[WilyB]

b18b1ex:

I believe the only tuner associated with BMW is ALPINA. DINAN has no formal relationship with either BMW AG or BMW NA Inc.

I worked at Dinan for over 4 years as the regional Sales manager, I handled the signing and parts distribution to the various dealerships and independent shops.

There is no written or verbal contract between Dinan and BMWNA. There is an understanding that Dinan will match BMW's warranty year for year mile for mile on any Dinan parts and consequential damages.

BMW does not buy parts for their dealers. The consumer buys the parts from the dealer with Dinan as the distributer. The distribution contracts are all independently signed by the owner of the dealer or indy shop.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/sho...d.php?t=107588 Post #33

See also Post #31

clarify a common misconception about Dinan and BMW (BMW Germany and BMW North America; not independant BMW franchised dealers). There's no formal or informal relationship between Dinan and BMW or BMW NA. Dinan does have contractual relationships with its' dealers, which include over 100 franchised BMW dealers (obviously, only a minority of BMW dealers are also Dinan dealers), and independant automotive repair/service business's, spread across the U.S. and Canada. In North America, BMW dealers do have a contractual relationship with BMW NA (the exclusive distributor of BMW auto's and products here); but that has nothing to do with Dinan.

So, once again, it's important to understand that Dinan's business model, including its' product warranties, are between Dinan and its' authorized Dinan dealers; and has nothing to do with BMW Germany or BMW NA. Nothing. Those independant BMW dealers can and do offer non BMW products (not just Dinan, BTW). It's a seperate revenue/profit center for them. There's nothing BMW or BMW NA can do about that. Nothing. If they choose, a BMW dealer can sell and service any AM products; and they, along with the mfgr's/distributor's of such products, are solely responsible for installation, warranty claims, and servicing; not BMW or BMW NA (unless the AM products are BMW products).

Part of the dealer agreement between Dinan and its' dealers is a minimum Dinan parts inventory that must be maintained at the dealer. That, and an installation/servicing competency regarding Dinan products (Dinan provides training to its' dealers concerning this; my Dinan dealer often goes to periodic Dinan training sessions that are conducted around the U.S.). Usually, a BMW dealer who becomes a Dinan dealer, will designate one of their service dept. SA's and/or tech's as a Dinan Representative. This is the person who co-ordinates the sale/installation/servicing of Dinan products purchased by a BMW owner/customer. The acquisition of, and payment for, non BMW AM products is between the BMW dealer and the car owner; it never involves BMW or BMW NA.

Last, but not least, is the issue of warranty claims on malfunctioning components. The BMW dealer determines where the warranty applies; either BMW NA, or the AM mgfr. For example, you load up your new BMW with Dinan performance components. The drivers power seat mechanism stops working. The BMW warranty covers that; not Dinan. On the other hand, a shock absorber, purchased/installed as part of a Dinan suspension pkg, goes bad. The BMW dealer replaces it and Dinan's warranty covers it. BMW would have nothing to do with it. Are there gray areas, where it might be difficult to determine what component failed and why?? Of course. Can the poor customer get caught in the middle when the Dealer, BMW NA, and Dinan can't agree on where the warranty applies?? Common sense tells me that can certainly happen; although I'm not aware of any such incidence, directly or indirectly. I am aware, where a "fault" argument has occurred, Dinan just stepped up and took care of it. I've also experienced this directly. Dinan's dealer relationships are crucial to its' business model, so when push comes to shove, Dinan does what it needs to do.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

We have done periodic leakdown tests of the engine. We have tested free-play on the turbos. We have measured heat accumulation in the cylinder head and exhaust gas temp during sustained loading conditions. The later is the reason we implement a boost decay that is a function of average torque output (not IAT, oil or coolant temp). You see, with a good piggy, there are things we can do that simply cannot be done by remapping the factory ECU. We can implement logic that is more suitable for the extra 100whp we are trying to support. Logic that simply doesn't exist in the factory ROM file, regardless of the hex data in the tables. Tearing down a perfectly good engine is a bit extreme. I don't think anyone has done that. It's one thing to do that on a compromised motor in an effort to isolate the first point of failure. Doing it on a healthy motor is just a waste of time.




shiv

The things you can do don't neccessarilly need to be done by the ECU, because those are catch-phrases and hooks needed to get your piggy to work, there is no need to fool it!

The bold text(above) is a nice sounding statement, worded cleaverly... but completly moot! And you know it!

