The Black Box* Must Read

Garissimo · 03-12-2007, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrM

LOL...I am sure that there are a lot of PROcede owners that would NOT like for a BMW AG engineer to take an interest in these discussions

If you had written "BMW Service Managers", I'd agree with you. I think BMW AG's engineers would provide incredibly valuable insights and would be welcomed with open arms here. I also don't think they'd be the type to "narc on" enthusiasts who bought the product they helped design and are looking to extract a little extra potential.

steveff4 · 03-12-2007, 05:50 PM

The most ironic part about this thread is that a board user independently bought a product and posted his experience with it, and is, for the most part, attacked because it's inferior, less-cost-effective, and unsafe. The proCEDE fans proceed to try to pummel everyone into submission that there is only one answer.

Someone on page 7 posted that he doesn't think that the business deals (gone bad) help the consumer, but I think this is absolutely wrong. If anything, some of it likely helps explain why Shiv went to different hardware -- although you do have to make some assumptions and read between the lines. Because of how this has played out, it appears that the XEDE is still a very viable option for any 335i tuners.

For the guy waiting for these small, nearly one-off production companies to not have backorders, I hope that you are very patient. Welcome to the world of aftermarket tuning!

And Shiv has done a hell of a lot of R&D on his product and deserves the recognition that he gets for that, and for his involvement with this board.

However, Shiv will move on when the next potential market opens up and he will all-but disappear here. Again, this isn't an attack, this is just a fact since Shiv throws himself into a project and he is only one person. This has been seen in the Subaru and EVO markets, and will in fact happen here as well.

Anyhow, best of luck to everyone modifying their cars. Turbochargers are addictive little buggers. In the end, you will end up spending way more than you ever planned once you start down this road.

OpenFlash · 03-12-2007, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveff4

However, Shiv will move on when the next potential market opens up and he will all-but disappear here. Again, this isn't an attack, this is just a fact since Shiv throws himself into a project and he is only one person. This has been seen in the Subaru and EVO markets, and will in fact happen here as well.

I have a problem with this comment. Especially considering that I just came back from dyno tuning 2 evos and 1 subaru this morning. The mistake a lot of people make is equating one's participation on an internet forum with the kind of business that they actually conduct. We still tune more Evos and Subarus on a weekly basis, than BMWs. Spending most of my time on the BMW board now is a reflection of where we are with the product line (just starting). Once it's done, you can bet that my post count will taper off just like it has on the evo and subaru forum. But to say that we still dont support ALL these markets or actively offer products and services couldn't be further from the truth.

Regards,
shiv

steveff4 · 03-12-2007, 06:02 PM

Sorry, Shiv, but I guess I wasn't clear in my comment. Note that I said "he will-all but disappear HERE". I wasn't inferring that you don't support those other markets, but you certainly aren't as involved with their online communities as you once were and as you are now. I mean you posted 9 minutes after I did!

Again, sorry if I was misunderstood. It's certainly easy to do on any forum.

OpenFlash · 03-12-2007, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveff4

Sorry, Shiv, but I guess I wasn't clear in my comment. Note that I said "he will-all but disappear HERE". I wasn't inferring that you don't support those other markets, but you certainly aren't as involved with their online communities as you once were and as you are now. I mean you posted 9 minutes after I did!

Again, sorry if I was misunderstood. It's certainly easy to do on any forum.

Hi Steve,
We support the evo and subaru markets on a daily basis. Just not necessary through online forums as much as we used to. Signal to noise ratio on those forums tends to get really rotten as the years go on. It no longer become an effective means to offer support.
cheers,
shiv

steveff4 · 03-12-2007, 06:17 PM

I understand your point completely, particularly since I'm friends with an aftermarket company owner-operator and I know what he goes through. BUT, the perception you have given many of the people on this board is that you will be this involved in the future -- and that's all that they have and are basing your interest and support on now.

Oh well, I am not trying to attack you, Shiv. I just think that some people are too easily cowed and gullible sometimes, and need to open their eyes. Again, I think you have a great product and I don't doubt that I may buy it in the future.

