the retrofit, that release form is complete garbage.

[RMRC]

Did anyone read the July Roundel? They took a 2007 E90 335i Step with oil cooler to Watkins Glen to test the Step’s track worthiness. The outside air temp was 65 degrees and they managed to get the oil temp up to 280 degrees. It was suggested that the 335i would likely require a bigger oil cooler for track days as the outside air temp heated up in summer. Guess they were right and perhaps they should have thrown in a bigger radiator as well.

[jjlawyer]

Originally Posted by Noize

This might seem like a stupid question, but I'm wondering if the darker colored cars are the ones seeing higher oil temperatures? Obviously a black car will have higher underhood temperatures than a white one. If the temperature is on the bubble, so to speak, this might be a valid concern.

I hope to have my car on Little Talladega early next year. But it should be a lot cooler then, and hence no problems.

I agree with you... it is a stupid question, although I wasn't sure until Hegemony
said his car was sparkling graphite. Mine is sparkling graphite also.

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by reb03

Did anyone read the July Roundel? They took a 2007 E90 335i Step with oil cooler to Watkins Glen to test the Step’s track worthiness. The outside air temp was 65 degrees and they managed to get the oil temp up to 280 degrees. It was suggested that the 335i would likely require a bigger oil cooler for track days as the outside air temp heated up in summer. Guess they were right and perhaps they should have thrown in a bigger radiator as well.

Yeah I saw that. Yowzas, I have a 6MT and I don't get obscenely high oil temps until ambient temps break 90. I have to believe that the Step's tranny fluid sharing the radiator with the coolant has to reduce the coolant cooling capacity. Maybe the step's high coolant temps yield high oil temps too. They both work together to cool the engine, so it makes sense.

That said, I'm still nervous about 285+ temps on my 6MT. Vendors - make us a bigger oil cooler!