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by b18b1ex

Your right I'm speculating, I'm speculating that DINAN has been around for years, I'm speculating that they have been the premier BMW tuner for years, I'm speculating that BMW shares information and test data with them, and I'm speculating that BMW allows their cars to carry that BADGE for no reason. Some of you are speculating that a couple of dyno tests without a failure or a one or two cars with 30k is a successful test, maybe that is a $10-$12k speculation some don't want to take. Information is great, the sense to read it make good decisions, even better!

I would go as far as to speculate that the other tuners I named (Quattro GmbH, Steeda, Mugen, SVT, Cosworth, OR Subaru Tecnica International (STI)) are the best at their respective makes. That being said let me qualify that statement, by best I mean the best useable power, driveablity, and longevity. There will always be someone who pushes the envelop and puts out more power, but there are costs to that and the greatest one is premature failure.

You don't have to sway me, you must convince only yourself. I hope that people looking for options weigh everything when doing so.

+10


You have to understand though, many don't care about longevity, because they only leased their BMW, so they wan't to play like a grown up, but hide their piggy like a child from the dealer. Then sell it when their done!

They want no responsibility!

[b18b1ex]

Originally Posted by WilyB

b18b1ex:

I believe the only tuner associated with BMW is ALPINA. DINAN has no formal relationship with either BMW AG or BMW NA Inc.



See also Post #31

Fair enough. However, DINAN's then informal relationship, respect in the tuner market, and background in tuning BMW's is not in dispute, and I would take experience and reputation over any of these untested piggys.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Garrett

The things you can do don't neccessarilly need to be done by the ECU, because those are catch-phrases and hooks needed to get your piggy to work, there is no need to fool it!

The bold text(above) is a nice sounding statement, worded cleaverly... but completly moot! And you know it!

You're completely wrong. And I don't even know where to be begin. What you basically did was the internet equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and chanted 'Lalalalala'.

shiv

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Hey bro, Like I have said, you know what you know and what you have done up to this point is remarkable for a piggyback. But I also learned alot from discusing these things with Jim Conforti on the ole Vette and BMW forums and why he felt the need to crack the BMW's ECUs to get complete control over these sophisticated BMW engines. That was years ago and now their even more complicated.

It stems from the fact that a complete tune, you need to have control over all the function of the engine simultaneously, you just cant overwork a given dynamic to make up for other things.

If you don't know, don't ask me.... because I wouldn't have a clue. But it's safe to say you don't have access to 50% of what Dinan does.

Do you even have control of throttle response..?

-Garrett

In response to the bold print... you said it, I didn't.

in response to the red print... yes, I do. And as of 4 days ago, we've improved upon it even further. And at no time was it ever worse than stock

Shiv

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

You're completely wrong. And I don't even know where to be begin. What you basically did was the internet equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and chanted 'Lalalalala'.

shiv

Really...?

Why would a stock ECU be looking of variables for additional 80hp maps..? Which you basically said it can't do...! And your correct! But it's basically moot!

...Throttle

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Really...?


Why would a stock ECU be looking of variables for additional 80hp maps..? Which you basically said it can't do...! Your correct! But it's moot!

I don't even understand your question. What are 'variables for additional 80hp maps?"


-shiv

[WilyB]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

in response to the red print... yes, as of 4 days ago, I do.

Wow... I feel good stuff coming out soon!

Cool, I got promoted.

[Critter Fixer]

I find myself skipping down to shivs superhero picture just to see the things he says!

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I don't even understand your question. What are 'variables for additional 80hp maps?"

No, offcoarse you don't...

I'm not a tuner, so you can play me out all you want on your vernacular. But a "map" is what you refer to as:

You see, with a good piggy, there are things we can do that simply cannot be done by remapping the factory ECU. We can implement logic that is more suitable for the extra 100whp we are trying to support. Logic that simply doesn't exist in the factory ROM file, regardless of the hex data in the tables.

Sounds really good doesn't it...? Why would that logic need to exsist in the factory ROM file..? Obviously you can flash a Read Only Memory file, but what logic are you talking about? R u saying the ECU cannot support a 100hp gain?

Or was it cleaverly worded that way with... "we are trying to support" ..? Sounds to me your saying the ECU can't do this, but we can. When an ECU approach wouldn't have the need for it to begine with.

[DrDomer]

Maybe the way the ECU was designed wasn't with 400HP in mind? I'm not a tuner, and I'm not very smart, but you could reason that if BMW was designing a 400HP version of the N54 they may start from scratch with the ECU, and not simply reprogram it. Even Dinan implies there were limitations to what they could do "safely". Maybe there are limitations to a direct flash in this case. I dunno. Again, this is where a separate forum would be helpful so you don't have to read my ignorant posts.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Garrett

No, offcoarse you don't...