OpenFlash · 03-12-2007, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveff4

I understand your point completely, particularly since I'm friends with an aftermarket company owner-operator and I know what he goes through. BUT, the perception you have given many of the people on this board is that you will be this involved in the future -- and that's all that they have and are basing your interest and support on now.

We will always provide this level of support. But the level of disclosure when it comes to development will undoubtedly decrease. This is because the development will eventually come to a halt. Until the next version/revision of the car that is. Along those lines, we're still eagerly waiting for the evo x.

Shiv

dolby · 03-12-2007, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveff4

The most ironic part about this thread is that a board user independently bought a product and posted his experience with it, and is, for the most part, attacked because it's inferior, less-cost-effective, and unsafe.

Independent? I seriously doubt it.

lkevinl · 03-13-2007, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dolby

Independent? I seriously doubt it.

+1

SamBoler · 03-13-2007, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dolby

Independent? I seriously doubt it.

Incorrect assumption.

Been working for awhile, about half of the legal drinking age in America.

From the whole post, that is the only word that you can comment on? Says a lot about you

SamBoler · 03-13-2007, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lkevinl

Enjoying too much free time? Your post count is growing at a phenomenal rate. Quite impressive.

The weekend

Replying as deemed necessary.

SamBoler · 03-13-2007, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveff4

The most ironic part about this thread is that a board user independently bought a product and posted his experience with it, and is, for the most part, attacked because it's inferior, less-cost-effective, and unsafe. The proCEDE fans proceed to try to pummel everyone into submission that there is only one answer.

Like making a wrong turn and ending up in bad neighborhood.

Nothing has been confirmed about being unsafe.

Quote:

Someone on page 7 posted that he doesn't think that the business deals (gone bad) help the consumer, but I think this is absolutely wrong. If anything, some of it likely helps explain why Shiv went to different hardware -- although you do have to make some assumptions and read between the lines. Because of how this has played out, it appears that the XEDE is still a very viable option for any 335i tuners.

It absolutely helps the consumer by providing more options. For example, the xede vs procede no matter what it is labeled under, and others as certainly there will be more.

Viable enough for other companies to acknowledge this gizmo box and bring it to the marketplace.

Quote:

For the guy waiting for these small, nearly one-off production companies to not have backorders, I hope that you are very patient. Welcome to the world of aftermarket tuning!

Quote:

And Shiv has done a hell of a lot of R&D on his product and deserves the recognition that he gets for that, and for his involvement with this board.

However, Shiv will move on when the next potential market opens up and he will all-but disappear here. Again, this isn't an attack, this is just a fact since Shiv throws himself into a project and he is only one person. This has been seen in the Subaru and EVO markets, and will in fact happen here as well.

Anyhow, best of luck to everyone modifying their cars. Turbochargers are addictive little buggers. In the end, you will end up spending way more than you ever planned once you start down this road.

This post was not intended to put-down Shiv, his company or product in any way nor have I done so. There might have been a joke or two but that is exactly that, a joke. Just passing along some collective information.

Turbos are very fun. Got a nice single in the Supra

docbeemer · 03-13-2007, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I wanted a product with more control (more inputs/outputs). Not more control over the product. But yes, I agree with you, this pissing match really doesn't belong online. Perhaps I just got out of the wong side of the bed this morning.

-shiv

OK so I'm only one potential customer. But I must say that this "pissing match" is exactly what we need so that we can cut through any hype, hyperbole, marketing strategies, or sour grapes of the various product vendors and come to the most educated decision of what to buy. So, for me at least, I like to hear from all sides.

It's a pity that others in the forum have to resort to personal attacks with language that is just uncool (you know who you are- even if you do have 100's or 1000's of posts more than me, it doesn't give you any more credibility when you behave like 5 year olds). Surely we can have informed debates based on facts and underpinned by our collective passion for our BMWs???

modvp · 03-13-2007, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamBoler

+1

It is great that people are providing real information about the product and competitor's product.

At first, this was the procede is the greatest campaign and bash all others. But seems people have put their pride aside and this is becoming a proper discussion with slight twists.

Prior to purchasing the product, it was firmly believing in RDsport but with the information provided from Xede, I hope that this is the Xede and the tuning will prevail.

After doing a little digging, when Vishnu was 'beta' testing the xede, the power it made is about the same as the Black Box is putting down now. So with the tuning capabilities of RDsport and presuming support of Xede or whomever if necessary (till confirmed), if/when the decision to upgrade the map/program, it will be done with all confidence.

You just won't give up eh? Why would someone pay for a product that is being advertised to produce less power for more money and no apparent support?

dolby · 03-13-2007, 07:51 AM

Unless this "black box" actually by some freak of nature gave birth to you, there is little choice but to think you have some vested interest in defending and promoting a product so diligently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamBoler

Incorrect assumption.

Been working for awhile, about half of the legal drinking age in America.

From the whole post, that is the only word that you can comment on? Says a lot about you

modvp · 03-13-2007, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Active Autowerke

Hey Guys,

You guys had a busy weekend. Too many pages to read. Someone give me a little summary please.

p.s. Goodmorning Lachlan , how are you sir?

Shiv did the most of the R&D on developing the XEDE in the US.

Limitations were found…so he developed a new product, the PROcede.

The guys down at the bottom (or is it down under) is not liking the sour grape taste in their mouth…now that Shiv has moved on and is on his own.

SamBoler is promoting a product (The rebirth of the antiquated xede) that is adverted to produce less power for more money.

WilyB · 03-13-2007, 08:51 AM

The part I dislike is the apparent attempts by the XEDE community to access Shiv’s data and maps, either through his employees or, worse, through the beta testers.

steveff4 · 03-13-2007, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WilyB

The part I dislike is the apparent attempts by the XEDE community to access Shiv’s data and maps, either through his employees or, worse, through the beta testers.

Huh? Do you really think this stuff isn't basically open-source once it gets out? And really, as end-users, this is the beauty of this type of aftermarket tuning. Once Shiv has "finished" development on the 335i, the users can continue developing the maps. That's how it works.

SamBoler · 03-13-2007, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbeemer

OK so I'm only one potential customer. But I must say that this "pissing match" is exactly what we need so that we can cut through any hype, hyperbole, marketing strategies, or sour grapes of the various product vendors and come to the most educated decision of what to buy. So, for me at least, I like to hear from all sides.

It's a pity that others in the forum have to resort to personal attacks with language that is just uncool (you know who you are- even if you do have 100's or 1000's of posts more than me, it doesn't give you any more credibility when you behave like 5 year olds). Surely we can have informed debates based on facts and underpinned by our collective passion for our BMWs???

SamBoler · 03-13-2007, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by modvp

You just won't give up eh? Why would someone pay for a product that is being advertised to produce less power for more money and no apparent support?

If someone is attacking my decision then I am going to explain it and not going to 'give up'. Or is it you guys not 'giving up' on trying to implement that there is only 'one almighty', are you and others missionaries by chance?

If this becomes an open discussion which some people are allowing it to be then I will read on and dig further about the products. Information is what this is about and not your opinions.

Have I forced anyone to buy this product? Did ever I say that this is much better than the Proceed? Did I not give credit where credit is due?

SamBoler · 03-13-2007, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dolby

Unless this "black box" actually by some freak of nature gave birth to you, there is little choice but to think you have some vested interest in defending and promoting a product so diligently.

You are like a woman, always missing the point.

Where in my reply to you does anything have to do with the product? Are you so emotionally charged that you are unable to differenciate between the product and myself?

RiXst3r · 03-13-2007, 01:18 PM

SamBoler,

I am not trying to be rude, but it would seem that you have something to gain by advertising for this "Black Box", considering you have it plastered all over your sig, and your first post sounds like an infomercial...

no offense, just telling you why some people might be attacking you.
If I was you, I would just enjoy your car, and your new found extra horses, and forget about trying to please everyone.

You dont have to "give up", but you also dont need to feel like you have to justify your purchase to yourself, or anyone. Its your car, its your money, its your choice. And everyone should respect your decision.