I'm not a tuner, so you can play me out all you want on your vernacular. But a "map" is what you refer to as:

Garret... I'm not trying to play you around with my 'vernacular'. But what you did was get involved in a tuning debate. When the person you are debating with says things that you don't understand, your response shouldn't be 'you're playing me'. It should be to try to understand what he's saying. If you can't do this given your level of knowledge on the subject, that's cool. All you have to do is ask me to elaborate and I will. Just try to be open-minded about it and not assume that I'm trying to deceive you with BS.

Why would that logic need to exsist in the factory ROM file..?

The same reason the factory ECU is detuned. It's just not necessary given it's job. Out of the box, it's job is to support a relatively modest 300bhp. And it does this well. The problem with supporting 400bhp is that it requires some extra control to do it right and as safely as possible. In the case of the PROcede, we implemented the following features:

1) RPM based slew rates. This controls the rate of boost rise with respect to desired boost pressure. This allows us to make all that torque (up to 150lbft more than stock in some instances) while still retaining drivability.

2) Time based boost target. This feature actually adjusts boost level with respect to historical boost level during the last X seconds of operation. The idea behind this is to prevent excessive heat build-up which, gone unchecked, would result in knock retard which would result in gradually increasing EGTs which would result in something important eventually melting. The factory ECU attempts to do this reactively by monitoring oil temp and AIT (air intake temp). But oil and AIT temps aren't great measuring stick.

3) Fuel enrichments and dynamic timing trims. Under sudden changes of boost/load, we implement fuel and timing strategies designed to deter knock. This means we pull out extra timing during load swings and slowly decay this extra chunk of retard back in as load is stabilized. As for fuel, we trigger enrichments during the same condition. This fueling strategy is not unusual and is done by factory ECU. The difference is that they are usually compromised due to emission compliance requirements.

There are 3 or 4 more unique features I can list as well. But I'll stop here just in case you think the ones I mentioned are bogus and unnecessary. If you want to hear it, let me know. If you want to believe that somehow they are already incorporated in the factory ECU and implementing them in the PROcede is redundant, that's cool too.

Shiv

[cycler]

Originally Posted by Orb

This has been posted in general by Stan@Dinan but should be here: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106956

Warning

We have recently heard of some tuners that are thinking of adding a piggyback ECU on top of the Dinan 335i software package, to further increase boost. THIS IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS!!! We at Dinan cannot express how dangerous this is to the motor and turbo's. The turbo's are too small and cannot handle this much extra boost, and either the motor or turbochargers or both will fail. Also the Dinan and BMW factory warranties will be voided because of this.

Dinan engineers have put months into developing software that balances adding extra boost and having factory like reliability. To have the ability to add this much extra horsepower onto the 335i will require larger turbo’s, a better intercooler and oil cooler. Even some modifications to the block might be needed in order to increase torsional rigidity with the increased power.

We are currently developing additional products that will produce more power safely. These include middle exhaust, Intercooler, Cold air intake, bigger turbochargers and stronger engine components.

The middle exhaust and intercooler is almost done and will likely put the engine output over 400hp safely. Additional products will follow. We highly recommend that you wait for the proper engineering and durability tests to be completed so your car will be reliable and give you years of trouble free enjoyment.

When are you guys going to come out with a suspension kit for us xi guys. I have an e92 335xi and the gap in the front wheels is so big I can probably get $10K a month in NYC for letting someone use it as a parking spot. That was a quote by the way from Howie Long making fun of Michael Strahans front tooth gap

[Lane]

I would have thought the perfectly ok cam timing for 300hp is not at its best at 400hp.

Vishnu has been claiming that the digital I/O s would be of use at altering cam timing. Now they are saying that the stock cam timing works well at higher hp levels as well. However, I'm a bit sceptic. Perhaps they have not tested it at close to the 400whp? Or at least having more cam lift would be needed. In this case increasing lift, i.e. changing cams for N54 would be a good idea since there is no problem with not having enough power at the low end.