03-12-2007, 05:50 PM	#156
steveff4 Private First Class 24 Rep 144 Posts Drives: 2013 BMW M3 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: South Jersey iTrader: (0)	The most ironic part about this thread is that a board user independently bought a product and posted his experience with it, and is, for the most part, attacked because it's inferior, less-cost-effective, and unsafe. The proCEDE fans proceed to try to pummel everyone into submission that there is only one answer. Someone on page 7 posted that he doesn't think that the business deals (gone bad) help the consumer, but I think this is absolutely wrong. If anything, some of it likely helps explain why Shiv went to different hardware -- although you do have to make some assumptions and read between the lines. Because of how this has played out, it appears that the XEDE is still a very viable option for any 335i tuners. For the guy waiting for these small, nearly one-off production companies to not have backorders, I hope that you are very patient. Welcome to the world of aftermarket tuning! And Shiv has done a hell of a lot of R&D on his product and deserves the recognition that he gets for that, and for his involvement with this board. However, Shiv will move on when the next potential market opens up and he will all-but disappear here. Again, this isn't an attack, this is just a fact since Shiv throws himself into a project and he is only one person. This has been seen in the Subaru and EVO markets, and will in fact happen here as well. Anyhow, best of luck to everyone modifying their cars. Turbochargers are addictive little buggers. In the end, you will end up spending way more than you ever planned once you start down this road. __________________ 2013 BMW M3 Coupe : Interlagos Blue : Silver Norvillo : 6MT : Competition Package : ACM exhaust - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - pics of M3
	Appreciate 0 Quote

03-12-2007, 06:02 PM	#158
steveff4 Private First Class 24 Rep 144 Posts Drives: 2013 BMW M3 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: South Jersey iTrader: (0)	Sorry, Shiv, but I guess I wasn't clear in my comment. Note that I said "he will-all but disappear HERE". I wasn't inferring that you don't support those other markets, but you certainly aren't as involved with their online communities as you once were and as you are now. I mean you posted 9 minutes after I did! Again, sorry if I was misunderstood. It's certainly easy to do on any forum. __________________ 2013 BMW M3 Coupe : Interlagos Blue : Silver Norvillo : 6MT : Competition Package : ACM exhaust - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - pics of M3
	Appreciate 0 Quote

03-12-2007, 06:17 PM	#160
steveff4 Private First Class 24 Rep 144 Posts Drives: 2013 BMW M3 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: South Jersey iTrader: (0)	I understand your point completely, particularly since I'm friends with an aftermarket company owner-operator and I know what he goes through. BUT, the perception you have given many of the people on this board is that you will be this involved in the future -- and that's all that they have and are basing your interest and support on now. Oh well, I am not trying to attack you, Shiv. I just think that some people are too easily cowed and gullible sometimes, and need to open their eyes. Again, I think you have a great product and I don't doubt that I may buy it in the future. __________________ 2013 BMW M3 Coupe : Interlagos Blue : Silver Norvillo : 6MT : Competition Package : ACM exhaust - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - pics of M3
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03-13-2007, 08:51 AM	#171
WilyB Captain 19 Rep 671 Posts Drives: E92 335 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA iTrader: (0) Garage List 1991 BMW 325iC [0.00] 2008 Porsche Cayenn ... [0.00] 1990 Ferrari Mondial T [0.00]	The part I dislike is the apparent attempts by the XEDE community to access Shiv’s data and maps, either through his employees or, worse, through the beta testers.
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03-13-2007, 01:18 PM	#176
RiXst3r 274 Rep 6,510 Posts Drives: M235i Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Ohio iTrader: (14)	SamBoler, I am not trying to be rude, but it would seem that you have something to gain by advertising for this "Black Box", considering you have it plastered all over your sig, and your first post sounds like an infomercial... no offense, just telling you why some people might be attacking you. If I was you, I would just enjoy your car, and your new found extra horses, and forget about trying to please everyone. You dont have to "give up", but you also dont need to feel like you have to justify your purchase to yourself, or anyone. Its your car, its your money, its your choice. And everyone should respect your decision.
	Appreciate 0 Quote