[ohsnap]

Originally Posted by edgarj

Another "sky is falling" thread with little merit beyond Dinan's largely unrelated experience with non-F/I BMW's. I seriously doubt that their R&D is as substantial as they claim, and if lengthy R&D was their focus, it's funny that they waited almost a year before even procuring an N54 dev platform. Maybe they were busy familiarizing themselves with turbo literature and collaborating with Nasa on instruments with which to test this alien induction method. Regardless, this type of post is probably just a marketing device, but even at best it's speculation as Dinan would readily produce documents showing turbo failure revealed during their extensive R&D process such evidence existed. This totally contrived theme is why I hate this forum. It's great for the rare novel post, but for the most part its just polluted with sensational propaganda with clear motive. I'll post again when my turbo dies.
And the argument that stress testing an engine by sustained stress followed by tear-down is subject to the same weakness of "you can test one car and claim that the tune is stable but we all know that the fuel pump is a minority failure part".... Cyclic is indeed a great way to describe the totally speculative criticism being spit on Dinan's behalf. Reinforcing your novice perspective on a specific automotive tuning platform by citing your experience (or your parent's, LOL) in mechanical engineering (of nuclear Submarines, no less) is the epitome of the e90post tuning troll. I cure disease by designing vaccines for a living, so I must have insight into all health-related debates, right? My dad's a mechanical engineer, so be ready for some seriously pithy insight on turbo longevity as my next topic of extreme, factually embellished, pontification.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Perhaps the best post on the year.

so true.. after reading this debacle, edgarj has summed it up best

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

Huh? He said piggyback. I think you own a flash.. anyway.. Carry on.

Ultimately, this is a way for many to waste time. Rarely, we get info that is proven and useful. I still find it entertaining, and at times funny.

Maybe we should have a portion of the forum that is only open to a select few, but is viewable to all. That way, the people that can really contribute don't have to read 20 posts of drivel like mine.

I thought my point was clear but apparently not. I was just pointing out that it always turns into "my piggyback is better" no worries life goes on.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Piggyback is not "tuning" ... What Shiv has "tuned" is a box with a harness that attaches to an engine!

Explain to all of us what the "tuner world" is..? Weekends of Californication at the dragstrip..? These are not professional tunes. Those cost THOUDANDS of dollars.... get off your high horse!

Have you ever tuned a car? If so, what and how?

It's okay to have an opinion. But when it's based upon a complete lack of understanding, it's going to be questioned. This post, in particular, hints at a lack of understanding. Not only of tuning fundamentals but also a disconcerting myopia with regards to the tuning industry.

Shiv

[e.n335]

This thread went completely off-topic. It started with the fact that Dinan strongly recommends to don't tune their ECU mappings and we are now in a piggyback vs. ECU flash discussion.

The PROcede as every piggyback can add functionality compared to an ECU flash. I'm sure Shiv does his best to further develop the PROcede and as of now it seems to be a good piggyback and for sure the most sophisticated one you can buy as of today.

Everyone who bought the PROcede already should support Shiv's further develoment to get the best out of it. The tuning has achieved a really high quality level already.

ECU flashes have downsides as well. A piggyback with the quality of a very good ECU flash would be my preferred product. Worth to support it for a while .

[lndshrk]

Originally Posted by e.n335

A piggyback with the quality of a very good ECU flash would be my preferred product. Worth to support it for a while .

Unfortunately that is an impossible wish.

(Something about.. if wishes were horses.. then paupers would ride)

Piggybacks were used on the 335i because no one could GET into the ECU.

The ECU is secured with 2 RSA keys, a 512 bit and a 1024 bit.

It uses a secure Tricore microprocessor.

Well, now the best tuners CAN get into the box.

(I could give you a 3 page post-doc level dissertation on this - only to waste
the next 5 weeks defending it from attack by people - I won't - my time is far
too valuable )

So, I'll just say this and leave it.

A piggyback cannot do what a reflash does.

It will never happen.

End.

I'm not going to get into the back and forth here - suffice to say that the
advice given by Dinan (in essence "pick one") is solid advice.

VERY solid advice.

Jim C.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by lndshrk

Unfortunately that is an impossible wish.

(Something about.. if wishes were horses.. then paupers would ride)

Piggybacks were used on the 335i because no one could GET into the ECU.

The ECU is secured with 2 RSA keys, a 512 bit and a 1024 bit.

It uses a secure Tricore microprocessor.

Well, now the best tuners CAN get into the box.

(I could give you a 3 page post-doc level dissertation on this - only to waste
the next 5 weeks defending it from attack by people - I won't - my time is far
too valuable )

So, I'll just say this and leave it.

A piggyback cannot do what a reflash does.

It will never happen.

End.

I'm not going to get into the back and forth here - suffice to say that the
advice given by Dinan (in essence "pick one") is solid advice.

VERY solid advice.

Jim C.

Impressive posting.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by lndshrk

Unfortunately that is an impossible wish.

Jim,
Are you saying that you can't get a quality tune out of a piggyback?
-shiv